-
Welcome back Guest! Did you know you can mentor other members here at H-M? If not, please check out our Relaunch of Hobby Machinist Mentoring Program!
How common is it for a machinist (by trade) to not know how to thread on a lathe?
- Thread starter strantor
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2012
- Messages
- 630
But to be fair, that is probably the same thing that the people who chased threads by hand said when all the new kids could only do it with one of those newfangled screw cutting lathes that "do it automatically for you".
And the same thing the people who scraped surfaces said to the new kids that only knew how to use a surface grinder.
The list goes on.
Technologies change. Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse -- that is a different issue. When people create a training program (or any other education) they have to make a choice, either teach the new ways and drop the old ways or make the training longer and longer to teach all the technologies new and old. Can you jam everything that an apprentice learned in their program over 5 years into a 3 month "old time skills" section? Think you will have a lot of people who will want to sign up for a 12 year apprenticeship program? Something has to be taken out to be able to put new material in the system.
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2012
- Messages
- 2,220
I think that the term "machinist" is at issue here.
One who programs a robotic welding machine is no more a welder than a guy who programs a cnc machine is a machinist. It's a different skill set. It takes skills to program cnc and robotics....no doubt, absolutely, I can't do it,... I can, but very minimally. It's a different skill set, and should be labeled differently. I do understand that the new technology has replaced the true machinist, and training programs have to cater to where the jobs are. Try to have a cnc programmer repair an old part that needs to be refurbished, it's a different skill set.
In my day job, I'm a remodeling contractor. I've been doing it for 30 yrs now. There are some guys that call themselves carpenters that can't hang a cabinet straight or cope a crown molding. Those are the production guys, they build the condos and tract housing. I don't even want to compete with those guys in thier arena, even though i used to. Now, I go where those guys can't compete with me. I do all the fussy interior finishing, on mostly existing properties, that's where I shine, and get paid well to do it, because the truly skilled guys are far and few between.
Marcel
One who programs a robotic welding machine is no more a welder than a guy who programs a cnc machine is a machinist. It's a different skill set. It takes skills to program cnc and robotics....no doubt, absolutely, I can't do it,... I can, but very minimally. It's a different skill set, and should be labeled differently. I do understand that the new technology has replaced the true machinist, and training programs have to cater to where the jobs are. Try to have a cnc programmer repair an old part that needs to be refurbished, it's a different skill set.
In my day job, I'm a remodeling contractor. I've been doing it for 30 yrs now. There are some guys that call themselves carpenters that can't hang a cabinet straight or cope a crown molding. Those are the production guys, they build the condos and tract housing. I don't even want to compete with those guys in thier arena, even though i used to. Now, I go where those guys can't compete with me. I do all the fussy interior finishing, on mostly existing properties, that's where I shine, and get paid well to do it, because the truly skilled guys are far and few between.
Marcel
B
Bill Gruby
Forum Guest
Register Today
How I earned the title "Machinist" (4 years -- or 8000 hours.)
A true machinist (IMHO) would not pass off any operation to another unless it were absolutely necessary. By that I mean he can do it all. That is old school. Every operation was taught in the apprenticeship. The last part of my apprenticeship was to be handed a print. You go from there with no help. You performed all operations. That included threading and anything else that was on the print. You had 8 hrs. to complete it. Then and only then would you be allowed to take the Journeymans Exam.
"Billy G"
A true machinist (IMHO) would not pass off any operation to another unless it were absolutely necessary. By that I mean he can do it all. That is old school. Every operation was taught in the apprenticeship. The last part of my apprenticeship was to be handed a print. You go from there with no help. You performed all operations. That included threading and anything else that was on the print. You had 8 hrs. to complete it. Then and only then would you be allowed to take the Journeymans Exam.
"Billy G"
Last edited by a moderator:
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2012
- Messages
- 630
For the most part, what was once considered a machinist no longer really exists as a trade. The same can be said for patternmakers, blacksmiths, and many other trades from the past. Prototypes are made with CNC and rapid prototyping machines. Production is done by mass production machinery and starting to be done by CNC as the price comes down. Repair and replacement parts are not considered cost effective. Yes, there are still a few machinists around but as a whole, they will be gone by the end of the current generation.
Not in all ways, but there are some advantages to breaking away from the old apprenticeship and the associated naming systems though. The main focus of many of the trades was to keep people out rather than to bring people in. There were also a lot of abuses in the training once in. Some people got into fantastic programs that trained them in all aspects and others were in sweatshops where they were worked like dogs with little training other than sink or swim. In a previous life, I worked as an electrician and I got a lot of resentment from many co-workers and the boss that I took and passed the Journeyman test when they were still wanting me to be spending all my time digging ditches because I was cheaper than renting a trencher. It didn't take that long to get my fill and move on.
Few will be able to call themselves Machinists in the old sense of the trade. There are few programs to train them because companies don't want the "expense" of training and about the only way to get any training is through a program that the student has to pay up front for a long time before they have any marketable skills. Companies only want to hire those that already know the job.
The good side is that the skills are at least being kept alive by people for making their own stuff and picking up the scrap jobs that are too small of a market for the big companies to be interested in. But, they will be doing much that is outside of the scope of a Machinist. They will be designing their own products, doing their own marketing and sales, and doing their own customer support, along with all the boring stuff like bookkeeping, purchasing, payroll, shipping, and everything else involved. In other words, it will still be here but in a different form.
Not in all ways, but there are some advantages to breaking away from the old apprenticeship and the associated naming systems though. The main focus of many of the trades was to keep people out rather than to bring people in. There were also a lot of abuses in the training once in. Some people got into fantastic programs that trained them in all aspects and others were in sweatshops where they were worked like dogs with little training other than sink or swim. In a previous life, I worked as an electrician and I got a lot of resentment from many co-workers and the boss that I took and passed the Journeyman test when they were still wanting me to be spending all my time digging ditches because I was cheaper than renting a trencher. It didn't take that long to get my fill and move on.
Few will be able to call themselves Machinists in the old sense of the trade. There are few programs to train them because companies don't want the "expense" of training and about the only way to get any training is through a program that the student has to pay up front for a long time before they have any marketable skills. Companies only want to hire those that already know the job.
The good side is that the skills are at least being kept alive by people for making their own stuff and picking up the scrap jobs that are too small of a market for the big companies to be interested in. But, they will be doing much that is outside of the scope of a Machinist. They will be designing their own products, doing their own marketing and sales, and doing their own customer support, along with all the boring stuff like bookkeeping, purchasing, payroll, shipping, and everything else involved. In other words, it will still be here but in a different form.
Last edited:
When I was in the shops we called those machinist "CNC Machinist". Highly skilled craftsmen that I admired for their talent. Sounds like the shop you were in built specialize machinery. When I was working U of L Speed Engineering School they had manuel shop equipment. After I left Cincinnati Milacron donated a whole floor of new CNC equipment for the engineering students back in the 1970's. Just my luck.
B
Bill Gruby
Forum Guest
Register Today
David;
I must respectfully disagree with that. You see, it took a man or woman to create the machine. It will always take one to fix them. Regardless of the type of machinery, manual or CNC or whatever the future holds you will still need the same types of skills to do the job. I do agree the manual machinist is losing ground, but he will never be gone.
"Billy G"
I must respectfully disagree with that. You see, it took a man or woman to create the machine. It will always take one to fix them. Regardless of the type of machinery, manual or CNC or whatever the future holds you will still need the same types of skills to do the job. I do agree the manual machinist is losing ground, but he will never be gone.
"Billy G"
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2012
- Messages
- 630
No, the task will go on. It is the machinist and other skilled trades people trained through apprenticeship that are gone. Going through a few classes at a tech school has little resemblance to the breadth of learning being immersed all day on the job and many nights with supplemental course work for 4 or 5 years that a traditional machinist went through just to get through the apprenticeship phase. Unfortunately, smart students are directed away from technical training as if it were "unworthy" and for people with less "potential." For the most part, the modern equivalent is being taught by people that are not really practicing a trade and the students are just reading about it and doing a few small projects in a lab rather than living through real jobs in the field. It is a horrible failing in the educational system and the corporate mentality that is too shortsighted to provide for the development of their own workforce by teaching what people really need to know to be successful in the field.
In a few years when the last of the practicing machinists, plumbers, masons, electricians and pretty much all the rest of the properly trained people have retired, we are going to see shortages and infrastructure problems on a massive scale. The only real hope is that the labor shortages in "blue collar" areas will drive the wages up to the point that it will attract people to the areas. If not that, then all we have left is opening up immigration to attract those trained elsewhere to fill the void.
In a few years when the last of the practicing machinists, plumbers, masons, electricians and pretty much all the rest of the properly trained people have retired, we are going to see shortages and infrastructure problems on a massive scale. The only real hope is that the labor shortages in "blue collar" areas will drive the wages up to the point that it will attract people to the areas. If not that, then all we have left is opening up immigration to attract those trained elsewhere to fill the void.
Apologies for straying a bit off topic. But this is exactly the "bill of goods" that has been sold to the public with regards to STEM (science, technology, engineering, and math). Young people look on the one hand at the experts wringing hands over the decline in the numbers of young workers going into technology. Then they look at the wages of people actually working in those jobs. Not only is it tough starting out, but almost everyone who makes a middle class wage ends up going into management or sales. If a young person is going to face that choice, why not short-cut the process and go for a business degree? It's not an foolish conclusion that companies are going to advance one's career as a manager based on management expertise over technical knowledge .
I personally know two different people who hung in there to get degrees in biotech (not sure exactly what specialty). Where I live is considered one of the better geographical areas for biotechnology start ups. Both ended up fleeing the area because the jobs available pay so little they either did better elsewhere in the USA, or left the field completely to get more money.
No answers here, just concluding that the poor wages in manufacturing mean there really aren't as many career opportunities in the field as we would like. It's sickening that so much knowledge is being lost, and many talented young people waste their abilities doing work they are not happy with or suited to.
Walt
Last edited:
I would never consider myself a machinist because I've known some outstanding ones that used to work for DuPont. Some of the things I saw those guys do 50 years ago makes me know not to even try to put myself in that category. But, I did learn enough from some of them to be able to operate my lathes to some extent, so I will just always say that I'm more of an operator.
However, the guy that taught me to run the lathe from my beginning, was very strong minded and determined that one of the first things I would need to learn was to cut threads. He wore me out making me learn to do that, pretty much from the start. That training has come in handy here on the farm many times over the years.
After building my wood working shop, I found an American planner at a lumber yard that was closing up and going out of business. I was able to buy it cheap, mostly because it was so old and heavy that most hobby shops couldn't handle it and set it up. Or maybe everyone else had better sense than to do that much work. It had flat belt pulleys that extended out on each side that ran counter shafts for the feed section and this monster took up more space than you can imagine. Before I bought it, I figured out a way to do away with the belts and pulleys by adding another motor to drive the feed section, which would make the whole unit a lot more compact. In making all these conversions, I ran in to holes in the frame where brackets were bolted on, that were threaded for 1/2"-12 bolts instead of our modern 1/2"-13. I had to use some of those holes for my conversion project and that presented no problem, since I was right at home with making any bolt needed. It was indeed a lot of work, but I don't have much money in it and that critter is a hoss. She'll take a saw mill board, up to 24" wide, and make it into a beautiful piece of lumber in just a few passes, with very little sanding needed.
Sorry, guess I got away from the machinist subject here, but my thinking is, it's very rewarding to dig in and learn to make threads since your lucky enough to own a lathe.
Jim Dunn
Harrington, Delaware
However, the guy that taught me to run the lathe from my beginning, was very strong minded and determined that one of the first things I would need to learn was to cut threads. He wore me out making me learn to do that, pretty much from the start. That training has come in handy here on the farm many times over the years.
After building my wood working shop, I found an American planner at a lumber yard that was closing up and going out of business. I was able to buy it cheap, mostly because it was so old and heavy that most hobby shops couldn't handle it and set it up. Or maybe everyone else had better sense than to do that much work. It had flat belt pulleys that extended out on each side that ran counter shafts for the feed section and this monster took up more space than you can imagine. Before I bought it, I figured out a way to do away with the belts and pulleys by adding another motor to drive the feed section, which would make the whole unit a lot more compact. In making all these conversions, I ran in to holes in the frame where brackets were bolted on, that were threaded for 1/2"-12 bolts instead of our modern 1/2"-13. I had to use some of those holes for my conversion project and that presented no problem, since I was right at home with making any bolt needed. It was indeed a lot of work, but I don't have much money in it and that critter is a hoss. She'll take a saw mill board, up to 24" wide, and make it into a beautiful piece of lumber in just a few passes, with very little sanding needed.
Sorry, guess I got away from the machinist subject here, but my thinking is, it's very rewarding to dig in and learn to make threads since your lucky enough to own a lathe.
Jim Dunn
Harrington, Delaware