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HSS Tool Holders -Question

Discussion in 'QUESTIONS & ANSWERS (Get Help Fast Here!)' started by bcall2043, May 9, 2012.

  1. bcall2043

    bcall2043 United States Active User Active Member

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    A little background:
    Some of us Hobby-Machinist located in the middle Tennessee area have been discussing possibly making a tangential tool holder as a group project. I have read good things about these and particularly the Diamond branded one that has been around for a long time and demands a rather high price. One of its most attractive features to me is the simple tool grinding method. It does require a special fixture to hold the tool bit that establishes the simple one ground facet on the HSS. I have what I believe is a Diamond clone (no markings on the tool) that I purchased at a used tool store but have never used it yet so have no experience with it.

    Yesterday I was looking at one of the hobby machinist magazines and noticed an ad for what appeared to be another version for sale at around 1/3 the cost of the Diamond brand tangential. A quick look at the provided link below determined it was not a tangential holder but something claimed to be new and better than other tool holders.

    http://www.wimberley-tools.com/index.cfm

    I went to bed last night thinking about this new tool and this morning did a quick search on this site which turned up nothing. At this point I thought I might ask you guys if any of you have used this "new" HSS tool holder and possibly the Diamond" holder and can provide any reasons one is better than the other.

    Thanks, Benny
     
  2. Earl

    Earl Active User Active Member

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    I have a diamond tool holder an use it for general turning. (mostly 416 stainless) I don't sharpen it very often and find that it works great for roughing. I switch to very sharp 3/8 HSS bits for the finish cuts. The diamond will do nice finishing cuts but seems to dull when I take heavy roughing cuts so it needs to be re-sharpened. The thing that I like is the ability to turn and face with the same bit. (just a little change in position).

    The Wimberley tool looks interesting. I think I will get one and give it a try.

    Earl
     
  3. FarFar

    FarFar Denmark Active User Active Member

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    It is a tangential tool holder the Wimberley and looking rather flimsy to my eyes.
    Use the search field on this site ((Tangential Tool holder))make one Yourself and tell us how it works
     
  4. swatson144

    swatson144 Global Moderator Staff Member Active Member

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    I don't really see any advantage of the wimberly over a regular HSS bit. 3/16"?

    My friend just bought a diamond and seems delighted with it. I'll give him a a couple months and see if he becomes uninfatuated with it. Funny thing is he is good at grinding tools and is just starting to get into inserts. The diamond makes sense since it is a flat and has a tool sharpening guide.

    I started making my own but think I'm going to scrap it and start again.
    nearlythere.JPG

    I suppose I should try it before I scrap it though.

    Steve

    nearlythere.JPG
     
  5. bcall2043

    bcall2043 United States Active User Active Member

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    FarFar,
    Thanks for the search tip. I used "Wimberley" for the search of the Hobby-Machinist site and had not used the word Tangential. I had been researching the tangential holders already and was looking for info on the new kid on the block. I did use your search terms on this site just now and found more information on the tangential. It is interesting that I don't recall the Hobby-Machinist threads showing up before. Must be getting old.

    Thanks, Benny
     
  6. 8ntsane

    8ntsane Active User Active Member

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  7. FarFar

    FarFar Denmark Active User Active Member

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    Hello Paul

    Are You still using the tool holder and how much time do You use for one resharpening?I use around three minutes for my 4 to 5 mm tool bitts from stopping lathe and running again.My toolbitts start 65 mm long loses 0.2 mm per sharpening and are useless when 25 mm long.100 Swedish (Fagersta WKE45) sharps for 7 dollars. Cheap I would say.
     
  8. 8ntsane

    8ntsane Active User Active Member

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    FarFar
    Niels, yes I still use the tool on a regular basis. I have been very happy with your tool design. I have no complaints at all with the tool holder. In fact, I was looking it over the other day, thinking I could easly machine up a couple of bolt on dove tails, so it could be allso used on my QCTP.I just may do that when I get some free time.
    But to your question, how much time to sharpen the cutting tool. I only use the grinding wheel for the final grind. I take most of it down with a belt sander , then the grinding wheel. Id say 5 mins time, and Im ready to go again.

    Many times if I need to resharpen, Ill just grab another tool cutter thats allready sharp, and swap that in, and Im ready to continue on with the job. I dont find sharpening time to bad at all. Its been a great tool for me, and glad I have it.
     
  9. FarFar

    FarFar Denmark Active User Active Member

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    Hello Paul

    Glad You still like and use the tool.
    I must be living in another time zone as it never occured to me that a belt sander can sharpen Hss.
    Can You buy belts that will cut Carbide?
    The beauty of the tangential system is that the clearance angles are given by the tool (important) and the rake angle (not very important) is done more than good enough by hand and eye.
    On my first model the toolbit was tilted 15 degrees and this gives 12 degree clearance angles on the two cutting edges.My latest has 12 degree tilt giving 9.5 degree clearance and I delude myself to believe it is better.But I am not certain.
     
  10. clevinski

    clevinski Active User Active Member

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    Farfar, I'm not sure how directly relevant it is, but the belt sander is great for fine sharpening and polishing. Though I haven't tried to sharpen cutting tools with it (yet!), I have a one-inch belt sander that I routinely use to sharpen knives, going through a series of grits from 80 down to 9 micron. Then I switch to leather belts, one with a 1 micron compound and the second with a 0.5 micron compound. It works great for knives, and the finish after the last leather belt is like glass. I was reading something about polishing mini-lathe gibs and thought the belt sander (with the leather belts only!) might be the way to go...

    Charlie
     
  11. swatson144

    swatson144 Global Moderator Staff Member Active Member

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    Belts are usually considered suboptimal for sharpening HSS lathe cutting tools. Great for roughing but not so great for finishing. If you look at a tool finished on a belt there is almost certainly a slight rundown edge where the belt piles up in front of the tool leaving it looking almost as if it was used on cast iron and not adequately resharpened. Even if you use the wheel you get a hollow grind with an eroded edge. Granted better sanders do a better job so it is possible that some do a perfect job.

    Many people do find that roughing on a belt sander is easier to keep everything square and then finishing on the grinder is easier with the shape already made.

    Not trying to say it's wrong. You having knife making equipment puts you on the high end of belt sanders. I just wanted to mention my opinion so that perhaps someone struggling to grind tools won't think their 4x36 belt is the silver bullet and still be disappointed in their ability. Easy test is a good hone then magnification.

    Steve
     
  12. 8ntsane

    8ntsane Active User Active Member

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    FarFar

    I have been using my belt sander to sharpen HSS since 1984
    I have done this for so long, that to me its the easyest, and fastest way for me. Yes you can do the same with carbide as well. Ive allways done this, and like it better. When I do touch up on the grinder wheel, its not on the front of the wheel. To me it tends to cut the radius of the wheel and not flat. So, when I do use the grinder, its on the side on the wheel so its flat.

    When shapening tool bits with the belt sander, if the cutting edge is the trailing edge, not the leading edge, you would find it cuts nice and clean , with out rounding over the edges. Way back in the late 70s I worked in a large machine shop, and thats were I picked up this habit. I use 40 grit for roughing, a well worn belt I might add, not a new one. And either 120 or 180 for finishing. Most of the time, like 95 per cent of the time, I dont need to touch the cutter on the grinder.

    Right or wrong, that is how I do it.
    I suppose that from being in a shop that used belt sanders to sharpen tooling, I just didnt know it right from wrong. For me, I will continue to re sharpen with belt sanders, it works for me.

    Try it, you might like it :whistle: And yes Niels, I still like the tool, and still use it often. The design of yours is a proven winner in my eyes, and wouldnt change it, but may copy any of your new designs ;)
    Back when I was lookin at these tool holders, I looked at many, and your design was what I thought was the best out there. And, I still do:biggrin:
     
  13. FarFar

    FarFar Denmark Active User Active Member

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    Hello Paul

    Thank You for the kind words and the very clear describtion of belt grinding the wrong way to avoid round edge .
    It had never occured to me on its own.
    I have some carbide sticks 5 by 5 mm and would like to try Your sharpening method,ie beltsander and a little diamond filing.Can You please show me a source of belts that will work on tungsten carbide?E bay is fine?

    Kind regards

    Niels
     
  14. bcall2043

    bcall2043 United States Active User Active Member

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    Thanks to everyone for your input. I have Googled for info and reviews of the Wimberley tool holder and found a few bits of info. The claim is that the Wimberley tool is easier to grind and takes less time to grind than the tangential tool. I don't have any experience with either one so don't see the projected savings in time for the Wimberley. I gather that some of you are like myself and don't see a great advantage to the Wimberley design which still requires grinding multple faces on the HSS tool while the tangential only requires one face to be ground. It still might be an interesting tool to try. If anyone tries one give it a review.

    I know, I should learn to grind tool bits by the book then this would not be an issue but then I would still want to grind less not more since I am lazy and don't like burned fingers.

    Thanks, Benny
     
  15. FarFar

    FarFar Denmark Active User Active Member

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    Hello Charlie

    Since childhood I have wondered what the leatherbelts hanging in the hair cut shops did.
    Now I know off couse: Sharpening the razor knives
    What kind of grinding materials would have been used?

    Niels
     
  16. ScrapMetal

    ScrapMetal United States Active User Active Member

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    Grinding material for razor strops? For my razor I just use it "dry" on the leather and have a linen strop for finishing it.

    -Ron
     
  17. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye Canada Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I made a tangential a while back and really like the way it cuts. There are a lot of ways to do it and you get to make up your own, as long as you make it rigid.

    I made mine to fit my QCTP and left as much mass as I could to help keep vibration down.
    P7020016b.jpg P7020014b.jpg P7020017b.jpg

    The clamping bolt is a 1/4-20 carriage bolt with the head thinned out to make room at the chuck. It's pretty easy to set it up at one angle that will do both turning and facing operations with no further adjustment.

    P7020016b.jpg P7020014b.jpg P7020017b.jpg
     
  18. swatson144

    swatson144 Global Moderator Staff Member Active Member

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    Wow Hawkeye that is pretty much exactly what I was planning for my 2nd version. I have a piece of 2" round in the mill squaring it off. For the same idea in holders. I have maybe .1" left to fly cut on the last side and then I'll have a piece of square stock to make it with. I'm thinking a wheel stud (with most the splines ground down) and a nut to secure the bit. Hardened and tough and not wanting to spin yet not much head in the way.

    I made one with dovetails for the QCTP but I didn't like it and it seemed pretty limited. By the time you get it cut down to where the tool needs to be there isn't as much meat left as I would like.

    I'm also toying with the idea of drilling a 5/16" blind hole on the opposite side from the bit for making cutters from carbide endmill shanks. Of course the hole would have the prerequisite angles and a smaller through hole. If that doesn't work out no harm done. It'd be nice to get another use from them. Who knows perhaps grinding an angle on a round tool will make a nice shear type finishing tool. If not making the end square is no problem.

    Steve
     
  19. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye Canada Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Steve, I like the idea of the wheel stud. Carriage bolts are pretty soft, although I haven't had any trouble with mine.
     
  20. swatson144

    swatson144 Global Moderator Staff Member Active Member

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    I couldn't find any small wheel studs. I even tried a motorcycle shop (4 wheelers) so I just went with 5/16" carriage bolt. The flange on the wheel studs is smaller than I remember and the knurled srction larger in OD also.

    It's coming along fine and all I have left to do is mill the notch so it'll fit the AXA tool holders, clean up the ends, and parkerize it.

    Steve
     
  21. Tenn

    Tenn United States Active User Active Member

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    I hate to sound stupid but exactly what is parkerizing and how do you do it ? I've heard it before but never really knew what it was or what it looks like. Any pics or is that relevant ? :dunno:
     
  22. swatson144

    swatson144 Global Moderator Staff Member Active Member

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    Parkerizing is a pretty safe and simple finishing process for ferrous metals . You can buy or make the solution and there are several types which give slight differences in color etc. I buy mine from Brownells. 1st step is bead blasting, then dip for about 15 mins in near boiling water and solution (follow instructions with solution), dry and oil.

    cropped.JPG

    This is something I did 10 or 20 years ago. It was a rusted hunk that was found in an old car trunk and given to a friend who owns a gun shop and then legally transferred to me. Notice the pitting even after bead blasting. It shoots well for what it is. I even did the bolt that was rusted into place, so not much worries over moving parts. It doesn't add anything but converts the surface.

    quickest example I could think of to get a picture of.

    Steve

    cropped.JPG
     
  23. Tenn

    Tenn United States Active User Active Member

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    Thanks Steve
    So basically a blackening process ? And surface protection ?
     
  24. swatson144

    swatson144 Global Moderator Staff Member Active Member

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    Yep. Basically a conversion that stops iron from looking for oxygen and holds oil well as an additional sealant. Another caveat is that it doesn't want to work on a smooth surface. That is no problem for me as my machining is seldom smooth.

    Steve
     
  25. swatson144

    swatson144 Global Moderator Staff Member Active Member

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    I just finished the thing and must be doing something wrong. I get better finishes with carbide tools even when taking wimpy bites.

    What.JPG
    I set the thing up and faced the piece to be sure of center and then took a .007 D.O.C. set for turning to shoulder. 1018 CRS which is often a little difficult to get a good finish on but this is my test piece and what good is getting a good finish on 12L14? I'll post more pictures of my setup on the tangential cutter but just to rule out lathe issues or extended to far etc.

    test.JPG

    After testing the tangential, I cut ~1/2" with a touched up import AR5, then swapped to a TCMT insert and cut abit more. So in the picture the cut on left was Tangential, middle TCMT insert, right end AR-5.

    So please look at the other pictures and see if any of you guys running the cutters sees my error.

    Steve

    What.JPG backend.JPG clamp.JPG slowend.JPG test.JPG
     
  26. Tony Wells

    Tony Wells United States Former Vice President Staff Member Administrator

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    I'm definitely not trying to be a wet blanket here, but I see an issue inherent in the tangential tool holder that will probably keep me from making one. I recognize and accept that a correctly sharpened HSS tool will curl off a beautiful chip, and is easy on the machine because it is a high positive tool. BUT....with the little to no radius on the flat ground HSS blank, there is no tool nose radius, and therefore there is a limit to the feedrate that will yield a smooth finish. As I understand it, the only sharpening or grinding done is to the top, or end, of the tool bit. In most cases where there is a shoulder to be turned to, a radius is very much desired in the corner, for strength. In fact, it is specified on most manufactured parts for that reason. Unless you put a radius on the tool blank, or are very good with both hands, there can be little to no radius in the corner. This needle sharp tool corner can make getting a cut-smooth surface difficult to impossible without slowing the feedrate to a crawl.

    My Disclaimer: I've only seen, but never cut with, a tangential tool holder.
     
  27. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye Canada Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Most of my HSS tool blanks are ground with a sharp corner on all sides. The one I happened to grab for the tangential bit has a slight radius on the corners. Resharpening the top face brings it back to that radius.

    For the sharp-cornered blanks, it is easy to lay the blank on your diamond hone with the working corner down and work in a radius down the full length.
     
  28. swatson144

    swatson144 Global Moderator Staff Member Active Member

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    Good points on the radius you two. I had noticed that and had some concern then realized I was probably still feeding 5-10 thou/rev went out and turned the feed down to .0027 /rev. really not much difference. I'll hone in a radius in the 1/4" near the tip. I really don't think the test piece will know it's not full length as I have turned the internet off to the garage ;) and it can't read this!

    I'm really just hoping to bring another tool into the mix. It just seems that this thing should excel at something. I don't cut AL much but I'll give it a try on it and if it does well I'm a happy cow tipper!

    I finished the tool and looked on the bottom and there was no instructions! So I thought I'd ask you guys and see that I wasn't using the wrong end or something silly. I'm thinking I got everything close to right and just need to work on the nuances.

    Steve
     
  29. swatson144

    swatson144 Global Moderator Staff Member Active Member

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    So I went out this morning before meeting up with my breakfast buddy and honed about 1/64" radius down the leading edge for ~1/4".

    withradius.JPG

    Bands from left; tangential with no radius .005/rev, TCMT insert .005"/rev, tangential no radius .0027"/rev, on right tangential with radius .0027"/rev. All at 570rpm. Much smoother and all of them look worse than they are in the pictures. I'll keep playing with it. I doubt it will replace carbide for steel/alloys for me but I think I may have a great tool for aluminum here.

    BTW It's always interesting when your 97yr old friend points across a crowded Ihop and whispers "Is THAT a woman?" In that quiet as an unmuffled lawnmower whisper.

    Steve

    withradius.JPG
     
  30. 8ntsane

    8ntsane Active User Active Member

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    The radius on the tangential cutter?
    Well as mentioned before, I have a version of Niels (FarFar) tangential tool cutter. I have been using since last yr. Also I have mentioned that I do most of my sharpening with a belt sander. The nose radius is somthing I put on my HSS tooling as a habit. Again, this is done on the belt sander.

    I just use a 120 grit , well used belt, and the front nose edge that you would want the radius, just hold the HSS bit in your fingers, and rock the bit while running it on the belt. As usual, keep the cutting end to the trailing end of the belt. This will put a radius on the complete length of the tool bit in like 5-seconds. Your tooling will automaticly have a nose radius, and not a sharp pointy end. this gives a great finish.

    Try it, you might like it.
     

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