New (to me) Logan 200

Discussion in 'SHELDON, LOGAN & ROCKWELL MACHINES' started by TomKro, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. TomKro

    TomKro Active Members Active Member

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    I was trying to avoid another “project”, but I really wanted to find a lathe, this one was close, and the price was right.

    From the serial number, it’s a real oldie – 1943 timeframe. It’s not real pretty, as the previous owner was in the middle of stripping the paint. It has some problems – the motor is poor (has to be kick started), the flat belt is definitely on the way out, the chuck appears worn, there’s a chewed up tumbler gear, and the feed drive gear on the back of the spindle has a chipped tooth. On the plus side, there isn’t a lot of play in the cross or compound slides, the spindle appears to turn smoothly, and all the castings appear fully intact. I hope to find some replacement parts to get everything working as it should.

    Can anyone please advise as to how to break the chuck loose? Should the back of the chuck be soaked in penetrating oil for a while? Are there any sort of locking screws to remove before trying to turn it off? Is it OK to lock the back gears in place and lightly “malletize” the chuck a bit? Are there other ways to stop the spindle from turning?

    Taking the spindle out to get the belt changed has me a bit concerned. This Logan has been running for 50+ years, and I sure don’t want to bust up anything important. Does anyone possibly know of specific instructions for getting the spindle out? From what I can tell, there’s a nut on the back and a cap on the front. Does it just slide out the front? Any advice would really be appreciated.

    I guess it’s time to pick up a gallon of WD-40 and few brass brushes. Plenty of parts to clean up.
    Tom
     

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  2. OrangeAlpine

    OrangeAlpine Active Members Active Member

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    Locking a lathe in the back gears is the time honored method of chuck removal. Proper chuck installation procedure calls for the final quarter turn to be a quick spin, which effectively locks it in place. The "lightly" malletizing (or any other "light") procedure will have no impact. Real effort has to be put into the process. A few jerks on a large adjustable wrench fitted over a chuck jaw usually works well. Unfortunately, the "process" has been know to pop teeth out of the backgears. Knowing where to stop comes from experience. Fortunately, I don't have that experience. At least not yet.

    Unless the lathe is very rusty, which yours isn't, I wouldn't expect penetrating oil to be much help. BTW, WD 40 is not a penetrating oil.

    Bill
     
  3. TomKro

    TomKro Active Members Active Member

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    Bill,
    The possibility of busting up any of the main gears has me a bit concerned. I have to bolt the head back onto the bed to give it a try.
    Good point on the WD40. I was going to use that to clean up the grease and old goop. I have to go get some real penetrating oil.
    Thanks for the guidance.
    Tom


     
  4. OrangeAlpine

    OrangeAlpine Active Members Active Member

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    Tom, I'm totally sympathetic with your situation. Problem is, I don't know how to tell how much force is too much. For all I know, the busted backgears happen when a 6 ft bar is used.

    Bill
     
  5. Pacer

    Pacer Active Members Active Member

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    Fashion wooden wedges that you can feed between the back gears and the spindle gears. As you rotate the chuck for removal let the teeth take up the wedge to absorb the pressure. And some penetrating oil never hurt either...
     
  6. rwwells

    rwwells Active Members Supporter Active Member

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    Hello Tom,

    The flat belt appears to be leather, if you have to replace it just cut it and get a kit cut to length and either glue or metal hinged coupled back together. I don't think it is necessary to remove spindle.

    The belt kits leather or canvas type can be seen on Ebay. Just make sure you get the right length, not the stretched length of the old belt.

    Others here can give better advise and more info with correct terminology.

    RWW
     
  7. stevecmo

    stevecmo Active Members Supporter Active Member

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    Tom,

    If you do a search on this site (or Google) you find lots of info - some good, some not so good. As has been said already, the danger is breaking teeth on the back gear/bull gear. They will usually come off with a little persuasion, just be careful - no harsh whacks, use a deadblow hammer.

    Yes, remove the gear and nut on the left side of the spindle. There is also a set screw (sometimes two back to back) in the cone pulley. The the spindle assembly goes out the right hand side. It will probably be stuck as well. I had to make a puller assembly using heavy all thread rod thru the spindle.

    If you remove the spindle I would recommend replacing the leather belt with an automotive serpentine belt. It will give you much better grip on the pulleys.

    It looks like a nice lathe and in decent shape. Good luck.

    Steve
     
  8. stonehands

    stonehands Active Members Supporter Active Member

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    Looks like you found a good Winter project. Another product that has not been mentioned is Loc-tite brand 'Freeze and Release' my gunsmith and I have been having good luck with it on lower receiver and hand screws on double guns.It freezes the part to minus'something' and puts a very thin lube in the joint.We haven't lost a screw yet.I've even started using it on lathe part teardowns.I have several tumbler assemblies for your Logan and alot of misc. parts from a school system inventory that's 25yrs.old.You need a parts book to identify and give me part #'s. If that gear you mentioned is the spindle gear I have one NOS. Get a list togeather and send me a PM if I can be of Help.--David
     
  9. TomKro

    TomKro Active Members Active Member

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    Just got back the computer – lots of good info here…

    The only progress I made today was picking up some penetrating oil, a can of WD40, some soft metal brushes and a metal wash pan. When at Tractor Supply I saw a large hangar rod connecting nut that looked just small enough for one of my larger sockets. I thought that might work in the jaws of the chuck as a turning point so that I don’t beat up that old chuck any more than it already is. Also, that will limit me to a 2’ breaker bar, so less chance of me doing something too silly. I do appreciate all the advice on chuck removal. The chuck may not actually be stuck; I just have to get things back together to find out. More to follow on that in a few days.

    Steve – As to spindle removal, I believe you mentioned setscrews in the cone pulley. I found one setscrew hole and one oil port in the stepped belt cone. It appears a little odd to me that all the torque from the pulley gets carried thru one screw (?). I’m really not understanding this quite yet.

    Rwwells – I’m warming up to the idea of using a split belt. I’m a real novice, and maybe I’ll try and get some use out of this machine before I bugger up anything important. I guess it comes down to how badly I want to clean all the goo out of the head. I’m still thinking about which way to go. The chip in the tooth on the spindle gear isn’t real bad, so taking the spindle apart isn’t a functional priority yet, unless I do really badly on the chuck removal.

    Stonehands – I’ve never heard of “freeze and release” – sounds real handy. When looking at the rack under the edge of the bed, I was really wishing I could take out the flat head screws to paint things up a little nicer. Those screws look like brass, and I’m concerned about chewing them up. If I get brave, I may give the freeze and release a try.

    It looks like I only have an hour or so before I have to get things ready for work tomorrow. I’ll try to update later in the week.

    Thanks to all for the advice.
    Tom
     
  10. sophijo

    sophijo Active Members Active Member

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    Removing the spindle is not that big a deal and then you can more closely inspect bearings and races. I replaced the leather with a serpentine automotive belt...big improvement.
     
  11. TomKro

    TomKro Active Members Active Member

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    Update:

    The chuck came off without too much trouble. I decided to start with what I thought would be the lowest load on the gears, and work my way up from there, if needed. I used a 1/2 inch wratchet with an impact socket tied to a long hex nut (threaded rod connector) locked in the chuck. Spun the cone by hand then pulled back on the handle. I tried it 2x with no luck, but my weight lifter son had no trouble at all. It was likely more speed and coordination, but he's stronger, faster and more coordinated, so who knows.

    Unfortunately, the nose of the spindle is a real mess. Someone bored into it a few times, and the largest cutout nibbled away a little more than an 1/8 inch off the nose. I was a bit disgusted (Newbie error - never thought to look). It can possibly be repaired, but it won't be easy. It certainly has to come out.

    I started pulling things apart, and that thing is in there tight. I tried some light "persuasion" with a block of soft wood and a rubber mallet, but I believe a puller is going to be needed. Steve/Stevecmo - if you can describe how you braced against the headstock, I would appreciate hearing about any puller setup that worked. I was thinking about some 2x4's along the bed as spacers, a plate with a hole on the end, and a 3/4 threaded rod.
    I can't recall the specific web site, but I do recall reading about having to line up the gear key with a slot in the inner bearing cover. Any other things to watch out for?
    Does it help to apply a little heat to the front bearing area? The paint is gone anyway, but not sure how much I could get away with before causing problems.
    Does anyone know if spindles from other Logan models may also fit the model 200?

    Hopefully, this thing won't have to sit too long.
    TomKro
     
  12. stevecmo

    stevecmo Active Members Supporter Active Member

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    Tom,

    I think you have the idea of how the puller works. I first tried using 2x4's and they didn't cut it. I took a 1/2" x 3" bar and bent it into a "U" so the so of the "U" would fit around the boss on the front of the headstock. Then I used a 1/2" x 3" bar with a hole in it to span the legs of the "U". I used 3/4" all thread thru the hole and I think just heavy flat washers on the left side.

    I used lots of penetrating oil around the front bearing / casting. Then just start cranking slowly. It'll break loose. Pine Sol is the best for cleaning the bearings. Just douche until all the dried grease and gunk comes out. Then wash with hot soapy water then blow dry with compressed air. DO NOT spin the bearing with the compressed air - it will ruin the races. Then just a little oil until you're ready to grease and assemble.

    Steve
     
  13. stonehands

    stonehands Active Members Supporter Active Member

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    Tom, I made a trip to the shop today,and found of all things, a Logan spindle with the front bearing assembly. Perfect spindle threads and what should be a good bearing. These parts came off of school machines in the 70's and never were used in a production shop.Let me know if you want me to ship the 3 gears and the spindle or you want to drive out,I have a show(gun) that I'm working this weekend but if I ship tomorrow AM you might have them this week-end.--David
     
  14. TomKro

    TomKro Active Members Active Member

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    Steve - I really like the idea of the U shaped bar. I don't think I have anything big enough to shape 1/2 x 3, but maybe I can weld up some iron pipe and flat stock to duplicate the general idea. I'm always looking for an excuse to dig out the little Hobart.

    Stonehands - That's very good news on the spindle, I'll PM you shortly.

    Many Thanks,
    TomKro
     
  15. stevecmo

    stevecmo Active Members Supporter Active Member

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    Tom,

    I'm sure the 1/2" bar is way overkill. I would think 1/4" or 3/16" would be plenty stout if that makes it easier.

    Steve
     
  16. TomKro

    TomKro Active Members Active Member

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    Spindle Removal Update: I couldn’t find anything suitable for bending up flat bar to make a U shaped bracket for a puller, so I splurged and mail ordered a short piece of 5 inch schedule 40 aluminum pipe and a short piece of flatstock. See attached pic for the setup.

    Spindle removal was quite the job. It turns out that the bearing fit really wasn’t the major problem. The bull gear was hung up on some deformation from the locking screw. I had to use flat bars between the hub of the bull gear and the inside of the headstock to hold the gear back as the spindle was pulled out (the white wooden stick in the image didn’t hold up very long). I ended up using two layers of 1/8 x 5/8 flatstock on each side of the gear hub to prevent the gear teeth from jamming into the case. I had to work the spindle backand forth about 5x before it came out. The gear was on so tight that the threads on the 5/8 inch threaded rod were starting to give out, and I had to straighten the flat bars a few times along the way.

    Anyway, the spindlefinally made it out. The next problem is getting the capture nut off the spindle. There’s a slot for some sort of spanner wrench (which I don’t have), and so far I can’t break it loose with a pin and a big hammer. It’s presently soaking in penetrating oil.

    Holding the spindleis also a bit of a problem. I held it in a vise with soft jaws, trapping the key in the soft jaws to try to stop the shaft from turning. The grip was some what marginal.

    Any ideas for breaking the capture nut loose? I’m not aware of the name of the wrench used, but I think I need to get one before I do any more damage to the slot in the capture nut.
    Any ideas will be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks in advance, TomKro
     

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  17. mrbreezeet1

    mrbreezeet1 Active Members Active Member

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    Did you ever get the nut off?
    Can you put the spindle in some soft jaws, and bump the nut loose with a punch in a air hammer?
     
  18. TomKro

    TomKro Active Members Active Member

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    mrbreezeet1:

    No luck getting the nut off yet. I now have the proper spanner wrench, and I re-installed the rear gear to grip the assembly in a vise, but still had problems. I had the gear gripped with soft jaws, but my soft jaws are way too soft (almost rubbery), and just can't hold things in place. I made a trip to the local hardware store to look for some copper or lead sheet for the vise, but I haven't found anything yet. I guess I'll just wrap the jaws in a thick layer of aluminum tape and give it another try.

    Hadn't thought of using an air hammer. I'll try again with just the wrench, and maybe just a little heat on the edge of the collar. If that doesn't do the trick, I know I have a worn out air chisel that maybe can be ground a little to fit the slot. Thanks for the idea.

    I used up most of this weekend on lawn work and taxes, but I think I hear Logan calling from the basement...

    Thanks again, TomKro





     
  19. Dave Smith

    Dave Smith Active Members Supporter Active Member

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    Tom---I was reading your post and was wondering if you used the push in slide spindle lock (on front to the left of your id plate) ? that is what I use to lock the spindle to knock the chuck loose. to unlock it you have to push the release spring on bottom of slide up as you pull the handle out. I noticed that no one else mentioned that as a spindle lock is why I'm mentioning it. I use it also to lock the spindle when I spin mount my chuck. Dave I really like my logan 200
     
  20. mrbreezeet1

    mrbreezeet1 Active Members Active Member

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    Are you sure your not talking about engaging the back gear with the bull gear still locked to the cone pulley?
     

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