1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. We want to wish everyone a healthy, happy New Year, full of joy and success. God bless you, and thank you for supporting The Hobby-Machinist.

    Dismiss Notice

[Newbie] Rockwell Horz./vert. Combo Mill - Wiring W/vfd

Discussion in 'ELECTRICAL ISSUES - POWER YOUR MACHINES & SHOP' started by CrimsnTide, Nov 27, 2016.

  1. CrimsnTide

    CrimsnTide United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    City:
    Anaheim
    State:
    California
    I've been reading on here for about as long as I have been looking for a Rockwell 21-122. Well, I finally came across one and I picked it up. Probably paid more than I wanted to, but I'm sure I'll be happy with it once I get set up. With that said, I will start off showing what little I know, so if remarks are to be made, lets get them over with... I'm tough skinned, so you probably won't offend. Being a combo machine, it has TWO motors. The horizontal has a 1 1/2 hp while the vertical head has a 1/2 hp motor. (See Pics) Although the PO had a RPC hooked up in his garage, I think I'm leaning towards a VFD.... My questions are as follows:

    I will be utilizing both the horz/vert options with this mill.
    Can ONE VFD run both motors since both have different parameters (amps)?
    For simplicity, am I looking at two VFD's? Suggestions?
    Preferably, I'd like to have one control box (On/Off/Speed)

    I'm not sure how much of the electrical is original. When switching to a VFD, how much of it gets bypassed?
    Although I'm conceding to hiring someone, it must be the right person. If there are any suggestions, information, links or reads, please let me know. There's a WEALTH of information, I'm just a little overwhelmed with it all.

    My apologies - but I am posting this on another forum - so if it looks familiar...

    RW_1.jpg

    RW_2.jpg

    RW_3.jpg


    Motor_Horz.jpg

    Motor_Vert.jpg

    RW_Elec.jpg

    RW_Elec_1.jpg

    RW_Elec_2.jpg
     
    Ulma Doctor likes this.
  2. omni_dilletante

    omni_dilletante somewhat active H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    362
    Trophy Points:
    63
    City:
    Portland
    State:
    Oregon
    I have a similar setup with a Hardinge UM and have both motors wired to a single VFD.

    Most important rule:

    Do not put a switch between the VFD and the motor. Shutting off the motor when running with a VFD will damage the VFD. Always use the VFD as the switch.


    I am pretty sure it is a bad idea run both motors at the same time, but I don't think that is something you will want to do.

    I wired a box with two three phase outlets and plugged the motors into it. I then wired a switch to switch the VFD between outlets. I do not switch between motors when they are running.

    The VFD has several programmable terminals so you can wire remote on/off or emergency off switches. You can then wire in a potentiometer to control speed, or use a switch to change between preset speeds.
     
  3. CluelessNewB

    CluelessNewB Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    266
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    United States Southern Maine
    City:
    Gorham
    State:
    Maine
    If I'm reading those motor tags correctly one is a 1/2 hp (2.2 amps @220V) and the other 1 1/2 hp (4.8 amps @230V). One of the nice things about VFD's is the provide overload protection. To properly use the same VFD for both motors you will need to reprogram the current differently for each motor. That's a bit of a pain to do each time you switch from one to the other. Personally if it were me I would be looking at 2 VFD's. You can probably use the two existing forward/reverse drum switches but they will be wired to the low voltage control inputs of the VFD rather than to the motors as they are now. . Most of the other electrical stuff will no longer be needed.
     
  4. CrimsnTide

    CrimsnTide United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    City:
    Anaheim
    State:
    California
    Just being the hobbyist, I can't imagine having to use both horz./vert. at the sametime, for the same set-up. With the motors being different I was thinking the same - that for both motors to utilize the same VFD, it would have to be "re-programmed" every time the other motor is used. To me, that's a PITA. Now to set-up TWO VFD's, I think I'm getting into the price range of a Rotary Phase Converter (RPC). But to be honest, what attracts me most to the VFD, is not having to change pulley's for RPM adjustment. Not a big deal, but something I would definitely consider. However, like I mentioned above, if I chose to have two VFD's, is there a way to hook up only one "control switch" (On/Off/RPM)
     
  5. omni_dilletante

    omni_dilletante somewhat active H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    362
    Trophy Points:
    63
    City:
    Portland
    State:
    Oregon
    I think the only reprogramming you would need to do is for the overload protection.

    If you plug the motor into the rotary phase converter, or the wall, you do not have overload protection.

    If you are willing to go without overload protection, then I believe you could set up the VFD to run both motors without reprogramming.
     
  6. CluelessNewB

    CluelessNewB Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    266
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    United States Southern Maine
    City:
    Gorham
    State:
    Maine
    Yes but it would require either some multiple pin connector that you switch from one to the other or maybe relays and a switch that selects one or the other. In either case it might actually end up costing more than separate controls. I can also see a safety concern with the possibility of forgetting to switch over and turning on the wrong motor.
     
  7. CrimsnTide

    CrimsnTide United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    City:
    Anaheim
    State:
    California
    Well, with a fair amount of reading, here's what I wound up doing. I purchased a SECOND VFD to control my Vertical 1/2hp motor. I will mount them both in a large junction box and wire the motors separately. With that being ordered, I do have some questions. I have searched quite a bit and found there are some many DIFFERENT ways to go about this. My ULTIMATE goal is to have one, external control box that would control the VFD that I'm using. I think I'm going to wire each FM50 to have it's own connector - and just plug my external control into whichever axis I'm using.

    So here are my questions:
    1. Can I (or SHOULD I) shut down the power to the VFD I'm NOT using. In fact, I can see where there will be times I'm not using the mill for months on end. I talked to the "Tech Support" at FactoryMation where I purchased the Teco FM50's. It was SUGGESTED that I could just do a simple switch shutting down the 230v single phase power going to the VFD. Does this sound right???
    1a. Does ANYONE think that by shutting down the power, I'm going to lose my settings? I know when it's not running (converting) it won't be using much power. Also, if this is best, I can see wiring up individual

    2. I've read where some have wired in a EStop or emergency stop. Is this something I could utilize? Does this shut down the power? Just thinking that I could wire one on the Junction box where both VFD's are housed.

    3. My first though was to wire s single twist lock plug coming from the safety switch. From there, I would have two socket/outlets wired in the junction box - one for each VFD. I then would plug into which ever one I need to run. Two things I'm unsure of. Are these able to be "hot-plugged". and also, like 1a above, will the VFD retain their settings when unplugged.

    4. I have also thought in not having two connectors - one for each VFD external controls. If I were able to "turn off" the unused VFD, is there a problem if BOTH VFD's were wired in a series? (One wire going from external control to VFD and from there to the same position on the other VFD which is not powered).

    I am ELECTRONICALLY inept. I am mentally deficient for the most part when I start reading about contactors, thermal switch, relay 24v. etc etc. etc. I'm feeling pretty good and I'm excited about using the VFD's. I just need what would be the simplist, safest way for me to do this. I don't need an elaborate setup. I'm juts looking for a external control box.

    Any help/suggestions or diagrams would be GREATLY appreciated....
     
  8. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    1,986
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Ethereal Plane
    City:
    Tracy
    State:
    California
    Congrats on the fine looking milling machine!:drool:
    if your are electrically deficient minded, a RPC may be your most easily attained operation of the milling machines functions
    that being said, surplus 3 phase vfd's could then be added later on to control the motors, when you feel that you have grasped the electrical concepts better.
     
  9. CrimsnTide

    CrimsnTide United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    City:
    Anaheim
    State:
    California
    Doc - I did contemplate HEAVILY on the RPC and when I was thinking of going that route, it really made the most sense. And believe me, if I could have "assembled" one on my own, I probably would have. I watched your tube videos for quite sometime and it did make sense to me. I guess it came down to a time vs. cash issue. I FEEL I can get my mill up and running faster and cheaper with the VFD's. For both Teco's I'm out about $240. I have everything else, J-Box, safety switch, wire, conduit etc. I found a "couple" RPC's on Craigslist, but not knowing anything, the VFD's just made me feel more comfortable in getting this up and running. I'm more broke than anxious, but again, going this route BARELY edged out the RPC.... Thanks for the reply...
     
  10. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    1,986
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Ethereal Plane
    City:
    Tracy
    State:
    California
    you are very welcome.
    if i can be of any assistance to get your milling machine operational, please don't hesitate to ask.
     
  11. CluelessNewB

    CluelessNewB Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    266
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    United States Southern Maine
    City:
    Gorham
    State:
    Maine
    My answers are interleaved between questions in below quote:

     
  12. CrimsnTide

    CrimsnTide United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    City:
    Anaheim
    State:
    California
    Rich,

    Thank you for taking the time to respond. I think you have confirmed what is turning out to be a basic setup. I have "acquired" two 3 Pole - Flush Mount - Non-Fused Switch Disconnect's made by Eaton. Much bigger than needed but it was a price I couldn't turn down. They're used, but should work perfectly. I'll be shutting down one or BOTH VFD's when not in use. I plan on running a connector from each VFD and installing into the side of the J-Box. When the time comes, I can just plug in my connector that is hardwired to the external control box. Should not be an issue. Again, thanks for taking the time to respond. I just need a little re-assurance...
     
  13. CrimsnTide

    CrimsnTide United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    City:
    Anaheim
    State:
    California
    O.K., a little more help, PLEASE. Is there way to power an external fan with the VFD??? I have a few enclosure fans.
    If so, what would be the ticket - 24v? 12v? I think most all of them draw less than a 1/2 amp?

    Thanks again!
     
  14. CluelessNewB

    CluelessNewB Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    266
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    United States Southern Maine
    City:
    Gorham
    State:
    Maine
    The FM50 +10 and +12 outputs are very low current and are only designed for use with the analog and digital inputs of the VFD itself. There is one set of contacts "Multi-Function Output" pins 1 & 2 that appear to be rated at 1 amp that could be used to control an external fan so it comes on when the VFD is running but you would still need to supply power for the fan itself.
     

Share This Page