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Vfd For A Bridgeport

Discussion in 'ELECTRICAL ISSUES - POWER YOUR MACHINES & SHOP' started by MBuechle, Sep 25, 2016.

  1. MBuechle

    MBuechle United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Will be picking up a new top me J head Bridgeport next week. It has a 3PH motor and I have single PH power. Seems like a VFD is the best way to do this. Is this a solid unit? https://www.driveswarehouse.com/nes1-007sb-2686


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  2. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Hitachi makes good drives. The one you linked to is a 1 HP rated drive. I would assume your BP mill has a 1-1/2 to 3 HP motor, so that unit would not be adequate. It is a general good practice when converting single phase to three phase to go to an overrated VFD, like perhaps a 2 HP rated drive or higher to run a 1-1/2 HP motor. At least that is my understanding, others here know lots more than I do about VFD's.
     
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  3. JimDawson

    JimDawson Global Moderator Staff Member Director

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    I have one of those sitting out in my shop that went up in smoke after about a year. But I suspect that is not normal. Most VFDs are pretty bullet proof.

    As Bob says, over rating VFDs for the motor when operating on single phase is not a bad thing. I use Automation Direct VFDs and have had good luck with them, and use one's rated at the motor HP.
     
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  4. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    As Bob mentioned, I would size the VFD to the machine motor Hp/ratings. Not really any need to go up a size in the VFD, unless you are planning to put in a bigger motor at some later time. Most VFDs are rated to deliver 130-150% of the motor rated current for short periods. The Hitachi NES1 would work fine for a mill application (would not use this for a lathe), it is more of a bare bones VFD and is lacking a few features like it does not have provisions for an external braking resistor and it will not run sensorless vector. The latter which is lacking in most lower cost VFDs, it gives better motor control at lower speeds (below 30Hz). Hitachi seems to make solid reliable drives at reasonable cost, other then Jim's experience I have not seen/heard one fail in the field. Teco also has a new low cost line of of VFDs, but a few people have had some issues with them. The Automation Direct GS2 and GS3 are also decent. I would buy from a mainstream US supplier, so if there are any problems or need technical help there is a resource.

    One thing about the Hitachi and a few other drives, is that you need to unlock the unit in able to do any programing changes, so on the Hitachi VFDs you must do the following first:
    1. Change B037 to "00" for full display of all functions. You must press both the up and down arrows to access single-digit edit mode since this feature is not accessible in the default basic display. You must change B037 before you can change B031.

    AND THEN
    2. Change B031 to "10". This unlocks all the high level program functions for editing. Then make the following program changes that are highlighted.
     
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  5. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    It is also often pretty cheap to go to a larger capacity VFD at the lower power ratings. The 3 hp rated VFD I just bought was $4.00 more expensive than a 2 hp rated drive from the same supplier. The larger one will only consume slightly more power at lower outputs than a barely adequate one will, will be usable on larger machines down the road, and will be easier to sell, and for more money, later on. When you get into bigger VFDs, like 5 hp and larger, they get more expensive very quickly as the power rating increases.
     
  6. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    In general I agree that go one size bigger on the VFD, if the price difference is not significant. Given that the NES1 is a budget VFD, I assume price was an issue. I often see a significant price jump from 1 to 2 Hp units, in this case it is another $40+ to size up. On the other hand I did a 3Hp motor with 3 phase power installation with a WJ200 and opted for the 5Hp VFD because the price difference was nominal. I also considered that the machine might be replaced with a larger 5Hp unit at a later time. You will not get any performance difference between the two, and it is unlikely to see any difference in parts longevity, as the VFD will be obsolete by the time it fails. If I where in a very hot environment, continuous duty at close to full load, then I think one could make an argument to size up based on the VFD components not being stressed to their maximum ratings, and the capacitors in theory should last longer. That being said, on my new 3Hp (Acra/Sharp) mill, the manufacturer undersized the VFD. The manufacture says they have no issues, Yaskawa tech said it is not rated for a full 3Hp in the wired configuration. Given that the load is usually way under the full potential of the Hp, and it is not being run at full Hp continuously, I guess they can get buy with a smaller VFD.

    I usually do VFD builds where the VFD is integral with the machine control system, so unlikely to be re-purposed at a future point. They are not very expensive in the 5Hp and under size, and the technology is evolving, so kind of a moving target on whether to reuse an older VFD or just buy a new one. Also, per the manufacturer's guidance, if you up-size the VFD, the input wiring, fusing, switch gear must be rated for the VFD rating and not the motor rating.
     
  7. MBuechle

    MBuechle United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I appreciate the responses. Not sure on the HP of the motor but will know tomorrow when I pick it up. I'm willing to spend the extra money for external braking resistor and sensor-less vector capability. Also want external switch for start/stop & direction. I don't see up sizing the motor as I doubt I'll push this mill very hard. It's strictly for hobby use and some personal gun work. The first projects are fixtures and mods for my Atlas lathe. Once again, thanks for the input and I'll be checking these other suggestions out.
     
  8. AxeMaker

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    mikey likes this.
  9. JimDawson

    JimDawson Global Moderator Staff Member Director

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    Lenze is a well regarded German manufacturer, AC Tech has been building drives in the U.S.A for a long time also. I'm guessing that Lenze bought AC Tech. That looks like it will do a fine job.
     
  10. MBuechle

    MBuechle United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I think Lenze is what we have on the hangar door drives at work, seem like real nice units. Got my mill home today, motor is 1 HP pancake type. Seller said he had it rewound when he got it, the Glyptal on the stator still looks new. I don't see putting anything larger on. The pricing on the Lenze is not objectionable, and I like German quality. Probably go with one of these. Once again thanks for all of the helpful input.


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  11. tq60

    tq60 United States Active Member Active Member

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    Always check the factory manuals for compatability.

    Our Allen bradley manual has a table with motor size, single pase and 3 phase power ratings and the vfd required for each.

    Many vfd can operate from single phase with derating as the input side is on one set while others simply should not be used.

    Our BP has 1 hp motor and po had 3 phase and used 1 hp unit and we have issues when we push it.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
     
  12. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I would also suggest going with a 2Hp VFD, evidently the BP pancake motors can be a bit difficult to drive from my readings. Also, some of the mill motors I have seen are 2 speed 4P/8P constant Hp, on the 8P setting they use twice the current so one would need to up size the VFD if it was run on 8P winding. You also may try the VFD without an external braking resistor, there is a built in internal braking resistor and it should be good for stopping the mill in 2-3 seconds.
     
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  13. MBuechle

    MBuechle United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    OK, good to know. My motor is definitely single speed, 240/480 star wound. Was considering going 1.5 HP on the VFD.
     
  14. MBuechle

    MBuechle United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Update.
    I went with the Lenze 1.5 Hp VFD. My motor is rated @ 4.2 amp with a 1.25 duty cycle, the 1.5 Hp VFD is good for 6 amps so I've got some headroom. Just finished installing and programing. This thing is flat out cool! I used the existing drum switch for control inputs and added a speed pot. The third step down on the pullys is unity between motor & spindle and with frequencies set from 20 to 95 hz I can get full range of spindle speeds without moving the belt. The other nice thing is that you can set the VFD to display RPM directly. I think my lathe needs one of these!
     
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  15. AxeMaker

    AxeMaker United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Oh cool ! Can you give me the parameters you used to compare? I am feeling a bit overwhelmed read this stuff because of all of the settings available.
     
  16. MBuechle

    MBuechle United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I can, it'll be a little later tonight.
     
  17. MBuechle

    MBuechle United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    OK, here we go:
    P100 -1 enables external controls
    P102 -20 Min hertz, With belt on second from bottom pully this will give you data plate min. spindle speed.
    P103 -95 Max hertz, this will give you max data plate spindle speed.
    P104 -3 Acceleration, seconds to 60hz speed.
    P105 -5 Deceleration, probably will change this to 7 or 8 as I get a High volt fault when decelerating in back gear.
    P108 -70
    P111 -1
    P112 -1
    P121 -10 Enable reverse on terminal 13a
    P178 - 29.17 makes display show motor RPM which with belt on step 3 is spindle RPM, cool!!!
    P300 -4 enable vector mode
    P302 -220 From motor name plate.
    P303 -4.2 "
    P399 -1 To run SV calibration.

    I have the pancake motor circa 1957 and am using the origional drum switch for VFD signaling and a 10K ohm pot for speed. If you are using push buttons the P121 settings are a little different. The manual shows this.
    Hope this helps.

    Mark
     
  18. MBuechle

    MBuechle United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Here is a pretty good video of connection and programing.
    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
  19. AxeMaker

    AxeMaker United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Wow thank you! This will help me tremendously because I have no idea what or what not to select and program.
    I actually have that video up on another browser tab. It got me to the point the VFD was running, but its for an older model etc...

    What are these for ?

    P300 -4 enable vector mode
    P302 -220 From motor name plate.
    P303 -4.2 "
    P399 -1 To run SV calibration.
     
  20. MBuechle

    MBuechle United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    -The P30x parameters are for senserless vector mode. P300 -4 enables the mode we want for our machine tools. P302 thru P306 require motor parameters to be entered for this mode to work, you get these from the motor data plate. I see that your's is a 2Hp so the numbers will be different than mine. P306 is the only one I could not get data for so I left it at default and that seams to work. Perhaps one of the motor gurus here can help with that. You don't need to do this to use the drive as it defaults to voltage/hz mode. However, I spent the extra money to get sensorless vector capability and want to use it. It will run the motor a full torque at reduced speed. Say you are running at 20hz to get a 580 RPM spindle speed because your using a big honking 4 cutter face mill, your going to want full torque like you'd get running the motor at rated speed on pulley step one. 'Course, if you do this a lot, you'll need to add a cooling fan to the motor because at 580 RPM it's built in fan won't move enough air. I saw your other post on this and if the motor runs backwards, and mine did, just swap any two line connections at the motor, same as any 3 phase motor.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
  21. AxeMaker

    AxeMaker United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    What did you add to you VFD to get the sensorless vector ? I thought mine came with it already ...

    I already planned for the cooling issue and bought a 80mm AC powered fan to mount on top of the motor cover. Depending on how that works I may need to get a larger/more CFM fan.
    Thank you for explaining those settings, this will help me tremendously.

    This is the model I have;

    upload_2016-11-4_5-1-52.png
     
  22. MBuechle

    MBuechle United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    It does, I just meant that I paid a premium for a Lentze vs. a China VFD because the Lenze has sensor less Vector. I have the same unit as you, just lower HP size.
     
  23. AxeMaker

    AxeMaker United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Ah okay ! I went with this one because it's made in the US, and the reviews etc...
     
  24. AxeMaker

    AxeMaker United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    MBuechle,

    Did you ever find a cooling fan etc ?

    If not, here is what I came up with. From reading the manual I should be able to use #16 & #17 to trigger the relay when the motor starts and turn off when the motor stops.

    uxcell SSR-25 DA 25A 3-32V DC / 24-380V AC Solid State Relay + Heat Sink
    51At56un9%2BL._SY90_.jpg



    AC Infinity HS1238A, 115V AC Cooling Fan, 120mm x 38mm High Speed
    51uuZJzKt0L._SY90_.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  25. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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  26. AxeMaker

    AxeMaker United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I thought about using a thermostat but then I thought that if the mill was running why not just run the fan. Most of the cutting will be done at slower speeds and that is when the fan is needed.

    With the Lenze VFD it is so easy to use a relay to trigger the 110v fan by using control pins 16 & 17.

    Here is the thermostat I was thinking of using;

    AC 110V Fahrenheit Digital Temperature Controller 10A 1 Relay with Sensor $15.90 on Amazon (free shipping for Prime members)
     
  27. MBuechle

    MBuechle United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I haven't done anything for a fan yet. The mill is in my hangar which is yet unheated, so temp has not been a problem here in Michigan. Have done some fly cutting of steel at 20hz and haven't noticed any significant heating of the motor, but again, it's been <50 degrees in the hangar. It does sound like an excellent idea to use the VFD output to control the fan though, think I'll do that too if or when I have the need.
     

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