1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. PLEASE: Read the FORUM RULES BEFORE registering!

    Dismiss Notice

Whole Shop And Machine-specific Help For Dunce

Discussion in 'ELECTRICAL ISSUES - POWER YOUR MACHINES & SHOP' started by markamerica, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. markamerica

    markamerica United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    City:
    Heidenheimer
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    Hi everybody! Here's the link to my thread in the beginner's section in which I purchased a lathe. This should provide some reference as to what's gone on to date. To start, I guess I should state what my shop's electrical status is. Years ago, when we moved to our property, there was nothing more than a water meter out at the edge of the right-of-way. Everything we needed, we would have to build/buy. We threw a no frills double-wide on the property, and to hook it up to electric, it was going to require Oncor to install three poles across my pasture. That was going to cost, but one pole was "free" because they had to hop the highway, so that was covered, and then the second one was covered by the new service account(they were willing to add one "free" with a new account.) Since that would mean I'd have to buy a pole, and since we were leveraged to the hilt at the time, (still owning our old home, which we shortly thereafter sold,) and since we had poured so much into building fences, putting in thousands of feet of water line, to service the house and the horse pastures, I had to come up with an idea. The thing was, I said: "We want two service accounts. One for the house, and one for the barn we're going to build." That got us the "entitlement" in their system to get that third pole "free." For a long while, it powered a yard security light. Then, sick of paying the service fee for the second account, my wife discontinued service. When we built the barn, we got to that point where we were out of money to go further, which included things like enclosing my workshop, and a storage area. I had installed a load center, wired it up to the little service pole in the barnyard with a safety disconnect and a meter base. Unfortunately, the limitations will always be single phase. I can't get 3 phase, any flavor, so this has created a problem.

    I'm going to need to buy a phase converter. I've read all sorts of opinions on the issue, and I have at least a grasp of the issues involved. Here's the deal: The lathe I just purchased has a 15HP motor. Whether the motor turns out to be bad and a replacement is necessitated, I'd just as soon anticipate the 15HP-class electrical load. Eventually, I expect there will be a 3 phase air compressor, and a 3 phase milling machine, in addition to this. I can't think of anything else (at least for the moment) for which I'll need 3 phase. Maybe someday, a surface grinder???

    I have another problem, which is back when I installed the load center, and etc, I basically went with the cheapest thing I could get away with. 100amp meter base, 100amp safety switch, and 100amp load center.

    That was a mistake. I should have just spent the extra dough at the time and bought 200amp equipment. Since I knew I wouldn't be wiring anything up immediately anyway, I went with the cheapest I could to get what I needed.

    Enter the 3 phase discussion. I've been looking at Rotary Phase Converters. Based on what I have to spend, and what I have to power, I'm thinking this is my best bet. For the class I'm looking at, a 60 amp single phase requirement is needed. So you see my dilemma: That will already suck up 60% of the capacity of my load center, etc. So what I'm thinking about is changing out to 200amp gear, now, before it gets harder to do...

    Thoughts?

    Thanks!
     
  2. markamerica

    markamerica United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    City:
    Heidenheimer
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    The other issue in this thread revolves around the lathe I've purchased. It's a 1979 Martin DLZ, and its electrical is either absent or shot. Basically, I'm going to need a new enclosure, a new motor, new switches, new wiring, and new everything... So where to start... Let's assume that I will need a new motor. Looks like a 254t frame 15hp motor should do the job. (As near as I can tell, this is what the existing, probably bad, motor is...) The single difference is that the existing motor, the end of the shaft is threaded for a screw of 5/8" diameter. I haven't pulled the belts and all just yet, but I'm wondering: If that's the mechanism for holding the pulley on, I don't find motors with threaded shafts. They all just seem to have a center... No threads. Ideas about this? Can I get a different pulley and secure it by other means? Thoughts?

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
  3. JimDawson

    JimDawson Global Moderator Staff Member Director

    Likes Received:
    3,785
    Trophy Points:
    113
    City:
    Sandy
    State:
    Oregon

    -Return to Top-

    Consider that the RPC will only draw a fraction of its motor's rated current when running. The starting load is pretty high but in some cases the power factor correction may actually cause your electric meter to run backwards when it's idling. Also concider that the lathe will be pretty much idling most of the time also, it rarely will be anywhere close to running full load.

    The first thing I would do is run the lathe motor over to your local motor shop and get it checked out.

    As far as pulleys go, I like the various taper lock types. Available from many vendors
    taper-lock-pulley-1418156.jpg

    The threaded shaft is somewhat common on European motors, I have seen it before. You will just have to take a good look to see how the pulley is attached.
     
    markamerica likes this.
  4. TakeDeadAim

    TakeDeadAim H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    117
    Trophy Points:
    43
    City:
    Hartford
    State:
    Wisconsin

    -Return to Top-

    Well a couple things, I agree with Jim in that most of those large frame motors can be re-furbished for much less than replacement. We used to re-furbish most if not all the motors rather than replace them and these were on macines wore out to the point of needing ways re-surfaced, lead screws re-cut or nuts made to fit. so before I gave up on what you have I would have it looked at. As far as phase converters I would contact the people at American Rotary, they are near me and I know several people who use their product with good results and they offer free tech support to help you figure out what you need. Once you determine how much power you need for your converter, its then determining how many large draw machines will run at one time and then adding your load for wall sockets and lighting to determine your total need. I am not an electrician but that is exactly what a friend, who is one, did for me to determine what I needed to put in my shop. Remember a big panel can always have more power run to it, changing out the panels is a project that takes time which =$ if your paying someone.

    https://www.americanrotary.com/
     
    FOMOGO and markamerica like this.
  5. markamerica

    markamerica United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    City:
    Heidenheimer
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    Jim,

    Yes, I was looking at pulleys like that last night on ebay. By the way, people will notice I mention ebay a lot. The reason is because sometimes, I'm in an area a bit over my head, and ebay helps educate me. They have almost "one of everything" in the broadest sense, meaning when I'm trying to figure out the proper name for a thing, or the proper thing in any respect, as a searchable database for all sorts of things, it's actually a good way to figure out what I need.

    As for the RPC, you're quite right, based on my reading. I find that if I get an RPC of the right size, so long as I'm not starting multiple pieces of equipment simultaneously, but merely running them simultaneously, the RPC I need is a good deal more economical. I'm looking at a 20hp unit that will start up to a single 20hp device, but in the aggregate, can run up to 60hp of equipment. It's PROBABLY more than I'll ever need, but you already know my thinking on that. I know I'm going into this with a 15hp motor, so I'm giving myself a smidge of excess capacity.

    TakeDeadAim, Thanks! American Rotary is one of the brands I've been looking at. Back when we built the barn, I was going to be happy to have basic power to it. Over time, it became clear that I'd need to rethink some of this before putting another $1 into it, precisely because it's a lot harder to add capacity later. So that's why I'm looking at it, and doing a real budget on what maximal loading I'm apt to ever want. When I start adding things up, light, etc, standard 20 amp wall outlets, yada yada, it adds up fast. Good news is that there's only so many things I can do/run at once. That's the natural limiter for me.

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
  6. John Hasler

    John Hasler United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    764
    Trophy Points:
    113
    City:
    Elmwood
    State:
    Wisconsin

    -Return to Top-

    Do you mean that the end of the shaft is drilled and tapped for a 5/8" screw or that the shaft itself is threaded?
     
    markamerica likes this.
  7. JimDawson

    JimDawson Global Moderator Staff Member Director

    Likes Received:
    3,785
    Trophy Points:
    113
    City:
    Sandy
    State:
    Oregon

    -Return to Top-

    My shop is supplied by a 50 Amp breaker to the sub panel. It has 14 20 Amp quad outlets, my router system (4.8KW), 5HP air compressor, mill (3 HP), lathe (3HP), 300 amp welder, and all the other stuff. Obviously if I fired everything off at the same time the main breaker would trip. But there is only one of me and I can only run one machine at a time, or sometime two. The base load in the shop is about 3 amps, from the battery chargers, idling VFDs, small refrigerator, and other small stuff. All of the lighting combined is about 10 amps, but I normally only turn lights on in the area that I'm working.

    What I'm saying here is you don't have to supply power the the shop with the idea of loading up everything to the max. With a 100 amp service you should get along fine unless you are planning on running a full production shop.
     
  8. markamerica

    markamerica United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    City:
    Heidenheimer
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    J
    Sorry, more clarity on my part. Of just a quickie measurement, the shaft seems to be 1-5/8 OD, or something very close to that. It is threaded, for what appears to be a 5/8 threaded screw.

    Thanks John!
     
  9. markamerica

    markamerica United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    City:
    Heidenheimer
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    Jim, I agree with your general notion. In general, I can only be in one place doing one thing at a time. I tend to think of the other things, more passive, like the fridge, the dehumidifier in the feed and store room, the a/c in my workshop, the computer that will be there(so I can watch all those nifty how-to videos as I try new things) the air compressor kicking on, the barnyard security light at dusk and beyond, horse stall lights, that may be on as we observe a sick horse or an overdue mare, and all the other things that will go on in the barn over which I'll have less than perfect control as to the timing. I guess if you want to think about me and just a small workshop, you're bang-on correct. Problem is that while my workshop will probably represent 80% or more of the average power consumption in the whole structure, there will inevitably be times when that proportion will shift markedly. One of the hindsight shortfalls of this rinky-dinky shack, aka double wide, we purchased when we bought the land etc, is that it is grossly under-provisioned in the electrical department.

    Found that out when I started setting up my old school stereo equipment in the living room: Too few circuits shared across too many outlets and found that my stereo, combined with the oven, the drier, and the a/c along with a few lights and other odds and ends could really put us in a hurt. Anyway, that convinced me that excess capacity is good, and lacking any headroom can be quite the bother.

    Now in truth, I expect it might cause me a few headaches from time to time if I stick with the 100 amp setup, but most of the time, probably 99%, it wouldn't be a problem. It's just that the 1% always seems to occur at the most unopportune times. Story of my life.

    But you're probably right.

    Thanks!
    Mark
     
  10. Tony Wells

    Tony Wells United States Vice President Staff Member Administrator

    Likes Received:
    19,355
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Tyler, Texas
    City:
    Tyler
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    Did they hang a pig on the barn pole just for it? If so they may need to resize it for heavier service. I think I would simply get a 200 amp meter socket/base, a fused disconnect (outdoor, the fire dept will thank you for that, seriously), and a load center capable of handling whatever heavy single phase circuits you want to add new, including the entire 3 phase panel. You can then dedicate a larger breaker to the single phase sub panel that is already there and presumably wired into some circuits in the barn. That way not much of the old work will need to be disturbed.

    When you run the single phase power to the rotary converter, you then can build a dedicated 3 phase load center that handles only the machinery that runs on 3 phase. Start the converter, and all your machines will be ready to go. And don't ever figure on all of then either starting or running at the same time. Unless you hire a crew and crack a whip. If it's just you and your personal shop, the dollar math can't justify the cost to figure 100% current draw. No one does that even in the commercial world that I know of.

    I'm sure some of our resident real electricians will find an error in my methods, and that's fine. That's why we are crowdsourcing this information. It won't hurt my feelings any. I know electric work enough to do it, I feel safely, but perhaps not in total compliance with code in every instance. I don't make nor have I every made my living doing it. Just been around it, and done it quite a bit.
     
    brino and markamerica like this.
  11. John Hasler

    John Hasler United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    764
    Trophy Points:
    113
    City:
    Elmwood
    State:
    Wisconsin

    -Return to Top-

    I have a farm much like yours. I run the whole place (including an indoor arena) through a 100A main breaker with no problems. 100A equipment will handle the starting transients of your motors without difficulty.
     
    markamerica likes this.
  12. John Hasler

    John Hasler United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    764
    Trophy Points:
    113
    City:
    Elmwood
    State:
    Wisconsin

    -Return to Top-

    Most utilites no longer install anything less than a 200A service. The firemen often just pull the meter even when there is a switch right next to it (it should be there anyway, though).
     
    markamerica likes this.
  13. markamerica

    markamerica United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    City:
    Heidenheimer
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    Tony, I always install a disconnect at the pole. There's one now, but it's 100amp.

    As far as a 3-phase sub panel, that was my thinking. I'd like to distribute 3-phase to 5 locations, maybe 6. Lathe, milling machine, air compressor, two others inside the workshop, and one in the central aisle way outside the workshop.

    As far as planning for 100%, I agree with both you and Jim that would be silly. Would be a lot of waste in that.

    As for being an electrician, I'm not one obviously, but over the years, I've managed with some instruction and research, to get done 99.9% of what we've needed done.

    I confess that part of my worries that drive me towards thinking about max loads is born of the paranoia my paying job foments in my thinking. When I began work there a decade ago, they'd put in electrical capacity that was insufficient. With the growth of reliance on technology, they had a real problem already. They were running into capacity-related problems when I started there. I issued warnings to the uppers until one day, in a bad situation, we tripped one of the panels and about a dozen workstations, a couple dozen servers, and various other equipment suddenly went dead. There was some data loss. It was a mess. THEN and only then did they listen. Since then, they've listened more. So we've had a couple of upgrades since. Point is, I admit that the situation I encountered there biases my thinking quite a bit.

    So you and Jim are absolutely right. Still, there's always that little voice hollering at me: "Hey, remember when..." While what we do at work is infinitely more important than what will ever go on in my barn's workshop, the place tends to make a 24x7 worry-wart out of me, and it bleeds over to personal endeavors some. That's all.

    Everything you and Jim have said on the matter is perfectly reasonable.

    Now, back to something you said, any suggestions on a reasonably priced 3-phase sub panel, for distributing the output of the phase converter? Whatever else I do, that seems the smart way to go.

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
  14. markamerica

    markamerica United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    City:
    Heidenheimer
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    Yep, I know this to be the case.
     
  15. markamerica

    markamerica United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    City:
    Heidenheimer
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    John, I'm sure that you and Tony and Jim are right. Like I explained to Tony, above, a lot of this is born of being a professional paranoid who is tasked with worst-case scenario planning. It's a little hard to shut off sometimes.

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
    4gsr and JimDawson like this.
  16. markamerica

    markamerica United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    City:
    Heidenheimer
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    So a little update is in order. After looking at things, and thinking about the size of my shop, and so on, we've decided to expand the footprint of my shop. Part of that is the recent acquisition of the Martin DLZ lathe. Part of it is that it was always going to be a little "tight" with all my stuff. The addition of the DLZ will turn "tight" into "squeaky." After talking it over with my missus, we've agreed that I'll need more floor space. Our barn is 81" x 44.5". The idea was, originally, to have a 12' center aisle, end-to-end, so that I could haul straight through with trailers etc when putting up hay and so on, or whatever. The barn was built in such a way that you could think of it as 10 16'x16' stalls, five on either side of the center aisle, and we put concrete down on the far east end, under the two end stalls and the portion of the aisle between them. The idea was that I would enclose those two stalls, one as storage, and one as my workshop. What we've decided to do, with respect to my workshop, is to expand into the adjacent stall space. So now it will be 16x32. All I have to do is pour the additional slab. So my project took a slight turn here.

    Now while I work on all of that, I want to start work on the lathe electrics. Basically, at present, I've got very little electrical left remaining on the lathe. I've got a motor of unknown serviceability, and I've got some start/stop buttons on the front panel, and darned little else. I'm going to pull the motor and take it to a shop to have them check it out. If it's toast, I'll ask them how much to repair it. If not, I'll buy a new one. In the mean time, I guess I need to figure out what other components I'm going to need. Not being familiar with 3 phase motor operation, but wanting very much to learn, I want to start gathering the bits and pieces I'll need. Assume for the moment that one way or the other, I will have a 3 phase 15 hp motor, old, repaired, or new. It will be around 1750-1800rpm. I will have to provide circuits for starting, stopping, and also an accessory lamp socket, and an accessory coolant pump socket. There is also the matter of the e-stop. I've been told that this lathe was originally equipped with an electromagnetic brake. Not sure if/how that works, will need to investigate. What are the basic components I'll need to start and stop, and provide 110/120 accessory sockets? What components to make the motor run? I'm going to need to buy an enclosure, and I'll probably need some sort of fusible disconnect at the machine.

    Also, speaking of all of this, I had a question about sockets for 3-phase. I'm going to wind up buying a Rotary Phase Converter to provide 3 phase 220v power to at least 4 locations in the shop. (Perhaps 5). What I need to know about doing this, apart from a couple of questions about enclosures, is are there good, reliable, perhaps not "waterproof" but some sort of socket and plug combination I can use for this without breaking the bank? I'd like to mount some kind of socket at the 4-5 locations that has a safety cover for when nothing is plugged in, and a socket type that would be somewhat protected from a splash or similar (not immersion) when something IS plugged into the socket. Now in one case, the compressor location, I'll probably just wire that in and put a disconnect there. With other locations though, I'd like to be able to plug a machine in, and unplug it and move it if needed. I just want some sort of safer socket. Ideas?

    For that matter, I'd like to find something similar for my single-phase 220 equipment. I'm sure somewhere there exists a standard on this sort of thing, but I'm not really aware of it. Open to suggestions all around.

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
  17. JimDawson

    JimDawson Global Moderator Staff Member Director

    Likes Received:
    3,785
    Trophy Points:
    113
    City:
    Sandy
    State:
    Oregon

    -Return to Top-

    Let's start with the power distribution. I would come off of the RPC to a 3 phase distribution panel, each circuit with it's own breaker. I would run everything in conduit on the surface, that way it's easy to add to and change later. In my shop everything but the original plugs is surface mounted, including the breaker panel. All stranded wire. Standardize your 3 phase wire colors so you know which is the manufactured leg through the whole system. I would use Purple, Orange, Yellow. On wire sizes larger than 10, you may have to get Black wire, and identify the ends with colored tape. Save Black, Red, White for the single phase system. Green of course is ground in all cases.

    As far as outlets, standard 30 or 50 amp, 4 pole, range or dryer outlets, but enclosed in a NEMA 3R box, like RV outlets. All of this except the 3 phase panel and breakers is available at any local big box store.

    For the lathe power, you need a motor starter large enough to handle the 15 HP motor. That consists of a contactor and an overload relay. Make sure the motor starter has auxiliary contacts for the seal in circuit. You will also need a control transformer, this transforms the 240 to 120 for the control wiring. The existing start & stop buttons should work fine. If you want to add an E-stop button, just wire it in series with the stop button. You could eliminate the need for the control transformer if you use a 240V coil in the motor starter and run the buttons at full voltage.

    Check with the motor rebuild guys, they may have some used stuff kicking around, a new motor starter that large is going to run about $300 for an IEC starter or about twice that for a NEMA rated starter.

    For the coolant pump and lamp you could also bring in a Neutral and just run those off of 120V. You could also run the controls off of that also.

    I would probably hard wire the lathe into the disconnect on the wall rather than plugging it in, it's not really portable:grin:

    When you get a bit farther into it, we'll help spec out that exact hardware.
     
    markamerica likes this.
  18. markamerica

    markamerica United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    City:
    Heidenheimer
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    Jim,
    Thank you. Right now, following your general idea of surface-mounting conduit was my plan, and for the reasons you mentioned. So, just for general flow in my basic thinking, I want to come off a breaker in my existing single phase load center to the RPC panel. From the RPC, I want to go into a 3 phase panel with individual breakers. From there, I want to send it out to (fused)disconnect boxes at the respective outlets/machines, correct so far? The RPC I was looking at recommends a 60 amp single phase breaker to power the RPC. That RPC will start a 20HP motor, or sustain up to 60hp of running equipment, allegedly. That should be all the 3 phase I'll ever need, even if the compressor is kicking on while I've got the lathe and mill running simultaneously. (Or am I mis-thinking here?)

    Outlets will be the thing where I'll want to exercise care. I'm a big safety advocate, and I tend to think not so much about me(because if I built it and installed it, I should danged-well have some idea what I'm doing,) but because I think about down the road, when the granddaughter is running all over creation, and how I make all of that as safe as I can. I worry not so much about what's in the shop, but more about the single phase 30 amp and 3 phase outlets I want to locate for convenience's sake in the aisle section. I suppose I could place them in a lockable panel to prevent something unforeseen. It's not like the kiddo will be unattended in the shop anyway. Probably won't be permitted in there until she's a teenager. I just know how quickly things go awry with kids... And while you can prohibit access, you can't be there and watch everything 24x7x52, so I tend to think about what happens when I'm not around, or not looking. It's that professional/parental paranoid talking here.

    I will definitely want to use a transformer to drop to 120v for the control circuits. That's the safest way to go, and as I said above, I'm all about safety. Talk to me about motor starters. I'm accustomed to start and run capacitors in single phase equipment, like my single phase compressor, my A/C system, and a number of other things, but I'm less clear on this "starter" business with 3 phase motors, and I'm wanting to learn. The machine has what appears to be an e-stop button(although it looks fairly ad hoc, as something either added for import in compliance with OSHA regs, or something added by the original customer for the same reason, but it's just got that look of something that got "tacked on" well after the machine was designed.) It may be that since the DLZ family was coming to an end at the time, that this way the factory's approach to complying with some reg or other to get them through the production run. Have a look:

    estop_button.jpg

    In any event, I don't know how it worked originally, and since most of the wiring is absent from this beast, I'm not positive what I should do with it. Here's a picture of the push-button switches and the run light socket(far right):

    switches.jpg
    The pump switch and the lamp switch are busted from playing with them, the lamp socket is missing its lens. The two important switches seem to be complete.

    There's not much else electrical-related remaining on the machine, excepting the motor itself, and that one device that looks like a relay/contactor of some sort. It's under a cover on the back of the headstock pedestal:
    relay.jpg
    The only other electrical items on the machine I've identified are the socket on the back of the middle pedestal apparently for a cooling pump, and another device I found discarded laying on the end of the headstock pedestal when I removed the sheet metal cap to look at the pulleys. It was just laying there, and I don't know if its a part of this lathe, but somehow, I suspect it might be some sort of actuator having to do with the aforementioned "electromagnetic brake." That's strictly a guess, but it's got an electrical box with contacts of some sort inside, it has what looks like a plunger of some sort, and its oily, making me think it used to live inside the gearbox. Heck, it may be something else. It could be some sort of device to sense the RPM since this model was originally equipped with a spindle tachometer of some sort, though absent. Not sure. I'll grab some pictures later and post them. Maybe you guys will know.

    I guess the thing is that once I have this thing offloaded and parked in the aisle, I have a little while as the new concrete work and construction goes on. I'll make time for some cleaning, and so on, in and amongst all the other doings in the barn. Oh, and one other question, unrelated to electrical... This beast has about four different shades of paint on it from over the years. What do you guys recommend for stripping the paint away? If I'm going to go through all this, I'd like it to at least not look like a wreck. I want to clean it up anyway. So I'll do a paint job on it. But the paint is chipping off in hunks in places, and it's really in need of some work. Recommendations?

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
  19. 4gsr

    4gsr Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    2,110
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Victoria, Texas
    City:
    Victoria
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    Mark, I have a size 2 A-B starter here with your name on it. Also have a control xformer and an assortment of push buttons you can have your pick from here too. Price is very reasonable. I like to eat!!! So buy me lunch and the deal is made! All you have to do is get you an enclosure. I probably have other electrical goodies here from past hookups you can have too for food.
    Jim mentioned using the four pole "dryer" plugs for 3-phase power hookups. That's not a good idea in my opinion. I would suggest buying true NEMA L15-30 standard plugs, either in twist lock or straight blade. These are for 240V 3-phase service. This will also make your insurance company happier too. Ken
     
  20. JimDawson

    JimDawson Global Moderator Staff Member Director

    Likes Received:
    3,785
    Trophy Points:
    113
    City:
    Sandy
    State:
    Oregon

    -Return to Top-

    Just turn the breaker(s) off to the one(s) you're not using. Lock-out plug covers are available also, very common industrial safety equipment. You were also talking about NEMA 3R or 4 enclosures for water resistance, most of those have lockable covers.

    An example of the cover I'm talking about (but not the receptacle inside) Note the locking hole on the right side. This is one type of RV outlet

    upload_2016-10-1_11-18-42.png

    As you bring more motors on line, they add together. So the RPC + the Lathe would give you 45 HP of RPC. No problem.

    Sorry that picture is so blurry that I can't tell what I am looking at.

    Going to need pictures for the rest of it.
     
  21. markamerica

    markamerica United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    City:
    Heidenheimer
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    Ken,
    I'm happy to oblige. I'll get with you shortly.
    And I'll do what it takes to keep the insurance folk happy.

    I like that idea.

    Mark
     
  22. markamerica

    markamerica United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    City:
    Heidenheimer
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    Jim, I'll see if I can get a better picture or two. In the mean time, what the heck is this:
    device.jpg device2.jpg
    On my computer, these display close to the actual size, maybe a hair bigger than 1:1.
    I don't know if this is part of this lathe, or just something that got set aside and wound up being forgotten.

    To the left of the adjustable wrench, you can see the cover that goes on it. No screws were anywhere around, so they're gone.

    Any ideas? I can't tell for sure, but it seems like it mounts with the two hole that go through the body, at either end, and the plunger triggers this switch/relay to some purpose.. The fixture to the left in the first picture and to the bottom in the second seems to be the entry point for such wiring as goes in the thing. I didn't want to spend too much time poking around with it until I know what it is, or if it's even likely related to this lathe at all.

    Sidebar: Once upon a time, as a young army mechanic, I was tasked with putting something back together that somebody else had disassembled, but had gotten hurt and was off to the hospital. It wasn't a piece of equipment with which I was familiar, but hey, I'll figure it out, right? So I'm looking at the tray the guy has placed all the clamps and hardware into, and studying the thing, and I saw a long socket-head screw, like 3.8" threads, and I looked at it and looked at the thing, and said: "Hmmm. Where does it go?" I pulled out the manual, went through the assembly and disassembly steps in the manual, and then I looked at the parts manual, trying to find that danged screw. I couldn't find it anywhere in any of the documentation. I looked at an identical machine, trying to figure out where the heck it went. I couldn't find it. Wound up calling the hospital when we found out he was going to be fine, a few stitches, some bruising, and the usual Army dose of motrin later, but I asked him: "Hey, there's this long screw, 3/8 threads, about five inches long, socket head, and I can't figure out where it goes...." He laughed and said... "It goes on [something else.] Just happened to be carrying it in my pocket because I saw one missing and thought to replace it, but put it in the tray when I set my keys and other crap down, digging for something else in my pocket." Lesson learned. It might not be anything at all related to the task at hand.
    I was a diligent young fellow though...LOL

    By the way, that covered outlet is just the kind of thing I was thinking about. The lock lug is exactly what I'd want. I'd also probably locate it at roughly eye level for me, only because that would mean it would be some time before it would be in reach of youngsters anyway.

    Thanks!
    Mark
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
    4gsr and JimDawson like this.
  23. JimDawson

    JimDawson Global Moderator Staff Member Director

    Likes Received:
    3,785
    Trophy Points:
    113
    City:
    Sandy
    State:
    Oregon

    -Return to Top-

    That's a limit switch. It looks like it goes with the lathe, so maybe used as a door safety switch or something.
     
    4gsr and markamerica like this.
  24. Cheeseking

    Cheeseking United States Active User Active Member

    Likes Received:
    201
    Trophy Points:
    63
    City:
    wood dale
    State:
    Illinois

    -Return to Top-

    Mark, There are many ways to skin a cat but it sounds like you generally have the right idea. You might consider a fused safety switch and motor starter as the input to your RPC which then can supply the 3-phase load panel. As far as disconnect switches at each machine that is good to have but not necessary if you have an accessible cord and receptacle at each since plug satisfies the disconnect means. Put the money you save on safety switches toward the motor starter.

    Here's my setup. 240V/60A/1P off main panel to 60A fused safety switch to Nema1 starter to 7.5 hp RPC to 240V/30A/3P fused safety switch to 3P main lug only panel. 4 circuits piped to each machine. Bridgeport, Lathe, Surface grinder and Baldor pedestal grinder. I also have motor starters w/overloads on each machine since the circuit breakers only protect the wires. Cord connected to outlets via twist lock plugs. Bit over kill for a basement shop but it was a fun project and ebay finds helped keep costs reasonable. Electrical stuff is crazy expensive new.
    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1475364724.718851.jpg
    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1475364960.676510.jpg ImageUploadedByTapatalk1475365003.311868.jpg ImageUploadedByTapatalk1475365075.385716.jpg ImageUploadedByTapatalk1475365186.307830.jpg
     
    4gsr and JimDawson like this.
  25. Cheeseking

    Cheeseking United States Active User Active Member

    Likes Received:
    201
    Trophy Points:
    63
    City:
    wood dale
    State:
    Illinois

    -Return to Top-

    Forgot to mention as far as preventing unauthorized access by kids or others, a padlock on the safety switch is an easy solution. I put one on mine for similar reasons.
     
  26. markamerica

    markamerica United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    City:
    Heidenheimer
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    I'll look around and see if I can figure out where it mounted. The only door on the thing is right there at the headstock end, permitting you to lube without removing the sheet metal cover.

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
  27. markamerica

    markamerica United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    City:
    Heidenheimer
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    Jim, that's really nice and orderly, looks like it was set up with functionality in mind. I like it. Very nice!

    What you say about Ebay is true. When I need some 22k mfd caps for one of my amplifiers, I always check there first. Sometimes, I've gotten lucky and picked them up for as little as $5 each, brand new in package, compared to digikey and maybe $40. It's hit or miss, but if you use the alert functions and narrow your search criteria enough, sometimes you get things like that way cheaper than retail.

    Gotten some really good buys over the years that way. Thanks!

    Mark
     
  28. Keith Foor

    Keith Foor Active Member Active Member

    Likes Received:
    197
    Trophy Points:
    43
    City:
    Johnstown
    State:
    Ohio

    -Return to Top-

    Couple ways of dealing with feeding the power to the barn / shop.
    If you have a load center in there keep it and add another. Or tap the feed and run it through a fused disconnect to your RPC. Then feed the RPC into a 3 phase panel as shown by others.

    Now feeding multiple panels has to be done in a specific way. And will require a buss bar feed.
    A buss bar feed is a 8 by 8 box with 3 copper bars in it that gets fed from a larger disconnect that is also fused back at the house.
    You will need one on the house as well. Because obviously you can't feed a 200 amp panel off a 100 amp panel. Inspectors will flip if you do.
    So you install a main disconnect that feeds the property from the electrical service pole.
    That buss feeds a fused disconnect that feeds the house.
    That buss bar also feeds a second fused disconnect that feeds out to the barn via a buried or areal cable.
    The bar on the barn feeds the two panels in the barn. Or a panel and a disconnect. If you are using a fused disconect outside to feed a disconnect inside for the RPC specifically, it does not need fused, only the one outside and it can be fused for the load of the RPC and not necessarily 100 or 200 amps as if it were feeding a panel

    Now this aint cheap. But it removes the need for a second service. Regardless, if you have a 200 amp panel on the house you can't put a 200 amp breaker in it and feed the shop / barn. So a buss bar system is the way to go.
     
    markamerica likes this.
  29. markamerica

    markamerica United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    City:
    Heidenheimer
    State:
    Texas

    -Return to Top-

    Keith,

    Thanks! I made a discovery today that makes me think I'm going just a little senile but also that a dozen years or so ago, I had better foresight than I remembered.

    Was out in the barn prepping for the unloading of the lathe, which will happen at around 7:00am tomorrow morning. Thought to myself, "you know, that load center I installed over there on the wall really looks too big for 100amp panel.

    Then I remembered:

    Back when we first occupied the property, I installed a second service pole where the barn was planned to go. It wasn't connected to anything, but I put a yard light on it to justify the second hookup and connection to the electric utility, which made them give me the third big pole we needed without cost. (Their rule at the time was that they'd provide one free to hop the highway, and one free per service account, but we needed two to get all the way down the property, so to get that third pole for free, I gamed them a little bit and put up that second service pole with a meter base, a disconnect, and a yard light, which caused them to permit me a second account and give me that third pole free.)

    On that third pole is the transformer. From that pole, it was like a Y with the bottom leg being the supply coming in from across the highway, the top left leg going to the service pole at the house, with 100amp service via a meter base and a 100amp disconnect, then underground to beneath my house, and up into the 100amp load center. On the top right leg of the Y going to my prospective barn and yard lamp, and to save money, I put the cheapest 100amp meter base and disconnect on it I could buy, supplying juice only to the yard lamp at the disconnect.

    When we actually built the barn, I put in a new service poll since the barn wound up 50feet further away and on a different angle than the original plans I had when we occupied the property. I left the old meter base and disconnect on the old pole right where it was, and had them move the connection onto my new service pole, and where both my senile moment and moment of foresight come in: When I built that second service pole and installed underground from the pole to the barn, and when I bought the barn load center, I purchased ALL 200amp stuff, including the meter base, the disconnect, and the load center. I just didn't remember this intermediate step, when I abandoned the old service pole in place. The 100amp meter base is still there, but a friend at the time needed the 100amp disconnect for his own purposes, so I gifted it to him.

    That's why I had it to give him. Because I'd already bought all 200amp gear for the barn when I actually built it. To reactivate the account now, all they will need to do is install the meter on the base, and I'll have 200amp single phase service, so that cutting out 60amp for my RPC and related actually constitutes a 30% bite out of my total capacity, and not 60% as I was thinking. This is both great news and terrible news, because it means a dozen years ago, I had more foresight than I can now apparently easily remember.

    So, I'll need the 60 amp breaker, a Square D Homeline type, and from there to my RPC, and from there to my 3 phase load center. Game over. So no need to ditch anything for the sake of an upgrade I already accomplished 12 years ago. I just need to add the RPC and the 3-phase load center.

    I'll take it as all good news except for the fact that I had to open the panel to remember it.

    Yay me! Did something right for a change! So once I'm wired up, have them reactivate the account, install the meter, and away we go!

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
    hman and JimDawson like this.
  30. Cheeseking

    Cheeseking United States Active User Active Member

    Likes Received:
    201
    Trophy Points:
    63
    City:
    wood dale
    State:
    Illinois

    -Return to Top-

    Gotta love that. Kinda like finding a $20 bill in the pocket of a coat you haven't worn since last spring
     
    markamerica likes this.

Share This Page