Leaning towards a PM-1030V as a first lathe, check my logic?

Every time I see one of these threads I feel excited for the OP - first lathe, wow!

You can certainly get lost or carried away with feature creep because for a few hundred more, look what I can get ... However, what should really guide you is what you intend to do with the lathe. Some of us work on cars and want to be able to make an axle or re-work a transmission shaft; we may need a 1340. Others simply want to make model engines or common stuff that the average homeowner might need; a 7X might be okay. At the end of the day, the machine you choose should meet your needs and not what you might someday want to make because that day may never come. If a 10" lathe will do it for you for the foreseeable future then you should consider it.

With that said, look at the differences between the 10" and under class of Asian lathes and the 11"+ lathes. On the larger ones, you will typically see wider beds (= greater rigidity), separate drive rod for longitudinal feeds (this means you aren't using and wearing your leadscrew to drive the saddle), and oftentimes a real camlock chuck mount so you can use any camlock chuck of the appropriate size (unlike the 3-bolt system on smaller lathes). Power cross feed is a standard on most larger lathes, even when it isn't all that useful except for facing big stuff at low speeds so I don't put much stock in that. Most larger lathes will also have hardened spindles with ABEC 5 bearings or better, while cheaper lathes will not. Also, a larger lathe will typically have a larger spindle bore and that can be a big deal in some situations.

The bottom line is to first look to your specific needs and buy accordingly. If your needs seem to be pushing you to a 10" lathe, carefully consider going to an 11" lathe instead (for the above reasons). It may cost more to buy that bigger lathe but it will probably last longer, be more powerful and more rigid and with a better spindle, it may also be more accurate. You will have a much wider choice of chuck options and a camlock lathe will probably have a better resale value if you decide to upgrade. If you really think that you want a lathe that will hold you for some time then a slightly larger lathe might be just the ticket.

By the way, the larger, more rigid lathe also impacts on the tooling you use. If you have enough speed, carbide tools will work better on a larger lathe. Just something to consider.

I just happen to own an 11" lathe with all the "good stuff" on it so I wanted to give you some input. Good luck with this.

Mike
 
My initial thought was the HF 7X. Then I found this place and started looking at the PM1236. After thinking on it more, I decided that while that would be nice, I can't think of anything that size I want to turn. I'd like the larger spindle bore and camlock chuck on the PM1127/1228, but for that cost I might as well pick up the 1236, particularly once I include a stand. I could mount it to my bench, but then a large chunk of my bench is not useable for other stuff, and I don't want to try moving a lathe on/off it if it's bigger than a 7X. Pretty much everything I can think of that I want to do on a lathe, I could probably do on a 7X. So the 10X is the upgrade. But I can think of a couple things that the larger, and longer lathe would be useful for. As I get into it, I may end up eating my words there, but even if I do, I expect I'll get years of good use out of it, even if I end up with a bigger machine.

The carbide insert tooling was in part to make sure I have tools that I know will cut reasonably well to start out. So I know it's not my crap grind on an HSS blank that's the problem. And my crappy HF grinder needs some upgrades before I can accurately grind an angle. I also get some different angled holders and boring bars to work with and learn more from. The DRO is because I know how to use the dials, and I don't want to. :) Simply put, it will make machining more fun as a hobby for me to not have to deal with it. Same reason I want a QCTP.

I've been watching local classifieds and such for used gear. But anything that looks to be in decent shape is more expensive, and often doesn't include much for tooling. Even the stock accessory pack from PM includes more. And I'd have warranty support with PM. I'm not really qualified to detect issues in an older machine outside of the obvious. And as I have no other machine tools, fixing issues could be difficult and costly. At the moment, I want to work on some projects, make chips, etc.. I want to use a lathe, not fix a lathe.
 
TT, I totally understand everything you're saying. Again, go for a lathe that will suit your needs. I simply wanted to make you guys aware that there is a difference in the builds of these machines and that there are features on the larger lathes that are important to recognize.

The lathe is, in my opinion, the best teacher for a metal worker. Even a small lathe will teach you a lot and everything you learn on a small lathe will transfer over to a larger one if you ever go that way. Buy what you need and can afford and move on if the need arises.

By the way, I agree that carbide tooling will get you cutting quickly. However, on a small lathe, HSS will typically outperform carbide on a small lathe so bear that in mind.

Good luck to you guys!
 
If anything, having a helpful, quick to respond community like this is super encouraging as I know I'll have more questions along the way. Thanks for all of the advise so far, and I'm glad seeing TT in basically the same situation, hopefully this thread can be of use to more people down the road.

However, on a small lathe, HSS will typically outperform carbide on a small lathe so bear that in mind.

Mikey, can you explain why that is? Is it related to the lower surface speed related to the smaller stock used on smaller machines? Or something else I've not yet learned about?
 
Mikey, can you explain why that is? Is it related to the lower surface speed related to the smaller stock used on smaller machines? Or something else I've not yet learned about?

Hmm, this is a more involved answer that it might seem. Next thing you know, the guys are going to come in with the "... yeah, but ...". Still, I'll try to give you the basic reasons I said what I said but bear in mind that this is my opinion.

Okay, there are three general classes of tooling used on a lathe: inserted carbide, brazed carbide and HSS and it's variants. All three work on any lathe but there are significant differences between them.

Inserted carbide is nice because when a tip wears/breaks/builds up an edge then you just flip the insert to a new tip and go on cutting. The problem with inserted carbide is that it requires adequate cutting speeds that many lathes cannot achieve; accordingly, the insert does not cut as intended. Moreover, the edges of a carbide insert are often radiused so they are not really sharp. Of course, there are some ground inserts with pretty sharp edges (like the AK inserts for aluminum) but most of them are not really sharp and this increases cutting forces. In addition, most inserts have a chip breaker that requires a minimum depth of cut to work properly. Many small lathes are not rigid enough to take a heavy depth of cut; they chatter. So, you can't go fast enough and you can't go deep enough. Then there is the nose radius to contend with. In order for the insert to cut properly, the cut has to be deep enough to fully engage the nose radius of the cutter when roughing and at least a third to a half the nose radius when finishing. If you don't account for the nose radius then deflection becomes a real issue. This is a HUGE discussion all by itself and I've only touched on a few points. Just know that on a small lathe that makes small parts, speed and the lack of rigidity are going to be the limiting factors. These tools work; they are the industry standard for good reason. However, most hobby guys are not using industrial lathes that work at the speeds these inserts need. If you plan to work on big parts then maybe you can get into the right speed range but then you'd need a bigger, faster lathe, right? The bottom line is that inserted carbide works on smaller lathes. Will it work as intended? No, it won't. Are there better options? Yes, there are.

Brazed carbide is good stuff. It holds an edge really well, can handle deep cuts and high heat and it can be sharpened in the home shop. The issue I have with brazed carbide is that these tools generally have no rake angles and this greatly increases cutting forces. Next to HSS, however, I think this is one of the best tools for a hobby class lathe.

HSS is cheap, easy to grind and when ground properly, will cut with lower cutting forces than the other two. When ground properly, they have excellent edge retention and requires a few seconds of occasional honing to retain that edge for decades. Because of their sharp edges, these tools cut with the least deflection of all the tooling options and they will cut at low, medium and high speeds. They can be ground to greatly reduce cutting forces and this allows them to be used quite effectively on smaller, less rigid, less powerful lathes. The caveat is that the effectiveness of a HSS tool is dependent on how the tool is ground; a good HSS tool is not good simply because it is made of HSS but that is another discussion. Also keep in mind that no HSS tool will cut everything equally well. Each material you work with will have an optimal tip geometry and you need to be able to grind that geometry if the tool is to work well. Fortunately, this is not hard to do.

I put some thought into it and if I was a new guy just starting off, I would buy some HSS CCMT inserts from AR Warner and either their SCLCR tool holders or maybe a decent tool holder on ebay. That would get me cutting. I would also buy some carbide CCMT and CCGT inserts (do your homework on these) off ebay and give them a try, too. This is just to get you cutting on your new lathe and to give you the chance to compare inserts. I would also buy at least one brazed right hand carbide tool from Micro 100 so you know what the best brazed carbide tool cuts like. Then, when you can, learn to grind HSS tooling and do a head to head comparison for yourself.

One of my lathes is a little Sherline lathe. It will easily take a 0.050" to 0.060" deep cut in mild steel with a general purpose HSS tool, and then it will take a 0.0005" deep cut and actually cut it accurately. Try that with a carbide insert on a lathe this size and then you'll see why I think HSS is the best option on a small lathe.
 
Wow, that helps a lot. Thank you, Mikey.
It all makes a lot of sense explained that way. I really just thought it was a cost thing or custom profiled tools that pushed home guys to use HSS.

The idea of inserts is still intriguing to keep things going without stopping to sharpen (also an annoyance of mine with TIG welding after dipping the tungsten in the puddle), and I justed stumbled on this: HSS Tooling Kit
Expensive, but I like the concept.

Also, I am drooling over the PM-1127, but really don't think I need the up size, especially if it means waiting another 6 months or more to make it happen.
 
I don't think this has been mentioned, but the majority (I dont' know about that from PM) of cemented carbide tooling is not ready to cut. Out of the box it doesn't have enough relief, and should be dressed on a diamond wheel.
I don't think anyone will contradict me on this, learn to turn with High Speed Steel tools, once you're good with HSS and your lathe will handle carbide, try it out, but go for inserts not cemented, you get FAR better quality tools that way.
 
It is always a tough decision price vs. perceived need and what you plan to do with your lathe. But the two aspects that I believe are a very big step up in this price range, is the D1-4 spindle mount and the 1.5" bore. These make a significant difference in availability of chucks and the size of the work your machine can handle. I wish my 1340GT had a 2" spindle bore, but I get by just fine with the 1.5", anything smaller would be a real hassle. But it all depends on what you plan to do with the lathe and the price point. If you are just making pens or smalls, then a larger spindle bore would be pointless.

I also concur with Mikey on the use of inserts on a smaller lathe, but there are many factors which should not deter one from at least trying carbide inserts. As he mentioned there are some very sharp carbide (ground edge) inserts with a highly positive cutting edge, I can routinely cut a 0.005" depth of cut in different materials and it peels away the metal like fine steel wool. The other day I was machining some bike bushings to very specific tolerances and was able to cut in very small increments to the desired press fit. I use BXA holders with 5/8" or 3/4" insert holders, the 1340GT has good rigidity and they work well, but on a larger heavier machine and in industrial settings is where the insert technology really make a difference. Myself, I just do not have the setup or inclination to grind my own HSS tooling, but there may be a few exceptions. You can quickly get lost with all the different types of insert/holders, but once you start using them it hopefully will become clearer. The CCMT/CCGT is a great starting point, insert size would be something in the 21.50, 21.51 or 21.52 for an AXA setup tool post holder. I guess I am new school on using insert technology, just with an old mind to lazy for grinding my own HSS cutter for the lathe.
 
I really just thought it was a cost thing or custom profiled tools that pushed home guys to use HSS.

The idea of inserts is still intriguing to keep things going without stopping to sharpen (also an annoyance of mine with TIG welding after dipping the tungsten in the puddle), and I justed stumbled on this: HSS Tooling Kit
Expensive, but I like the concept.

Also, I am drooling over the PM-1127, but really don't think I need the up size, especially if it means waiting another 6 months or more to make it happen.

Please don't get me wrong. Inserted tools are very likely the most commonly used tools in a hobby shop. They work, its easy to change inserts so you can get on with it and you can get used to the way the inserts cut fairly easily. Moreover, once you know how the insert cuts, it will cut that way consistently until the insert wears or is damaged. As long as you recognize that the nose radius must be accommodated and plan your cuts well then you can use inserted carbide tools quite well, as mksj noted above. I just wanted you to understand that carbide tools work best on larger, more rigid, faster lathes, and that for smaller lathes, there are other options that may work better for you if you choose to go that route.

Only you can decide which lathe you will buy. There are features that are highly desirable (camlock chuck, hardened this or that, etc) but you can certainly live with less. Choose based on your needs and you should do okay. Besides, you can always upgrade if your needs change, right?

Regardless, give HSS tools a try. You just might be surprised at how well they work.
 
Back
Top