Models for grinding HSS Lathe Tools

Those models are out there because of your efforts, Jeff. The guys and I are grateful to you.

We aren't done. I still have to find time to grind that Shear tool but right now I have other priorities. In the meantime, we can all work on helping the newer guys with their tools.
 
Mikey, I just made your knife tool based off of your superb directions from page 4 and 5. I made a left hand knife tool yesterday and then a right hand knife tool today. I made both of them from old stock of 3/8” Sterling Circle C tool bits.
I was having trouble turning a grade 10.9. I tried all of my insert tooling and couldnt get the diameter to size. I also couldn’t get a nice finish on the face. The insert would skip over some areas and cut in others. I found this thread and went to work making the knife tool. What an amazing tool! I cannot thank you enough for sharing your knowledge. I can now cut tenths so easily and I can face and get a mirror finish without having to use sandpaper to take out the tooling marks. I think this will be my go to tool from now on.
Tomorrow I am going to make the square tool bit (right hand) but I am going to use a piece of 1/2” or 7/16” in either Rex 95, Cleveland Mo-Max ,Sterling Circle C, or Fagersta WKE 4. I will be using it for a lot of tool steel and mild steel and some aluminum. Any recommendations on which brand to use ?
Also, do you have any specs on grinding boring bars and flycutters? I think I read somewhere that you use Carbide for flycutters and I do as well but I am not sure on the geometry. Sorry if this has already been asked or if I should be posting another thread. I tried searching for relative threads started by members but cant seem to figure out how to do it.
Thanks again!
Brandon T
 
9t8z28
Welcome to the club. Mickey has done a great job teaching us new to the hobby how to grind cutting tools.
I use the Crucible Rex bits as well as the Cleveland but do not have the others you mentioned. What I have has worked well for me.
I don’t have much to offer on boring bars and fly cutters, others will chime in though.
Glad that you found Mickey’s thread
 
Thanks, Brandon. I'm glad to hear the knife tools works for you. It works pretty well for me, too.

The Rex 95 is a good tool bit; 5% cobalt but a fair amount of tungsten so it will handle the heat with harder materials like tool steels. A square tool will cut tool steels fairly well but a tool ground specifically for tool steels will work better. If you tell me what you're cutting maybe we can come up with something that will work better.

The square tool will also work on aluminum and is pretty good for mild steels. However, again, a tool ground for aluminum will work better than the square tool will. I know I gave the tool angles for an aluminum tool somewhere in this thread and it works well for me. The key difference between the square and aluminum tools is the back rake - this gets the cutting forces right up near the tip of the side cutting edge and it also really accelerates the chip flow, which keeps temperatures down. The square tool works pretty good in aluminum, too, so you might try both and see what you think.

As for grinding boring bars and flycutter bits, let me take them one at a time.

Boring tools can be ground to work very well. I can't even remember how many I've ground but what I've learned is that no matter how well the tool is ground or how hard the blank is, that old modulus of elasticity comes into play. A steel bar of any kind is still limited to a depth of 4 times its diameter. We can go deeper with care but consistency suffers. Contrast that to a carbide shanked bar of the same diameter that will go 8-10 times its diameter before running into deflection issues - big difference in depth, consistency and accuracy. For these reasons, I only use solid carbide inserted boring bars for most holes or Micro 100 solid carbide boring bars in small bores. I use inserted carbide bars because of their consistency; I can rely on them to take the cuts that I dial in all the way down the bore, whereas a HSS bar will not consistently do that.

Some guys like to grind HSS tool bits that fit sideways in the end of a steel bar. I've tried those but again, you are limited to the depth of the material the bar is made from. This doesn't work for me when I need to go deep so I don't bother with these anymore.

As for fly cutter bits, yeah, they work fine. However, they do wear faster because almost every cut is an interrupted cut so edge wear is a factor. I clearly remember fly cutting a longish piece of O-1 steel and having the finish change as I neared the end. My inserted carbide fly cutters don't do that if the insert is in good shape, which mine usually are. With that said, if you want to try a HSS tool then go with M2 steel; it handles interrupted cuts better than the cobalt or high tungsten tool bits will. A left hand tool like @ttabbal said will work quite well in a fly cutter. The thing you want to avoid is a huge nose radius. I know that some guys like that sort of thing but it causes too much radial deflection so I don't use them.

Anyway, I'm glad you've joined us here. If you would like to share your tools or otherwise query, have at it and we'll all pitch in to help. The guys are now quite experienced and I've seen them step in to help others in other threads, which is awesome to see.

Edit: I have used Rex 95 and Cleveland Mo-Max and many others but am not familiar with the others you listed. Cleveland Mo-Max is M2, Mo-Max cobalt is 5% cobalt, and Super-Mo-Max is 8% cobalt; these are some of the finest tool bits made. Anything from Crucible/Rex is also very good. European tool bits tend to be really good, also. I know and have used ETM from Israel and feel they are as good as a Mo-Max bit.

I just looked at all my keeper bits, the ones I use the most, and they are made from either Cleveland, Crucible/Rex or ETM. One of my oldest knife tools is made from a Vasco Supreme T-15 bit - tough as hell.
 
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An excellent and generous offer Mickey. I would offer to help, but postage from here in downunder is horrific. I might suggest that you explain that british threads are 55 deg and widely used in british commonwealth countries particularly Australia and New Zealand. The threading tool is exactly the same as you would use for 60 deg tool just the included angle is 55 deg. Although we have changed to metric there is still a lot of old equipment around that uses 55 deg threads

I believe there are a few members on this forum who are proud owners of Hercus lathes and mills. They were, for a long time, made in my home town Adelaide South Australia, they will all have imperial 55 deg. threads.

You might also include a parting off tool as this an area where many people have problems, although parting off is a whole subject in itself and grinding the tool is the least of the problems.
 
An excellent and generous offer Mickey. I would offer to help, but postage from here in downunder is horrific. I might suggest that you explain that british threads are 55 deg and widely used in british commonwealth countries particularly Australia and New Zealand. The threading tool is exactly the same as you would use for 60 deg tool just the included angle is 55 deg. Although we have changed to metric there is still a lot of old equipment around that uses 55 deg threads

I believe there are a few members on this forum who are proud owners of Hercus lathes and mills. They were, for a long time, made in my home town Adelaide South Australia, they will all have imperial 55 deg. threads.

You might also include a parting off tool as this an area where many people have problems, although parting off is a whole subject in itself and grinding the tool is the least of the problems.

Thanks, Bob. You are referring to the British Standard Whitworth (BSW) thread, which is distinguished from the more modern threadform by having a 55 degree angle instead of 60 and a rounded profile at the root and crest of the thread. They are otherwise similar. BSW is commonly found on older equipment, for both fasteners and leadscrews. In fact, my Emco lathe uses a BSW threaded cross slide leadscrew; it is far more common to see this thread in countries outside the US. With that said, the BSW thread is not commonly used even in Europe anymore; the 60 degree metric thread is more common.

To grind a BSW threading tool, the process is exactly the same except you need a 55 degree fishtail and a rounded nose instead of a flat. They are used the same way as a 60 degree tool.

Parting tools are a lot of work to grind. I've made some in the past and they worked fine but in my opinion they are not worth the time and effort. A P or T-type blade is so much better, is fairly cheap and easy to find, are easily sharpened for the life of the blade and is my blade of preference. I also have inserted carbide parting tools but they tend to be on the thick side and I rarely use them. I'm sure others have the opposite opinion, which is fine.

I think that if you have a surface grinder and can grind the angled sides of a parting tool accurately then it might be worth the effort. I don't own one so ...
 
Thanks for the reply and also for your dedication to helping every single person here. I sincerely appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us. You are truly a huge benefit to our community and we are very lucky to have someone so dedicated to helping others.
I was gonna make a right hand square tool today but instead I got sidetracked and started on my second homemade slitting saw arbor. I made the first arbor for slitting saws with a 1/4” mounting diameter using the 10.9 bolt that I mentioned in my previous post and now today I started on making a larger arbor for my saws with a 5/8” mounting diameter. I am using a piece of 7/8” CRS and I just started turning down the shaft diameter to 5/8”. (Yes I know I should have started with smaller round stock but its what I got and I dont mind making lots of chips, besides its good practice:) ). I have only taken about .030” off the 7/8” CRS so far using the knife tool. I have been taking very light cuts ranging from a few tenths to .002”. I tried turning the tool bit towards the chuck, parallel to the chuck and towards the tailstock and have not been able to get a decent finish although I will admit that I can take skim cuts on the diameter and take off as little as a few tenths and the diameter in 3.5” only differs by .0003” which I have never ever been able to do with any tool. I cant believe it can skim tenths like this! Anyway, I tried all different speeds and feeds and it has made no difference. I should have made the square tool instead of trying the knife tool as Its my understanding that this tool wasnt designed specifically for turning as much as it was designed for facing or turning into shoulders. I dont want to seem like I am going back on saying how wonderful the knife tool works because it works wonderful, just not for what I am trying to use it for. It faces beautifully but I need to get a good finish on this CRS.
Is there a single square tool that I can make that will turn CRS and 01/W1 or do I need to make one for CRS and one for tool steel? I really dont mind making 2 tools if its gonna give me a the best chance at a good surface finish. I really dont need any tools for roughing, I’ve got that covered with a huge selection of inserted and brazed carbide tools and a bunch of AXA QCTP holders. I understand that less tool changes equals faster production but this is a hobby so no need to rush. Should I make a square tool to your previously quoted specs ? I dont really need any tools right now for turning aluminum, I just need a good finishing tool for 01, W1, some CRS and the typical mystery metal. Sorry if I somehow said I needed a tool for aluminum. I dont think I did but I am ok with turning aluminum.

By the way, not sure if you need to know or if its relevant because I assume that the majority of the guys and girls using these specific tools tools are doing so because our hobby machines are lighter duty, but my lathe is a Sieg C4. Its the slightly smaller cousin to the C6 or the 8X and 9X lathes. Mine is a 8.5x20 lathe. Its got a torquey 1HP variable speed drive and rpm’s run from 90 to 2,000. I also did away with the compound and have a solid toolpost which really stiffened things up especially for boring. Occasionally I put back on the compound for tapers and some threading although I would like to try threading with only the cross-slide. The carriage gibs were also replaced with tapered brass gibs which helped with lifting and I’ve also got a fancy dancy cam lock carriage lock for facing. Lastly the spindle bearings were retrofitted with tapered rollers and the lathe sits on a 3/4” sheet of steel spanning the entire length of the bed. I tell you this because although its in a light duty hobby class lathe it has been tightened up some to give it more stability and rigidity and it can take a huge cut for what it is in comparison to a 7x Sieg lathe. I have ran large engine lathes so I am familiar with their power and rigidity as well, not saying they are comparable as far as rigidity and power but just giving you an idea of what it is and how I am able to compare it.

In reply to the boring bars, I dont really have the cash for carbide bars that use indexable carbide inserts right now. I have a few steel indexable boring bars that use CCMT inserts but I want to be able to bore smaller holes. My smallest indexable bar can only bore from I think around .4” and up. I have a few long pieces of round and square HSS that I would like to grind into boring bars. I cant seem to find grinding info on bars anywhere. I also have a few HSS boring bars that I picked up second hand but they need to be freshened up and I dont know if the angles are even right or what they should be. Lastly I do have a few boring bars that use small square stock at an angle or straight but I don’t know what geometry these should have as well. Again I would be using a lot of tool steel and CRS and some mystery metal.
Just curious, what kind of inserted flycutter tools do you use, meaning what insert do they take and is the insert neutral ?

In reply to the flycutter tool, can I use a left hand square tool for the geometry when using brazed carbide tool bits or does the carbide require a totally different geometry? Same material as well, 01, W1, CRS and the mystery metal.

I will post pictures of my tools that I made to your specs tomorrow. Lately it’s been hard getting the time to get on the forums and ask questions and help others but I do the best I can. Unfortunately, Sometimes I do more reading and learning than I do posting!

Thanks, Brandon. I'm glad to hear the knife tools works for you. It works pretty well for me, too.

The Rex 95 is a good tool bit; 5% cobalt but a fair amount of tungsten so it will handle the heat with harder materials like tool steels. A square tool will cut tool steels fairly well but a tool ground specifically for tool steels will work better. If you tell me what you're cutting maybe we can come up with something that will work better.

The square tool will also work on aluminum and is pretty good for mild steels. However, again, a tool ground for aluminum will work better than the square tool will. I know I gave the tool angles for an aluminum tool somewhere in this thread and it works well for me. The key difference between the square and aluminum tools is the back rake - this gets the cutting forces right up near the tip of the side cutting edge and it also really accelerates the chip flow, which keeps temperatures down. The square tool works pretty good in aluminum, too, so you might try both and see what you think.

As for grinding boring bars and flycutter bits, let me take them one at a time.

Boring tools can be ground to work very well. I can't even remember how many I've ground but what I've learned is that no matter how well the tool is ground or how hard the blank is, that old modulus of elasticity comes into play. A steel bar of any kind is still limited to a depth of 4 times its diameter. We can go deeper with care but consistency suffers. Contrast that to a carbide shanked bar of the same diameter that will go 8-10 times its diameter before running into deflection issues - big difference in depth, consistency and accuracy. For these reasons, I only use solid carbide inserted boring bars for most holes or Micro 100 solid carbide boring bars in small bores. I use inserted carbide bars because of their consistency; I can rely on them to take the cuts that I dial in all the way down the bore, whereas a HSS bar will not consistently do that.

Some guys like to grind HSS tool bits that fit sideways in the end of a steel bar. I've tried those but again, you are limited to the depth of the material the bar is made from. This doesn't work for me when I need to go deep so I don't bother with these anymore.

As for fly cutter bits, yeah, they work fine. However, they do wear faster because almost every cut is an interrupted cut so edge wear is a factor. I clearly remember fly cutting a longish piece of O-1 steel and having the finish change as I neared the end. My inserted carbide fly cutters don't do that if the insert is in good shape, which mine usually are. With that said, if you want to try a HSS tool then go with M2 steel; it handles interrupted cuts better than the cobalt or high tungsten tool bits will. A left hand tool like @ttabbal said will work quite well in a fly cutter. The thing you want to avoid is a huge nose radius. I know that some guys like that sort of thing but it causes too much radial deflection so I don't use them.

Anyway, I'm glad you've joined us here. If you would like to share your tools or otherwise query, have at it and we'll all pitch in to help. The guys are now quite experienced and I've seen them step in to help others in other threads, which is awesome to see.

Edit: I have used Rex 95 and Cleveland Mo-Max and many others but am not familiar with the others you listed. Cleveland Mo-Max is M2, Mo-Max cobalt is 5% cobalt, and Super-Mo-Max is 8% cobalt; these are some of the finest tool bits made. Anything from Crucible/Rex is also very good. European tool bits tend to be really good, also. I know and have used ETM from Israel and feel they are as good as a Mo-Max bit.

I just looked at all my keeper bits, the ones I use the most, and they are made from either Cleveland, Crucible/Rex or ETM. One of my oldest knife tools is made from a Vasco Supreme T-15 bit - tough as hell.
 
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Thanks ttabbal. I thought it would but flycutters scare me a little. Its not the flycutter whipping around that scares me, its the time spent wasted grinding a tool bit that leaves me wishing I had just used an endmill and been done with it!
I'm using a left hand square tool for a fly cutter with very good results.
 
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