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10ee VFD Conversion

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deek

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#1
Hi All,

I wasn't going to post my conversion, but my buddy talked me into it saying he thought it might help others facing the same issues.

Here's my story...

I've been wanting a 10ee for some time. Out here on the west coast they are few and far between. I haunted auctions, used equipment dealers, and, naturally CL. I finally found one pretty close that didn't appear to be completely trashed and was a reasonable price. I bought from a really nice machinist in Oakland whose shop could have been a museum of classic lathes. He bought 3 10ee's at auction keeping one and selling the other two.

I got the beast home with no issues. Many thanks to Screwy Tuesday guy Chuck B for suggesting a hydraulic drop trailer. That made the move incredibly easy.

Once home, the fun began. I have single phase 220 to the shop, so I thought about what I should do. The 10ee is a 58 Wiad, so I could have run the lathe on single phase. It had been demo'd on 3ph 440, so I knew everything worked. I read all the opinions and finally decided to pull the Wiad and go with a VFD. There are a lot of good reasons to go either way - repair and use or replace with modern electronics. What turned it for me was that after reading all the materials on the Wiad several times, I still just couldn't get a handle on it. My brain just doesn't accept the magic of electronics as real. I really wanted to want to go with the DC stuff, but, in the end, I just didn't.

First pic is the machine in its original position.
10EE-03.jpg

First job was removing the motor and electronics.
IMG_0669.JPG

So these things are super heavy. I could barely pull the motor out onto a piece of plywood. There after I used an engine hoist to move things around. The electronics are also heavy. There's a handle that you use to pull them out of the drawer. The slides were damaged so it was no easy feat. Once I got it out of the compartment, I went to lift the assembly by the handle. Nope. Couldn't even budge it.

The motor and electronics found a good home to a guy who wanted to use them to repair his 10ee. We traded a steady rest and 4 jaw chuck for it. Really nice fella.

Next was to clean the motor compartment.

Before

: IMG_0667.JPG

After

IMG_0671.JPG

It was a dirty job, but my wife wouldn't do it.

I chose to use a 5hp with the back gear. Here's a couple of pics of the conversion
IMAG0177.jpg

IMAG0176.jpg

IMAG0179.jpg

IMG_0672.JPG

I decided to use a lovejoy connection and make the shaft adapter for the back gear. There are a pair of bearings and an oil seal on that shaft plate. I cut a key in the shaft and bored and broached the drive gear. The dogs on the shifter were worn, so I tig brazed them and then ground them to size. The key to this build, I believe, was thinking through the process and getting the order right to preserve alignment (although the lovejoy helps with any small discrepancies). I went this way because the motor required no modification, which will make a change out easier if needed in the future. I was a little nervous about boring the drive gear, but read that it was't hardened and had enough meat to take the 1 1/8 shaft with a key. Thanks to the guys who have previously shared their experiences. It's a pretty straightforward conversion, but takes some time. I think I put three long weekends into that part of the conversion.

I'm by no means a pro. I'm a hobbiest and pushing myself to learn more. My first lathe, a southbend 8k was an experience in tuning up a new machine. This was way more fun.

I mounted the motor on the original plate with spacers to clear the plate leveling screws.
IMG_0679.JPG

I had planned it so that the pulleys would sit 1" lower so as to accommodate standard belt sizes. That worked out just fine.

The back gear lever had enough adjustment to accommodate the 1" without further modification.

Next was the VFD. I used a Yaskawa V1000 rated for 5hp. I really thought about using one of the cheaper imports on ebay based on recommendations from many members from many different forums. In the end, I got the pricier VFD because the documentation was outstanding. I couldn't be happier with this VFD. It controls the motor quietly and the options for programming are endless. I've put in an external resistor and the stop switch will stop the motor in a fraction of a second. I put the controller in the middle compartment.

IMG_0680.JPG

I used 16ga wire for contact switches and shielded wire for the speed control. I used the original speed control knob with a new claristat pot. It took a while to figure out how to integrate it with the VFD. For the longest time I was fussing with the programming and pulling my hair out when I realized I had the legs of the pot wired incorrectly. I put the VFD on an angled plate so I can slide it out for service. I also put everything in water tight flexible conduit. I got that all buttoned up and added an emergency stop.

I decided not to use the 3phase coolant pump. Not sure what I'll do with it. I'm not crazy about using coolant too much. Again, I'm not really doing production, so I can go light cuts and take all day. lol.

I ordered the VFD with a remote because the thought of trying to run the lathe from the main control panel seemed impractical. I decided to make use of the end of the lathe. Granted, it's not easily seen, but the keypad easily comes out of the mount so I can use it if I need to. Mostly, I run the lathe from the speed knob and RPM meter.

IMAG0187.jpg

Now some of you will notice the 4x4 timbers the lathe is on. Those were attached to transport to make the whole thing more stable. When I got it home, I liked the height so much that I just left them on. I'll start a new post to show their replacement.

The conversion is not without frustration. I just kept chipping away at it until I got everything squared away. I was lucky to have a mill and lathe that were working so I could fab any part or fixture I needed. The speed control is excellent. The VFD can be programmed for constant torque, which is what I'm doing. I've taken some pretty aggressive cuts and haven't stalled the motor. The slow speed without cogging and without the back gear is about 300 rpm. With the back gear it's a fraction of that. I thought a long time about the 7.5 hp, but decided I just didn't need the power. Plus, the 5hp fits so nicely. I'd read stories about guys who had trouble getting everything inside the cabinet. I can run the lathe from the keypad, but I really like the original speed controls and switches. I did wire in the spindle lock cutout. It was a pain getting everything right, but pretty freakin' cool to be able to run the lathe as it was intended. I haven't figured out the back gear solenoid yet. I can't tell what voltage it's supposed to receive from the electrical diagrams... I think I said it was all magic. lol.

I can honestly say I'm very happy with the conversion. We'll see how it holds up over time.

Peace.
deek
 

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Eddyde

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#2
Nice job, Thanks for sharing.
 

deek

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#3
Removing the Moving Timbers...

Ok, so I like the height of the timbers I used to transport the lathe, but they were rather clumsy and did not allow for proper leveling. I'm also tight on space and frequently need to move things around to accommodate different projects.

Here's my solution
IMG_0696.JPG

The reason I'm showing this pre-install picture is because I've put plates where the original leveling bolts go. The lathe is intended to rest on those three points, so I fabbed these up to make that happen.

Here they are installed

IMG_0698.JPG

IMG_0701.JPG

What I like about this is that the base is now wide enough that I'm not worried about it tipping over. The leveling feet raise the wheel just off the ground, so the machine is only on the wheels when moving. The leveling proceeds by leveling lengthwise, then crosswise. I made it so the lathe is approxmately the same height as it was when it was on the timbers. I'm 6'2" so a little height was a great relief.

I wanted to make something that was reminiscent of that era of industrialization, so I drilled the gussets to be a little more decorative without losing too much strength. You can see that detail in this picture.

IMG_0699.JPG

You may have noticed the tailstock. It was gummed up and rusty, so I took it apart, cleaned it, put new felt, and painted it up. Here's a closer shot.

IMAG0190.jpg

I'm using a product called Hammerite. It's pretty amazing. This is 5 coats of spray. It's pretty rugged and resists solvents well. It imparts a texture and color variation to the surface, which I think complements the cast parts. I'm not a huge fan of using a bunch of body filler to smooth everything out. First because I like the texture of the cast and second I just don't want to spend all that time getting the surface perfect. You guys who have done that have incredible looking lathes. But that's just not how I want to spend my limited time. Mostly, I'm looking to get a good paint on a clean surface to protect from rust as well as provide some good aesthetics. I do tear everything down completely to clean, repair, replace, and refurbish, but surface perfection is not my gig.

peace,
deek
 

Doubleeboy

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#4
Hopefully you saved the innerds of the WiaD so that another can live or be refurbished. As you most likely know WiaD parts are worth some $. I for one would be interested in your C16J tubes if they are good. PM if interested

Nice clean looking conversion
 

deek

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#5
The Wiad went to a really nice guy who needed the parts to repair his. I traded him a steady rest and 4 jaw chuck for that stuff. I was happy that stuff found a good home and that I got a nice chuck and steady rest for the 10ee.
 

Silverbullet

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#6
I like the paint job, the bronze shade suits machines just like the different grays. Even the different grays with blue mixed. I'm not keen on red or orange. But to each his own. Nice machine hope the conversion last as long as the original did.
 

Karl_T

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#7
IMPRESSIVE!!!!

Great job. Did you fabricate that adaptor from the motor to the back gear unit from scratch? That ewould be a huge job. all by itself.

You are going to LOVE the 10EE. There is no other lathe like it.

My only suggestion. Get a top end DRO, like a Acurite. Most lathes can use any old DRO, but this one will easily work to 2 tenths on diameter.
 

deek

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#8
Thanks. I bought the housing, but fabbed the adapter plate from 3/4 inch aluminum plate.

The lathe came with a newall dro that I'm pretty happy with. I'm shocked at how accurate the whole thing is and the finish on parts is really a joy.
 

T Bredehoft

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#9
I'm envious of your 10EE, I'll never have one, (too late in life, no need). I would, however do something about those red and black trip hazards. I'd be on the floor half the time running that lathe.
 

deek

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#10
I'm envious of your 10EE, I'll never have one, (too late in life, no need). I would, however do something about those red and black trip hazards. I'd be on the floor half the time running that lathe.
Actually, I got a couple of HD 5 gal buckets, cut out part of each and placed them over the wheels. Got a bright orange cover and a foot rest at the same time!
 

MattM

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#11
Very informative. I have a 1975 10EE and am thinking on traveling the same path. The machine runs beautifully but sometimes just stops. The people at Monarch are great in helping me and they always get me up and running. But when I gaze into that electronic jungle I just know there will come a time that the old girl must be brought into the 21st century.

Yesterday I was drilling a 1/2" hole in a 1'' piece of 12/14. Everything was purring along at about 500rpm, I was bragging to my friend about what a beautiful machine and how much I loved it when, suddenly, it shut down. Probably not a big problem, I'll cal the factory and they will talk me through a fix.

Maybe the time has come....
 

deek

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#12
Having read a ton of the commentary on the lathe, I'm not sure why anyone puts a 7 or 10 hp motor in this machine. Of course I'm just a hobbyist, so I'm not all that aggressive. However, I've yet to stall the lathe when machining something. It just keeps turning. 5 hp seems a good compromise especially with the back gear.

Best of luck with your lathe.
 

Karl_T

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#13
Deek did a wonderful job building a backgear into his upgrade. He does not need a monster drive motor.


Building a backgear assembly is too much for many. In that case, go huge with the drive motor and run without a backgear. Remember a 10 horse 1725 motor has 1 horse at 10%, 172 RPM speed, 1/2 horse at 86 RPM. You need this power and speed to thread.
 

mksj

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#14
Very nice install, top notch and a lot of thought went into your conversion. If you have any drawings for the adapter plate, shaft machining and or parts available, it may help others wanting to do a similar conversion.

One issue with going to something like a 10Hp motor is size and significantly more cost, also the ability to match a VFD to this size motor. If running off of single phase, you would need a 20Hp VFD to derate it for use in single phase. The input power side would need to be for 15kW. If you are generating 3 phase to run a 10Hp VFD you would need something like a 15-20Hp RPC.

Another single speed option is to use a 5Hp inverter/vector type motor (Baldor IDNM, Marathon BlackMax) which provides full Hp up to their top speed of 6000 RPM, and run a belt ratio of something like 2:1 or say 1.75:1 for a maximum speed of 3500 RPM. These motors offer massive torque almost down to 0 RPM and the VFD can provide 150% overload for up to 1 minute. A decent quality single phase 5Hp VFDs are available for around $500-600, the 5Hp inverter/vector motors come up on eBay for around $300.
 

Karl_T

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#15
I have learned you do not really need to oversize a VFD on single phase for a lathe. It will run just fine and not kick out. Yes, you will not get the full HP at top speed, but you WILL get 10%+ power at 10% speed. Oversizing by 200% is just way too conservative here. Now my 20HP three phase irrigation pump that hammers all day long at top power does need the 2X oversize VFD with the single phase input.

All this asiide, yes, its your money or your time. A back gear and smaller motor is the better more cost effective way to go. Just takes more time to build.
 

mksj

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#16
Hey Karl,
I had a similar discussion at the Practical Machinist forum, and there are a number of considerations that enter the equation. The main factor as explained to me has to do with the input diodes going south and long term affects on the DC supply capacitors because of the current spikes and also phase imbalance with increased harmonic distortion. There was also discussions as to RPC size and issues with phase imbalance/current draw of the wild leg if one were to run a 3 phase VFD off of an RPC. In an upcoming install, I am adding a DC bus choke for a 5Hp VFD running off of a 7.5Hp RPC and we will be closely monitoring each phase's voltage and current. As a minimum from what I have seen recommended you would need a 15Hp VFD derated for running on single phase to run a 10Hp motor and probably add a DC choke to tame the current pulses/harmonics. If using an input reactor, then there is the issue of overlap of diode conduction but at increased PF/less harmonics. All these add to the install costs. No doubt the quality of the VFD plays a big factor in their longevity. There are a number of different options, so one needs to pick what works best for their situation.
 

deek

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#17
I've gotten a few pms asking for what I used in the way of major components, so here we go.

Motor - Leeson Electric, 171566.60, 5HP, 1760RPM, 3PH, 208V;230V;460V, 184TC Frame, C-Face Flange, Foot Mount, TEFC, General Purpose Motor from state motor and control
Vfd - Yaksawa CIMR-VUBA0018FAA, 5HP, 1-Phase, 200-240V (Input), NEMA 1 Enclosure, Variable Frequency Drive; Remote operator from state motor and control
Braking Resistor - GS-25P0-BR from automation direct
Lovejoy - 11093 Size L095; 11075 Size L-AL 090-095 from amazon
Bell Housing - 1-3249 from surplus center

The bell housing bolts right up to the motor as does the lovejoy so at least that part is easy.

I guess a disclaimer that I'm not promoting any particular site or brand or implying any sort of warranty might be required. In any event, your mileage may vary.

peace,
deek
 

Silverbullet

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#18
I think I've watched YouTube's that take the reducer from the original motor and make new mounts for the new motor to match up. And the same potentiometer set up with the chain drive to keep the original look and use of the lathe . They are dream machines for most , it's nice to see them being used and not butchered up looking. Great job on this one l really do like it .
 

MattM

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#19
Today iI took the plunge. Pulled the motor and gearbox. I'm going to follow Deeks path.

The motor and all the electrics and electronics are for sale. The gearbox is not.

Now if I could talk The Wife into cleaning that cavity...
 

deek

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#20
Awesome. Best of luck Matt. If you're ever down this way (San Francisco Bay Area) you're welcome to drop in and see my lathe. I'm a sucker for talking about all things machinery. Please post pictures.

Incidentally, I found some of my notes on the conversion. Here's my step through order of the adapter plate:

1. Rough cut adapter plate
2. Locate and drill index pin locations.
3. Insert index pins and join adapter plate to housing.
4. Locate and drill and tap bolt holes
5. Bolt to back gear
6. Mark adapter plate for final milling; remove and mill.
7. Join back gear housing and adapter plate together on the mill; locate the center of the large bearing through-hole; and mark with center drill
8. Remove plate
9. Locate, drill, and counter-bore housing bolt holes based on marked center. I do have a DRO, so that was a pretty effortless task.
10. Bore bearing hole. I kind of recall I was .001 under. I didn't want to have to heat the plate and risk warpage because aluminum takes a lot of heat, so I went for a less tight fit and lock tite retaining compound.

The key assumption was that the large bearing hole on the back gear housing was concentric with the axle. This method preserves that center.
I used unsealed bearings because they are lubricated by splashing. I'm still wondering if I should have just gone with sealed bearings. I doubt there will be much dirt or shavings in there... I know this because when I opened the back gear housing up initially, there was very little in the way of shavings. I did, however, add a rare earth magnet to the drain plug so that any shavings should collect there.

The 2 bearings are stacked with an oil seal on the outside. I used 60355K211 bearings from McMaster. Can't remember where I got the seal from, but it

At this point I should say that I considered making the adapter plate 1 3/4" thick so that there would be about 3/4" space between the bearings. My thinking is that the added space would make the shaft more stable because there are no end bearings. In the end, I decided the shaft was supported enough by the motor and love joy connection and that the stacked bearings were sufficient. I have no engineering analysis to prove this, but it made sense at the time. I guess it was a gut call. Please feel free to chime in with actual facts here on whether this configuration will work as that will help advance the collective knowledge of this kind of conversion.

I used Gray Blended Fiber/Buna-N (Max. 350° F) 1/32" for gaskets with sealing (permatex permashield) compound. I have no leaks in the assembly.

peace,
deek
 

MattM

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#21
Deek---Thank you for all your very helpful info. It shall be put to use. I'm going to print it and keep it in the shop

I worked in San Francisco for 27 years and lived in Marin so i am familiar with the Bay Area and will certainly give you a shout should we ever be in your territory. You are certainly welcome to stop by my shop should you ever be tooling north on I-5. We are in Merlin about 10 minutes west of the 5.

Now comes the hard part of any "build" the cleaning. I'm happy once I move to the "clean" side.
 

MattM

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#22
Deek---Any idea of total cost? I'm thinking I can bring this in somewhere between $1500.00 and 2000.00 for materials and outside labor. Certainly less than the $17,000.00 quoted by Monarch which did not include shipping.

I will keep meticulous records of materials and costs and post totals along with parts and part numbers of all components.
 

deek

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#23
I think I came in at right around 1500.00. I purchased everything new and nothing on ebay. You can probably do better if you search on ebay. in hindsight, I might spend more time on ebay, but because it was my first time around, I wanted to go with vendors with a generous return policy.

With some labor you could easily go over 2000.00.
 

MattM

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#24
Motor arrived today by FEDEX free shipping. I was surprised, only placed the order Tuesday. Picked up the 6061 aluminum from White City Metals $22.50. Would have cost a lot more from Speedy or Online. You can look it up.
 

b335249

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#25
Hi Deek,

I'm new to this group. So...I got a 10EE and it has no motor but a controller mounted that I think is some sort of DC drive. Anyways I want to put in the Ac 5hp motor and VFD and I have some questions...
1. my top pulley is 5.5" in diameter and the RPM dial says 4000 so what RPM motor do I need? Will the VFD run it faster than the motor data plate?

2. Mine has that electric feed reversal thingie and not sure if I want to keep that but if I did how would I wire that in?

3. What are the hooks for above the hatch cover (by your feet)?

Thanks!
Ben
ps. I have access to all sorts of machinery....shear, laser, milling, turning, tig/mig pipe bending
 

MattM

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#26
Welcome to the Tribe. Read the above, all you need to know. I'm in the process of doing the same conversion. With all that iron you should have no problem.
 

deek

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#27
Hiya Ben,

Welcome to the forum !

If you check out my conversion, you'll see the motor I purchased. The inverter enabled motors can run 3400 even if stamped 1750. (post #17) You are correct that the Vfd will run it higher.

I believe the electric feed reversal is for threading. You'll need to consult your wiring diagram (from monarch) to tell what you need to feed it. I don't have that feature, so you'll have to contact the guys who do. Cal on this form is one of the 10ee gurus.

No sure what you mean with the "hooks" unless you mean the magnetic hooks I use to hang tools off of. Those hooks are rare earth magnet hooks and easily support the tools. I've tried others, but they don't hold well. I'm still not sure I like them. A lot of chips get stuck on them and it's a pain to keep them clean. I'll probably make an aluminum rack that has hooks so it doesn't collect swarf. If that's not it, let me know which photo in which post.

Best of luck.

peace,
d
 

Karl_T

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#28
Hi Deek,

I'm new to this group. So...I got a 10EE and it has no motor but a controller mounted that I think is some sort of DC drive. ...

2. Mine has that electric feed reversal thingie and not sure if I want to keep that but if I did how would I wire that in?
Could you take pics? Yep, you most likely has some sort of drive still in the machine. Depending on which one, it has value to those still running a 10EE with the drive.

Do you have a back gear? If you do not, 5hp will be extremely weak to run the machine at slow speeds. The way this works, a VFD can run the motor from very slow and up to about 4000 RPM. BUT the motor power is proportional to the fraction of nameplate speed. For example at 10% speed you have 10% of the power.

It gets expensive, but a 10 or 7.5 HP 1200 RPM motor is the best choice for 10EE VFD without the backgear. The lower motor RPM on the nameplate helps a lot also.
 

b335249

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#29
Hey Karl...
Here are 2 pics. Yes if someone needs this...we might can barter for something.
Yes, I do plan on using the back gear. I don't know how new or original it is b/c the small gear has drive dogs rather than teeth (if that makes sense)
oh and yes, I know that's not how the drive belt goes lol
Thanks
Ben IMG_20180113_115409072.jpg IMG_20180113_120015747.jpg
 

Karl_T

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#30
Pic 1 looks exactly like my 10EE. I have not seen the item in pic 2, cannot help from just this pic.

Glad you have a back gear, makes for a much better, and less expensive, build.
 
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