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14 x 40 BV jog button not working

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solo

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#1
So I bought the lathe a few years ago,(time fly's) it never really bothered me, but I would like to get it working.
I checked for loose wires, everything's tight. the switch is working fine. The only thing I can think of is to ask my fellow machinists.
It's got to be something simple. What am I missing?
 

markba633csi

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#2
Did it work originally? Maybe it's been mis-wired all this time and you would need the diagram to troubleshoot it
Mark
 

Clock work

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#3
So I bought the lathe a few years ago,(time fly's) it never really bothered me, but I would like to get it working.
I checked for loose wires, everything's tight. the switch is working fine. The only thing I can think of is to ask my fellow machinists.
It's got to be something simple. What am I missing?
I built up a controller for my mill recently and forced myself to use the same rigor as if I were going to be asked to sign off on it as a full-on product release (former life). I did include JOG functionality. Should be a simple matter to make it fly if you're somewhat familiar with very simple circuits. There are blunt force approaches to this (not knowing your system, this is what I'm suggesting but they work) and there are clever shortcuts (see prior parenthetical). So, I would suggest...

  1. You have HW and you have SW that have to cooperate to provide the desired functionality. Be aware that you may have multiple HW configs and multiple SW configs that allow for JOG. Do ENSURE you don't mix disallowed combinations of HW and SW configs if this is the case.

  2. For the VFD in your controller, ascertain the theoretical SOFTWARE the conditions needed to allow for JOG mode, and then ascertain what you actually have. There may be more than one as I said... go into the display and determine if these conditions are in fact set.

  3. For the VFD in your controller, ascertain the theoretical HARDWARE (wires/switches/connections) configuration and then ascertain what you actually have:
    1. I assume your power and ground are fine as the system is otherwise working.

    2. Do you have the correct switch types in place? NO vs NC etc (this appears to be a frequent screw up in talking with others).

    3. Make a nice clean diagram and a "node list". A node is just all of the places between devices connected by a single conduction path (i.e. an electron can get anywhere on the node without passing thru the INSIDE of a device, so stated because maybe the little fella has to pass thru a device terminal but not IN to the device). Node lists make finding problems in complex-looking system... GREATLY reduce debug time.

    4. With the system OFF, sweep your wiring... do you have the correct wiring from each point on the control panel to the VFD inputs? Just work your way down the node list and verify continuity where you need it (node list) and not where you don't (PROBABLY not between nodes but maybe... thinking required if so). If it's all good...

    5. Turn the system ON and remember electricity can KILL YOUR ASS. DEAD. ONE hand in your pocket all the time. Keep your heart OUT of the circuit. If this seems even slightly mysterious, get someone else to do it. Measure the input voltages to the VFD when you actuate the JOG... OK?
If you get to the bottom of that list and it still doesn't work, God hates you. Sorry.

CW
 

solo

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#4
No it never did work. I never bother with it because most of my time was spent on remodeling the house. Now we're almost done so I hope I can spend a little more time in the shop. So I'd like to get it working.
I was hoping for a quick fix....life doesn't work that way. I'll start tracing wires. Power off, continuity check on the switch, to see what's happening or not. I'm not feeling God smiling at me, more like a smirk :( Thanks guys.
 

Ray C

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#5
Pay attention to basic electrical safety procedures....

Open the panel and make sure all the relays and circuit breakers are pushed solidly into their respective sockets. They are push-in modules. Press the reset on all the internal circuit breakers and make sure all the switches inside the panel box (if there are any) are in the on position.

I once did 3 days of trouble trouble-shooting with a guy whose jog "mysteriously" stopped working. On the 3rd day, the fellow fessed-up and said his lathe was dropped 6" when the heavy end was being lifted with a shop crane that suddenly collapsed. The lathe did not tip over but was jarred when it hit the ground and that caused a plug-in relay device to get partially dislodged from it's socket.

Double check that all the wires are screwed down in their respective connections.

I've also had cases where certain parts of the electronics would not work immediately after initial delivery and setup. Sometimes during shipping the unit gets bounced around pretty hard and I've had cases were internal on/off switches were stuck in intermediate positions. Toggle the switches and make sure they are solidly in a proper position.

Ray
 

solo

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#6
Thanks Ray, I pulled the front panel, checked the jog switch, good.. I'm not receiving power at the switch though. So, I'm thinking it's in the rear panel. I'm not seeing the wires, ID very well. Am I looking for 24vac at the SW? Then running through a relay for 220v for the motor to jog?
I'm not going to start tossing wires around until I have a clear under standing of what's going where.

Thanks again Scott
 

Clock work

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#7
I'm thinking it's in the rear panel. I'm not seeing the wires, ID very well. Am I looking for 24vac at the SW? Then running through a relay for 220v for the motor to jog?
I'm not going to start tossing wires around until I have a clear under standing of what's going where.
Steps 1 and 2 above... I would not trust my ass or my equipment to anything I read in a forum. I'd look at the actual VFD/model-ID that you have and which you are counting on to execute the functionality... and then get your hands on the manual for it and then do those two steps so YOU know based on what's in front of you what your machine wants. It's not complex though I also acknowledge that it's the default case that VFD documentation is TERRIBLE for all but a few brands/models. Your VFD is working to some degree and by Occam's razor, probably fully. It's not mysterious what it needs to JOG. It should tell you with a diagram and some text what it needs to do this... and then just follow those steps above to get there. I got on planes almost weekly for three-plus decades un-f'ing up complex high-speed electronics designs that I didn't design myself. You can't trust ANYthing anyone tells you (though interestingly you can use people's defensiveness to diagnose a problem behaviorally/faster than stabbing their prototype with scope probes for weeks). People half-ass nearly everything they touch (based on science) so you have to establish THE reality sitting before you yourself if you want to not waste your heartbeats as well as to remain safe. Having made one of the more complex controllers I could have made for mine, I'd assume worst case a couple of hours to be certain of the VFD's needs and fighting the ambiguities the documentation will embody, and at most 1 or 2 hours more to find the fault once you know what it needs and which tack the manufacture took if there's more than one way it can do it.
 

solo

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#8
You can't trust ANYthing anyone tells you (though interestingly you can use people's defensiveness to diagnose a problem behaviorally/faster than stabbing their prototype with scope probes for weeks). People half-ass nearly everything they touch (based on science) so you have to establish THE reality sitting before you yourself if you want to not waste your heartbeats as well as to remain safe.
Ho, Ho, Ho. You've must have stopped in at my place of employment a time or two. Engineer short cuts, lazy, never ever following up on a project they spearheaded, to take a first hand look at all the problems on the assembly line. We've been reworking the same parts for YEARS... WTF.
I am tired, I am tired, I am tired............Just done. 5 people quit in one week. This happens about every three months or so. Temps come in, temps go out. Old timers leaving too. Company is out sourcing most of the parts to China. Terrible quality. Everyone on the floor is just fed up.
From the gilded windows in the office, all is good.
I'll do my diligence before I touch anything. Thank you.
 

Clock work

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I'm really sorry to hear that... it seems to be the dominant sort of outcomes collections of humans produce. Don't be the last guy left on the hight road. It's unfixable. Look up the OK Plateau and/or "System One". Over the life of my company, I created about 75 jobs and SERIOUSLY... worst part of my work life by miles. When I get to Hell, I'm going to bust Jules Bergman right in the face for making engineering/technology seem cool. If it's any solace, the JOG functionality on my mill are the two least-used controls.
 

Ray C

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Thanks Ray, I pulled the front panel, checked the jog switch, good.. I'm not receiving power at the switch though. So, I'm thinking it's in the rear panel. I'm not seeing the wires, ID very well. Am I looking for 24vac at the SW? Then running through a relay for 220v for the motor to jog?
I'm not going to start tossing wires around until I have a clear under standing of what's going where.

Thanks again Scott
So sorry, this slipped past me.... I really don't know how that one is wired. In times like this, I get the Volt/Ohm meter out and start tracing things out. Give PM a call, see if they have a schematic. If you talk to Matt, he might have better ideas about quick trouble-shooting tips.

Ray
 

mksj

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#11
The 1440BV manual does not show the VFD connections, but most likely the the JOG button is direct signaling connection to the VFD, as opposed to a relay activated command. The schematic only shows a Forward/Reverse relay (and a gate/power relay). The first thing I would check is that all the VFD pin connectors (low voltage 24VDC inputs) are secure, the spring clasp sometimes does not secure the pin or make good contact. I would push each one in and then give a little tug to each to make sure it is secure. There is no depiction of the VFD terminal connection in the Shihlin Electric VFD SS2 Manual, but it looks like the default is setup for the inputs is in a sink configuration, the inputs are at 24VDC and when connected to the SD (ground/0V for the 24VDC circuit) it will activate the input. The inputs that are used is STF for forward, STR for reverse, and I am assuming that M0 input is reprogrammed for jog. Check the wires going to these terminals. You can check the continuity of the jog circuit switch and wiring with an ohmmeter (with the power off), alternatively you could connect a voltmeter to the SD (black meter lead) and to M0 (assuming this is the jog input or could be RES) and see if there is 24VDC when the jog button is pressed. there are several different options, but the first is to check the continuity of the jog wiring to the switch and back with an ohmmeter. One could directly activate a VFD input to bypass the wiring/switch to check if there is a VFD fault with a specific input, but I would check with QMT first and see what they recommend.
 

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Clock work

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#12
If that attached manual is for what's actually in your control box, it's a Chinese version (fully licensed and utterly and brilliantly and reliably executed I'm SURE right down to my core!) of the Mitsubishi 700 series which I used in mine, selected in part because 1. it's not Chinese and 2. above average but by no means the cleanest/least ambiguous documentation for applicable VFD's). A quick comparison of the pinouts, and the generic wiring diagram and the parameter list reveals some small differences isolated (it appears to me) to the upper/more esoteric parameters. Very small differences in the pin-outs of the device... labeling is all it appears at a crude level of first examination. But of note is that the Mitsubishi has a param (182) that is JOG on RH-ACTIVE which is not shown in the Chinese one but I am assuming actually is part of the firmware under some other label (I am unable to imagine a Chinese "licensed" [ROFLLLLLLLLLLLL] design going to a butt-load of extra work to redefine esoterica while leaving the big stuff identical... 35 years of protecting my IP from them talking there). If the OP would like a copy of my parameter settings and wiring diagram and I'll have to check for usefulness but the relevant pages from my notebook, PM me with a good email address and I'll send it along for you to use as a starting point. Still stand by the process above process and validating the reality that stands before you. Good luck.
 

solo

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#13
Well, I looked through the manual. I'm on overload. This is why I ordered the lathe with a VFD already installed, so I wouldn't have to suffer, I mean sort though all this information to build my own like many others. I just don't have it in me or the time and patience.
I'm still trying to wrap up the loose ends on the house, so I'll poke around and see what's going on. I admire all those who build their own VFD.
I'm close to getting out of the rat race, and slowing down. I just need to sell this house. Find another piece of land in the foot hills, build a new energy efficient home, buy a boat, and fish. Maybe do a small flip every now and then. I'm tired. I like a challenge, but I'm not a fan of electronics. It's not my thing. Interesting! But.....??? Basic electric I can handle. I wired my whole house. Ok, I'll bring a goat or something for a sacrifice
to the electric Gods and hope they smile down on me.
 

Clock work

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#14
buy a boat, and fish
"fish" (verb) = spend a wildly disproportionate number of your heartbeats fixing things and managing slacker/incompetent marine-services "workers". You're welcome:) But good luck on all the rest. Offer to share above stated information stands for when you're ready if you think it would help.
 

solo

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#15
After a few e-mails with Matt, I got it working. Three stacked wires in the KAO relay in the upper electrical box, looked odd. I took them out, and reinserted them.
I now have jog function.
Thanks to all. Solo
 
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