A question about the Logan 922 Bull-pin.

[Bob Kelly III]

Hi Guys ! I'm new here Just got mt Logan 922 from Bill in Redding...so Bill if your reading this thanks again !
My Question is a super frustrating one.... 2 times now I have pulled the pin to get the lathe into back gears and both times the pin has came out so far that the spring for the indents snaps down behind it and blocks the hole so you cannot get the pin go go back in.... so the entire spindle has to come out to get the pin back in far enough to lock the pulley for direct drive.... at least I don't think there is an easier way I hope there is !
I have not seen anything in any of the old manuals about the direction the side pin of the bull-pin has to be in a certain orientation or not ... they just say the pin has to be pulled before the back gears can be used..... ( obviously !)
but I have been thinking that the indents on the pin itself are oriented for different angles ...so it must be part of the "Method to their madness " I am confident that Logan would never have manufactured a lathe that putting the machine in back gears you run the risk of having to pull the spindle and parts all apart just to get it working in direct drive again.... because once that pin is out too far there is no putting it back in.....
.... I have not tried to loosen the V-belt step pulley to see if I can get enough room to get to the spring and raise it enough to get the pin in again , but I will try that tomorrow......
.....
also when I was working the lathe Hard in back gears it sounded horrible ! like maybe the cam under the back gears was rotating and slapping about
and I am sure it shouldn't do that ! so perhaps I installed it wrong as it was installed backwards when I got it home ( I don't think anyone has ever used the back gears in this lathe before ! LOL......so it could be all amiss ! when I got it you had to push in the handle to get the back gears to engage.... according to the manual your supposed to pull out the lever and it locks out by use of the prawl.... I found that taking the track lever out...pulling up on the back gears rotated the cam in the proper direction so that when you pushed in the lever the camalowed the back gears to disengage ... pull out they are engaged....
is there some special way to time that cam so it engages the gears properly ????
the reason I ask is it made a whole lot of noise when I put a load on it in back gears..... it took a healthy 40 thou cut but it made a racket doing it..... something ain't right !

so I guess I have 2 questions Bull pin and back gears.....
I am aggravated enough with that bull pin to take it out and thread the pulley and put in a grade 8 bolt just take out the bolt when I want back gears but I feel i am missing something has anyone else ever ran into this problem on a Logan 11" x 36" (922) ?
i mean it can't be that common... or no one would like Logan's..... LOL so what am I missing ?
thanks guys
Bob Kelly
.....

 

[Nogoingback]

Hi Bob, congrats on your new lathe, and welcome to the Forum.

My lathe is a 10", and older than yours but I think it's similar to your machine.

It's been a few years since my lathe was apart, so I don't remember exactly how the pin comes apart, but I think the spring
acts on a ball that engages detents in the pin. If the parts are correct and all there, the only thing I can think of is that the
spring is weak or broken, or it's the wrong spring.

Back gears do tend to make noise, but there are a couple of things to look for. Back gear is engaged when the shifter rack is
pulled OUT, and disengaged when pushed IN, so you're correct about that. On my lathe, the shaft inside the headstock is
supported by bushings pressed into the headstock casting. If those bushings are badly worn, that could allow the shaft to
move around during operation. See if you can determine how much slop there is in the bushings. Shifter rack adjustment
could also be a factor here: you want the rack to move far enough to fully engage the gears without binding. If it's too loose,
the gears will rattle. There also should be a latch on the shifter rack that holds it in place during back gear operation. If the latch is broken or missing,
then the machine will want to come out of back gear. Finally, if you aren't doing so, a bit of open gear grease on the gears
will help quiet things down.

Here's a link to a document about back gear adjustment: http://lathe.com/ll-group-archive/logan_lathe_back_gears.html

Let us know what you find.

 

[Bob Kelly III]

Thanks Nogoingback ! I appreciate the link !
well, as near as I can tell many of the bushings if not all in the lathe are new... this lathe was restored by the previous,previous owner and the last guy
really did not use it hardly at all.... the bull gear has 2 teeth missing that were replaced with small screws in the tooth row and then filed to fit
and a very nice job was done at that.... ( old style gear repair ) there is one other gear , the reverse Idler that also has screws in it and they are loose
so I am going to have to look into that.....
I am getting myself set up slowly to cut gear teeth on my 3 in 2 mill drill lathe that I got from Harbor freight about 30 years ago...
I made a fly cutter and have successfully cut one or 2 gears by guess and bygolly over the years ...so cleaning brass out of the gears to restore the teeth ...should be do able... but at the moment I have no ability to braise.... my oxy/acetylene torch outfit burnt up in the Ranch fire about 8 years ago
and I am still recovering from that devastation tool wise.... and I have no good way to accurately position the gear.... that is the major problem at the moment....
seriously i think 99% of the bushings in the lathe are good ... but the hand wheel on the carriage is sloopy... it needs replaced a 2nd time already !
LOL.....
I'm a Mechanic by trade and been working with tools all my life so I am no new comer to tools.... but Lathes are something new ! I've been wanting one sense High school ! HAHAHAHHAH
.....
Question: does your lathe's Bull pin need to be twisted before you pull it out ? does it have indents to stop it from going too far out ?
.... My lathe has no ball in the pin arrangement , just a hole and a rather heavy spring that falls into the "V"'s cut in the side of the bull pin
...i think my mistake is not turning the pin in a certain direction so the "V" are oriented to be inline with the spring to grab the pin before it moves too far out...... almost positive on that now.... but as far as I can see there is no markings on the bull gear.... for IN or OUT position of the pin....
....
I'm heading out to see if I can get that pin back in without taking the spindle completely out again !
Thanks for the Reply
wish me luck ...lol I need it ! HAHAHHAHA
Bob......
edited: I read that article THANK YOU !!!!. I did the installation of the shifting rod correct but I believe there is excessive backlash in the system there.... so I will try to "catch another tooth" as the article suggests in #6 ....
I think that will cure the "flopping around" i was hearing if I can get it a bit tighter.... no doubt it is a powerful lathe in back gears ! LOL
c ya !
Bob........

 

[Nogoingback]

Hi Bob,

On my bull gear, the pin is simply pushed and pulled in and out: it doesn't need to be rotated. It has a detent when it's pulled out.
I would suggest calling Logan and talking to them about what parts are required. They also sell a parts and operation manual that
I find is very useful. The website is: http://www.lathe.com. My guess is that you're missing a ball in your assembly, but I could be
wrong.

As far as adjusting the back gear shifter rack, you may just have to fiddle around with it until you figure it out. Like I said, it's been
a few years since I did mine so I can't remember specifics. It helps to rotate shaft to "cam" it into the correct position. Some guys
have slotted the shaft and turned it with a screwdriver, but of course that means taking it apart. I was able to make do by prying
with a screwdriver on the gear.

 

[Bob Kelly III]

Thanks for the advice it's appreciated !
I did have to pull the spindle again.... though that is really no big deal , though at first I was really apprehensive about tackling it...but it really is simple as long as you don't lose the woodruff keys !...
I think I fixed the problem... on the pin (that can rotate 360deg) there is a side pin for use as a handle I guess.... or indicator.... because the v notches in the pin only operate in a certain direction.... that is what got me both times.... the pin was not turned so the indent would stop the pin from going all the way out.....
SO.... I took a triangle file and cut the notch all the way around the pin in a circle so no matter where the pin is turned to it will still have the detent to fall into and prevent it from coming out too far. now.... as long as I am careful I can grab the side pin on the bull pin with the needle nose pliers and work the pin out slowly till i hit the indent and then I know it is flush on the inside and it's ready for back gears !
..... I am sure I weakened the pin a small amount but I don't think it will ever break because of that small notch ! it's a hefty pin after all !
.....
right now I am going to leave the back gears alone as they do work and I have some projects I want to complete.... ( i won't be using the back gears on those I'm sure ! ) but Fine tuning the lever is one of the things I will get to in the near future !
.....
when in back gears now the lever can pull out away from the spring pawl stop about 1/4" and I am almost positive that lever was moving in and out when I was hearing that rattle down deep in the headstock ....so I'll see if I can get it to where the movement after the lock snaps out is minimal.
....
.... I had to tighten the link belt from the secondary reduction to the spindle today as I found it was slipping. it's now got about 1" or a tad more deflection on the belt on the underside when I reach up and flex the belt. so it's not too tight,.... but turning that 4" pulley really puts a load on things LOL..... I'm trying to take the outside diameter down to make it level with the center collar of the pulley as it over hangs by about an inch
on the back side of the pulley I will leave it alone as that gives me more room for different hole placements..... I will have all kinds of room for many rows... <grin> I am hoping it will work good !
.....
I made the arbor from a 1" piece of galvanized water pipe.... I cut the pipe about 1/2" from the end at a steep angle ( more than 45 deg.)
and then welded a Nut onto the cut off piece and then turned a collar for the other end of the longer pipe and just Pounded that into the pipe
as it is a tight fit.
so putting the arbor in is a snap... I just slide the short angled piece in first slide it in till the arbor is butted up against the locking nut on the spindle
and then tighten the threaded rod nut ..... it works slick , no need for a perfectly centered arrangement here as the arbor centers it and although the threaded rod is slightly askew because of the sliding clamp inside it is so minimal that it will never be a problem . so when I finish the pulley
I can put it on the threaded rod and then have an indexing ability for the chuck on the other end of the spindle !
.....
I made one like this for the old 3 in 1 I have but it still has a saw blade on it LOL....
now I need a piece of brass to put in the boring bar holder , scrounge up a decent chuck out of the 10 I have saved over the years... and make up a shaft for it and I will have the ability to drill equilly spaced holes on stuff ! .... Pirty cool !
Winky's workshop has a good video on one very much like this.... but his arbor would be a pain ...I made an easier one LOL
.....
so I am back in business ! the lathe is up and running and I am all smiles !
Later Guys !
Bob........

 

[Nogoingback]

Glad to hear you've got a working machine. All you need to do now is post some pictures for us...

 

[Bob Kelly III]

I think I can do that ...here goes....
this is a pic when I just got it home and assembled....
and another of it actually running.

 

[Bob Kelly III]

also there is no ball in the assembly.....nor is there provisions for one the spring is attached through the boss in the bull gear( the lower end is bent down so the spring cannot come out) and the hole that the pin comes through on the other side has a slot cut into it for the top half of the spring to clip into ...and that extends down to the pin to catch the indents
.... problem was the pin itself which may or may not be original did not have a indent all the way around it so when I would pull it out past the first indent and there are 2 sets.... it would inevitably come out too far...... so unless I am mistaken, there is no provisions for a ball. a ball under the spring would not work as the indents in the pin would have to be much wider as they are only about 1/32" wide ....
it looks like it was designed to have to be twisted one way for IN and the other way for out in order to hit the indents the way they were....
putting a hand carved indent all the way around the pin cured the problem however .
the second set of indents to hold the pin in still function fine.... but of course the pin has to be twisted so they are aligned with the spring.
I could put another circular groove around the pin at the 2nd indent but that would make it difficult to pull the pin out.... so I chose to leave that one alone ! LOL.... as it is the side pin is to the left when in the IN position and when I grab it with the needle-nose pliers to pull it out I rotate the pin to the 12:00 O'clock position and then work it back and forth a bit while pulling gently and it slides out to the Out indent .... doing that before would have it come out too far as the out indent was all the way in the 3:00 O'clock position.... but with the indent all the way around the pin now it doesn't matter how it's turned it will hit the indent and not come out too far ! .....
hopefully if anyone else has this type of setup on their lathe they now know of a cure for the problem ! <grin>
Catch'a Later !
Bob.....