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Atlas 10f Reverse Gearbox Bearing

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louosten

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#1
Greetings to All;

I just discovered that the bronze bearing in my reverse gearbox is worn (and loose)...probably should not run the machine in this condition. I did not see a post for this repair (pressing old bearing out, and new one in). I did see a few Ebay posts for used gearboxes at the princely sum of $200 or more.

Has anyone made this repair, and if so what was the source of the bearing material? Thanks in advance!

Lou O.
 

schor

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#2
Got any pics?
 

wa5cab

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#3
Lou,

According to the 10F Illustrated Parts List, there are no bushings in the Reversing Gear Box.
 

louosten

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#4
Robert;
You're right about no bushings shown in the parts list, but there clearly is a busing in the housing, as evidenced by the following pics:
gearbox1.jpg

As near as I can determine, it measures 1" ID x 1 -1/8" OD x 1 3/4" L. Don't know what the housing is made out of, but it should be able to be heated and the old bearing/bushing pressed out with the correct tool. A new one with the above measurements may need some tweaking to fit, but it seems possible. I think this 10F I'm working on had a train wreck in a previous life, and the bearing took on some unwanted loads...here is a pic from the other side:

gearbox2.jpg

Any advice on this proposed repair would be welcomed!

Lou O.
 

tpic402

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#5
Just watched a Kieth Fenner video on youtube where he does a boat housing of some sort (very similar) He tig welded a round disk near to the end of the bushing inside of it as it cooled it shrunk the bushing and he pressed against the disk to get bushing out. It is a thought anyway
 

wa5cab

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#6
The gearbox casting is Zamak.

The following has been edited.

I would use a hydraulic press (don't use a hammer). Remove the selector first and make a support block long enough to sit across the press rails. Bore the block through 1.125" +.005/+.010. Counterbore to the diameter of the casting that holds the bushing +.005/+.010 to a depth of at least 1". Make a piloted driver to push with. The larger diameter to do the pushing would be about 0.010" under the diameter of the hole through the casting (1.115" if the hole is 1.125") and the pilot (smaller diameter) about 0.990". Or use your bearing and bushing removal and installation kit if you have one. Warm the support block and housing to about 175 F for both removal and installation, and work quickly. Use an oven or hot water, not an open flame. The installer should have the same smaller diameter pilot but about 1-1/4" to 1-3/8" for the larger diameter so that it will stop with the end of the bushing flush with the housing. If you have to make the removers and installers, make the 1" nominal diameter pilot about 3/4" long and the larger diameters 1/4" to 1/2" long.

If you don't have access to a press, you could also use the above parts but drill through the installer and remover for a piece of 1/2" to 3/4" all thread. And make a drilled through shouldered washer for the bottom of the support block. The support block thickness will have to be increased to give room for the old bushing as it exits the housing. But you could make it out of heavy wall tubing.
 
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pdentrem

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#7
Just curious, I hope the bushing is not placed in the mold prior to the casting being made!
Pierre
 

wa5cab

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#8
Well, I am not certain whether or not I ever saw a photo of a gearbox housing at that approximate angle. But if I ever did, it didn't have a bushing in it, as that I think I would remember. The parts list does not show a bushing. And I don't know of any other case where Atlas used bushings in steel or Zamak parts where the bushing wasn't shown as a replaceable part.

Correction - Bushing 9-26 is called out on the 9" and early 10" (pre-10D) parts lists.
 
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yendor

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#9
hThere is a video shows how to remove a bushing where he repairs the QC Box on an Atlas lathe.
Approx. 13 minutes in he shows the process.


The process involved turning a Stepped Part( I think he used a Washer in some places) that fit inside the bushing with a LIP that was just smaller than the OD of the bushing.
Then a 2nd part (he uses a socket here) was turned to place on the opposite end that supported the casting.
Both parts were center drilled for a bolt.
As the bolt is tightened the Lipped part pulls the bushing thru the casting.

The Zmak MUST be fully supported as it is very easy to break it.

Look up his video It may help.
 
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great white

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#10
I'd be super careful if you intend to heat that zamak with an open flame torch.

I don't have a lot of experience with zamak, but the few scrap bits I've toyed with melted pretty quickly when hit with a torch...
 

pdentrem

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#11
This morning, I found in my copy of "Parts List for 1036T, 1042T, 1048T and 1054T" that 9-27 is the reverse gear case and 9-26 is the reverse gear case bushing (not illustrated). The prices are no longer valid though. The later version "Parts List for 10"-F Series Atlas Lathes" Lathe Bulletin 10L-6 dated June 1966 has the 9-27 Gear Case with bushing. So apparently the bushing must of been pressed in originally.
Pierre
 

pdentrem

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#12
At the shop I do have to make from time to time some alloys that have Zinc in them but not as it's major element. (51% or higher).
In looking in my reference books, Zamak has on average a Thermal Expansion of 15 μin/in-°F and Oilite Bronze bushings are 10 μin/in-°F. So it is possible to push out the bushing with a little heat, but has to be fully supported all around the bushing.

Zamak has a Solidification range (melting range) from 714 - 734F. Zamak has a very complex phase diagram that shows many zones prior to liquidus that are of a slushy state. This all depends on the alloy as well.

My suggestion is not open flame in direct contact to heat the casting. Best would be a heat gun at low to medium heat. Not high which the ones we use can reach over 1000F. Might be a simple as place the casting in boiling water for a few seconds to a minute?
Pierre
 

Wierd Harold

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#13
Well, I am not certain whether or not I ever saw a photo of a gearbox housing at that approximate angle. But if I ever did, it didn't have a bushing in it, as that I think I would remember. The parts list does not show a bushing. And I don't know of any other case where Atlas used bushings in steel or Zamak parts where the bushing wasn't shown as a replaceable part.
Both the 10-D and 10-F reverse gearboxes that I have on hand have a bushing in them. I haven't changed one of these but all of the bushings in my qcgb pushed in and out with a simple nut and bolt arrangement without heat. Took very little force and no galling .
HWF
 

wa5cab

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#14
OK. The 10F parts list does say for 9-27 "GEAR CASE with bushing". And the 918 parts list shows Bushing 9-26. So all reverse gearboxes do have a bushing.

When I wrote above "Heat to about 175 F", I was thinking of an oven, NOT an open flame. Hot water would also work.

Also, I would call Clausing and inquire whether they have any 9-26 Bushing in stock. If not, ask for a drawing of it. And of the 9-27 housing.
 

louosten

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#15
Thanks guys...I've got some work to do before attempting this repair...will post pics once underway!
Lou O.
 

louosten

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#16
Everyone;
I just contacted Clausing and was told that the bearing is not available as a separate item; further that it was cast with the original part when it was made. This will make it difficult or impossible to remove without destroying the casting. I have opted to order the replacement housing (with bearing) from Clausing. In studying the part, it is apparent to me that this gearbox housing, and its precise operation with the leadscrew and geartrain, is of considerable importance to the basic operations of this lathe; thus the reasoning behind my decision.
Lou O.
 

schor

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#17
I am also in the process of removing some bushings from a quick change gearbox leavers. I used a piece of hardwood and a hammer to get them out.

Turned a piece of rosewood I had kicking around.
IMG_20150413_155924.jpg
It fits slightly into the bushing.
IMG_20150413_192616.jpg
IMG_20150413_192628.jpg
And the last thing was to make a spacer that would allow the bushing to go thru it but still provide support when I started hammering.
IMG_20150413_192653.jpg

I also drilled a hole in a piece of wood that I used as a support for the part as I was bashing it out. Worked fine.
 

schor

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#18
Everyone;
I just contacted Clausing and was told that the bearing is not available as a separate item; further that it was cast with the original part when it was made. This will make it difficult or impossible to remove without destroying the casting. I have opted to order the replacement housing (with bearing) from Clausing. In studying the part, it is apparent to me that this gearbox housing, and its precise operation with the leadscrew and geartrain, is of considerable importance to the basic operations of this lathe; thus the reasoning behind my decision.
Lou O.
Wait, don't buy it yet. I have a casing (itrs actually in California right now) I can get it shipped to you and give you a much better deal than clausing.
 

Wierd Harold

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#19
IMG_3225.JPG
Everyone;
I just contacted Clausing and was told that the bearing is not available as a separate item; further that it was cast with the original part when it was made. This will make it difficult or impossible to remove without destroying the casting. I have opted to order the replacement housing (with bearing) from Clausing. In studying the part, it is apparent to me that this gearbox housing, and its precise operation with the leadscrew and geartrain, is of considerable importance to the basic operations of this lathe; thus the reasoning behind my decision.
Lou O.
I hate to contradict Clausing but I highly doubt that was cast in. I had a spare reverse box sitting here with fairly worn bushing so I figured I would give it a try. I used a 13\16 socket on the inside and a short piece of conduit with a washer on the outside and a long 3\8 bolt running through it all. It took just a slight turn with a wrench to break things loose and the bushing came out by turning the nut with my fingers. It appears to be a plain piece of bronze bushing material . You should be able to get it from most anywhere that sells bushings. I got all that go in a QCGB from McMaster Carr.
should be a quick cheap fix. I might as well get a new one myself and fix this reverse box.
WH
 
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schor

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#20
Harrold, that it a great idea to remove the bushing. :encourage:
 

louosten

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#21
Ok Guys,
I'm in holding pattern. It appears the original idea of pressing the old bearing out has merit and is still doable. I have a rudimentary plan to assemble the necessary pieces and try it; additionally I have sourced some bronze bearing material at the approximate correct size. Schor, what was your suggestion about a replacement housing?
Lou O.
 

schor

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#22
I have a gearbox case at a friends in California, the bushing is in good shape as far as I can remember. I would sell it to you at a fraction of what Clausing is going to sell you one for, plus you pay the shipping from Cali. What did they quote you in the first place? I am thinking the $20-$30 range for the part plus shipping.

You can also remove the one you have and get a new bushing.

So you have options, let me know if you want the one I have.
 

pdentrem

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#23
Another option would be to machine the old one out and insert a new one with the OD of the new bushing to match the ID of the casting.
Pierre
 

wa5cab

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#24
Several people were writing while I was. To clarify, That (*** the puller made from long bolt or threaded rod, puller disk (socket as shown), receiver cylinder and one or two nuts ***) is essentially what I suggested earlier, except that the piloted puller disk is much safer as it is self-aligning and can't slip out of alignment as the socket can. If it does slip and you don't catch it before taking up on the pulling nut, you can and most likely will ruin whatever you are pulling the bushing out of.
 

Wierd Harold

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#25
Several people were writing while I was. To clarify, That (*** the puller made from long bolt or threaded rod, puller disk (socket as shown), receiver cylinder and one or two nuts ***) is essentially what I suggested earlier, except that the piloted puller disk is much safer as it is self-aligning and can't slip out of alignment as the socket can. If it does slip and you don't catch it before taking up on the pulling nut, you can and most likely will ruin whatever you are pulling the bushing out of.
I agree with you . I would not recommend this to anybody working on there in use machines. That was my quick and dirty try just to see if it would move at all. I was surprised when it was so loosely held in there. I would normally take a few minutes to make a stepped disk as you mentioned. That is what I did for the QCGB .
WH
 

wa5cab

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#26
OK. I've done the same thing in the past. You just have to be extra careful about keeping everything properly aligned until you take a strain on the puller screw. After that, it usually works OK. It doesn't usually matter if you mark up the end of the old bushing a little.
 

louosten

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#27
Schor;
I had been away from this message chain and didn't see your last request/invitation. Clausing wants $146 + shipping for a new gearbox case w/bearing. Your offer of $20-30 + shipping sounds very reasonable *if* the used bearing is still within acceptable limits. I would get someone to mike it and check before sending...if OK, let's do the deal. Contact me offline for mailing instructions, thanks.
Lou O.
 

schor

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#28
Lou, I don't always have time to look at the forums, pm me and we can probably make it happen.
 

louosten

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#29
Gentlemen;

Forgive me for overcomplicating this procedure; I didn't want to destroy the gearbox casing or the hole for a new bearing, so I carefully considered all the information posted and came up with this plan:

First, I had to make a guide that would fit inside the existing bearing, with a shoulder to grip the edge and push it out;
Gear10.jpg

Since the lathe wasn't operational I couldn't turn the 'puller' from the solid, so I cut the required pieces from bar stock and assembled them for a brazing operation;

Gear11.jpg

The assembly was brazed together, then tapped 1/2" x 13 to match the all-threaded rod I had on hand:

Gear1.jpg

The brass rod guide for the two brazed pieces was drilled out, and the assembly tapped:
Gear2.jpg

The finished 'pusher' was then ready to go; I had to do some clean-up filing on the shoulder to insure a good fit;
Gear3.jpg

I had a 28mm socket, 1/2" drive that fit the all-thread and allowed the exiting bearing to come out straight, but I needed additional spacing due to the length of the bearing, so I made a spacer out of a PVC pipe adapter, cutting recesses at both ends for the gearbox & the socket with a flycutter;

Gear4.jpg

Assembling all the parts, this is what I ended up with;
Gear5.jpg

Putting them in place, I ended up with this;
Gear6.jpg

The contraption must have kept everything in reasonably good alignment, because, after heating everything up in Wifey's oven to 175 F (she wasn't home), a few quick turns of the nut on the socket, I ended up with this;

Gear7.jpg

The old bearing survived with 'nary a score mark anywhere, coming out really smoothly;

Gear8.jpg

Here you can see the wear on the right side compared to the left; enough to make the shaft holding the gear wobble;

Gear9.jpg

I'll post a couple of pics of the installation once I get the new bearing; the reverse steps should be similar.

Since putting all this stuff together was rather time consuming, I'm thinking about making the parts available to anyone on the website contemplating this repair. If enough 'goodwill' would prevail, we could mail the parts around for the shipping cost; once you obtain a new bearing, the repair would only take about an hour to accomplish - your thoughts on this?

Lou O.
 

schor

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#30
Cool, you got it out.
 
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