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Atmos Bellows Work?

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tq60

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#1
We have a couple that need to be refilled but having difficult time finding ethyl chloride.

It seems it once was a common item for spot cooling skin for pain relief be to relatively warm boiling point it was safe until folks started sniffing it to get stoned.

It seems it is available via medical supply but need to be in that line.

Anyone here have access to that stuff

Comes in spray cans to canisters.

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Tony Wells

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#2
Actually you need a physician's license as it is subject to the same basic regulations as many medications.

However, you can get it through Fisher Scientific if you can prove you're a legitimate business. Search for Chloroethane.
That's another name for it, perhaps more current in general chemistry.
 

tq60

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#3
That could be a solution.

Thanks for the tip!

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quickcut

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#4
Good day all and apologies in advance for the hijack.
Is it a difficult process to refill the bellows. My Atmos also requires this
thanks

charles
 

tq60

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#5
It does not look too difficult and there is a u tube video.

Looking to build a fixture to hold it cold and compressed to perform process.

Just need to get the EC.

Photos will be provided when we get started.

If anyone can locate a source that would help!

We had 2 to be done but picked up a 528-8 at an estate sale this weekend and it looks like it needs it too...chain at 12.

Just a pain to get to so that one will be last.

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chips&more

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#6
I have serviced several hundred Atmos in my time. Changing out a bad bellows for a good one is not that hard. But is probably not going to get it running again. I suspect it will also need a cleaning and adjustment. To work on an Atmos requires a high level of finesse. Most people cannot just go out and buy parts for the Atmos anymore. You can find folks that will recharge the/your bellows for a small fee. Maybe not a clock shop, but try and find a knowledgeable repair person that just wants to help and not want your arm and leg…Dave.
 

tq60

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#8
We are aware that other work will be needed.

One we picked up earlier in the year looked like someone fat finger ed the fork and it was bent badly and after some time careful bending in situ we got the clock running. Regretting not taking photos.

It is running slow and needs mainspring cleaned but the ones with bad bellows will be first ones.

Have done many 400 day clocks but the atmos will be a challenge.

Lots of re - reading of what we already have read but the bellows challenge is the current task.

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#9
Today we took a trip to the last scrap yard that allows folks to wander and we picked up a couple items for making a fixture for the bellows.

The video had a bunch of clamps and that seems risky and difficult.

Plan is to make a cup bottom with a ring top that one can place in the freezer and it would have enough mass to keep things cold long enough to inject the EC then slip in a plug and solder it closed.

Found a pile of round torch cutouts of a bit over 1 inch thick steel.

They have what looks like a "," in the edge where the torch started.

Further looking found a couple aluminum disc's same size maybe 3/8 ish thick.

Spare time project and will need to hog off a bit to get past the torch cut but given it is starting round it will be simple for the 16 X 54 L&S.

AS PICKED TODAY 20161006_175935.jpg

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tq60

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#10
What it looks like now...

Did not have camera handy to capture the chip pile but taking a 5/16 pass with full pressure on the feed results in a heavy screw chip that due to the roach cut came out in chunks then last pad had to peck the cut when the chip was a 24 inch long screw.

Need to flip it over for other end.

Steel is 1.25 thick and bowl is 4.8 diameter.

The atmos bellows sits in it perfect and protrudes a bit.

The aluminum will make the retaining ring later.

20161009_164348.jpg 20161009_164322.jpg

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tq60

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#11
Flipped it over and used a length of steel strap as a cushion and gripped inside.

First pass about 0.2 DOC then second pass 0.3 DOC (0.6 TOTAL)

The fun of a real machine and horse power!

Just enough time to setup and 2 passes. 20161011_173318.jpg 20161011_173306.jpg 20161011_173256.jpg 20161011_173543.jpg

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tq60

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#12
The bowl bottom is done for now.

Have many other projects to work on so it may be awhile.

Need to make the cover then drill and tap holes for retention screws and rubber feet.

First did a sandpaper polish of the outside but that was boring so we knurled it with a tiny size and it came out real nice.

The knurled surface feels sharp and almost works as a mail file. ;-)

20161016_182558.jpg

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tq60

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#13
A little more work done over the weekend.

Made the top part.

While thinkinering this we realized we could not see the bottom when pressure testing and had an extra aluminum disc's so we are making another disk for a bottom to use for pressure testing.

Was in town yesterday so grabbed a couple more disc's for mistakes...

Tested the bellows in the freezer and nothing so it is empty of any usable gas and inspection of solder looks flaky.

Attached just a couple of the shots.

20161022_181917.jpg 20161022_181856.jpg


20161023_174142.jpg 20161023_174159.jpg 20161023_174217.jpg 20161023_174209.jpg

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tq60

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#14
Spent more time today after chores send completed the lathe work.

Decided that the fixture would not be good for pressure testing as we could not see anything so we made a pair of covers from the aluminum that will become pressure clamps and a third that will become the lid to allow all of the different spacers and screws to be stored inside.

We are sketching out the hole patterns for holes to be drilled for viewing.

The pressure test covers will store on the bottom via thumb screws as will the top clamp ring and cover.

The pressure test covers will add mass to hold the cold longer to allow more time to fill and solder.

It weighs in at 7 pounds so it should be good.

We have a remote thermometer that we will place in the unit to test it out later.


Here are some photos so far.

When it is assembled for storage it looks like a steel hamburger with aluminum buns.

20161106_163602.jpg 20161106_163622.jpg 20161106_163637.jpg 20161106_163714.jpg

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tq60

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#15
Have been busy doing chores so no progress on the parts but we did score a cool accessory for it.

We were planning on using the shop air with a regulator but no air where planned work.

At a yard sale the DW did not want to stop at we found a small air pump for charging bicycle air spring forks.

It goes up to maybe 300 psi with little effort.

So easy pressurize.

Sorry about the mat but it is what was handy.

Also did some layout drawings to use to transfer the hole marks to a template so we get the holes drilled correct the first time.

20161120_164747.jpg

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tq60

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#16
Was able to tinker with this project a bit.

Made an alignment fixture to mark the holes and still had a bit of drifting with some of the more critical ones but made other adjustments.

Finished the "observation holes" in the covers for the pressure testing clamp and drilled the holes through the steel cooling cup and tapped them all the way through.

We wanted to do things differently but did not have a rotary table so a ring of holes will do for now...

Tapped holes for the screws to hold the feet on and the holes for the screws that hold it together.

That was the most risky task as it is 1.25 thick steel and did not want the metric tap to snap.

It was larger than our Kurt vise so we used a 2 X 4 in the vise and clamped to it so it held well.

Wanted to use thumb screws but they are expensive and not easy to find but noticed Allen screws look close enough and had some metric ones that were a good size and I'll buy some correct length later.

What is left is holes in cooling lamp cover and the storage cover then making a piston for supporting the center of the bellows when pressure testing and indicating holding pressure.

Last is the spacers for between the clamp faces.

20161125_175002.jpg 20161125_174920.jpg 20161125_174907.jpg 20161125_175153.jpg

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tq60

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#17
Made the spacers today so the fixture is finished.

Added a support disk made from the slug removed from the cooling clamp cover.

It supports the boss where the bellows spring normally goes so when we apply some pressure the bellows holds it proper shape and is supported close to same way the clock does.

Could not find a suitable hose to connect the pump to the bellows.

We did find a chunk of tubing that is a bit small so we used it for the attached photos.

Tomorrow will be shopping day...hobby store for small brass tubing to make the coupler for the pump to tubing and some fuel line for the hose and maybe some type of spring clamp to secure it.

Then on to hardware store to get correct length metric screws to hold it all together, the ones we are using were in a bucket of estate sale hardware so different lengths and crudy...

With any luck next weekend we may be able to test it.

Still working on source for ethyl chloride.

20161127_164034.jpg 20161127_164024.jpg 20161127_164257.jpg 20161127_164302.jpg 20161127_164403.jpg

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Tony Wells

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#18
OK, I need a little enlightenment here. Exactly what is the objective, beyond simply getting the EC in a sealed bellows? Details please, if you don't mind. Clock repair may be in my future, so I may as well begin my knowledge base.
 

tq60

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#19
The atmos is self winding via a "thermal motor" which is a bellows filled with a small amount of ethyl chloride.

The group that we have are all made in the 50 ' s and they have lost their charge.

There is one party who charges them and not sure about repairing, but we saw the video and figured we could too but the clamps in the video were sloppy.

Being a tinkerer we came up with an idea then while digging at the scrap yard we located materials then the design popped.

We found a 1.25 inch thick steel disk slug that we made the "cooling cup", this along with a clamping cover are placed in the freezer with the bellows in place.

This weighs about 7 pounds and should keep it below boiling ( about 50 degrees) long enough to charge and solder the thing closed.

As we built it the design changed a bit as we determined we needed to figure out how they lost their charge and close inspection shows not so stellar soldering so we believe we could pressurize them like checking a tire for holes but needed to keep it from exploding so we made the disks with holes to allow us to hold it under water and pressurize it and look for leaks.

Struck out on the shopping trip today...The hobby store near work is long gone and hardware store thinks their screws are gold...driving into fresno later to mid valley to get the screws.

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#20
We had success yesterday at the hobby store and things have changed in the 10 years since we been to one...everything pre packaged and narrow selections with no more bulk things...but back to topic.

Got some small fuel line to couple the air pump to the bellows and a chunk of brass tubing for the adaptor.

Stopped by a hardware store and got some 1/8 inch o rings for slip clamps.

Today after chores we got to try it out.

SUCCESS !!!!

The ports were crimped and soldered so we used a dental bur in a high speed hand piece to cut it off.

We will make a tapered wire plug that we can solder in place to plug it.

Inserted the bellows into the fixture and pumped it up to about 10 psi and dunked it in water and sure enough BUBBLES!

Shifted and refilled to get bubbles in center of a viewport and scratched it.

It looks okay but tiny tiny spot so re flowed the area with some added solder and flux ten retested at 50 psi and no bubbles so test and repair was a success.

We still need to get some EC but now we have confirmed why the bellows failed and have repaired it and confirmed sound repair.

Note to others...
With just lung pressure you can make the bellows expand so considering the large size the area of the effective piston is fairly large so a minimal pressure can push quite a bit.

The clamp holds well but for fun we just pumped a few strokes with the pump and the hand tight screws were drawn tight and could no longer be turned by hand even though the needle on the indicator bib not move.

So if you wish to pressure test one be sure to make a cage that properly supports the unit to avoid damaging it.

The loose hardware all stores inside the unit.

Some photos... 20161203_125634.jpg 20161203_131647.jpg 20161203_132247.jpg 20161203_132446.jpg 20161203_133047.jpg 20161203_140719.jpg 20161203_144053.jpg

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Tony Wells

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#21
OK.....so far so good. So, is there a specified amount of EC to have contained? If so, how do you plan on keeping such a volatile substance contained to prevent evaporation loss? Keeping it (along with the entire bellows assembly) below it's vaporization temperature? And at the same time, solder closed the service port? I know at room temperature, soldering hollow objects can be tricky. For example, something as simple as a brass carburetor float tends to suck the solder in as the air inside cools enough to change the internal pressure and draw the solder in before it solidifies. The only trick I know of for that is to keep the entire float near or slightly above the solder melting point. Or is there a sealant of some sort other than soft solder than can be used?
 

tq60

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#22
The temperature control was the start of this.

There is a u tube video of someone charging one and with the boil point at 50 degrees he used clamps and freezer with bed of ice.

Sloppy and risky but worked.

Our goal was to build something that both would clamp it closed as well as maintain the temperature below the 50 long enough to do the work.

The clamp bowl with the pressure covers stored on the bottom weighs in at about 7 pounds.

So assembling it and tossing it in the freezer overnight should allow it to stay real cold plenty long enough to fill plug and solder.

The volume suggested on the video is 5 ml liquid so that is starting point.

The factory crimped and soldered which is not servicable so our plan is to use copper wire of #14 or #12 and with the high speed hand piece make a very small degree taper just like taper pins have and fit that to the port so pressing it into the port alone should seal it then solder in place.

Have not tested hold time yet but assuming it takes just a few minutes to do we should have plenty of time.

The port is somewhat elevated and on opposite side of the bellows.

The 5 ml is a small amount that should be resting on the bottom surface which is against the cold steel.

This allows it to be serviced if the 5 ml amount is not correct.

Contacted FDA regarding controls of EC and they only are concerned with medical use and could care less regarding industrial uses such as this so no concerns regarding possesion.

The problem is the usual sources in the quantity that one needs are purely medical and are only licensed to sell as medical...

Working a few different angles to see how we can get some...

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Tony Wells

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#23
OK then next, how do you test/verify that the temperature/physical expansion curve is correct? Is there a specification for that? I would have to assume so.
 

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#25
The stuff on ebay is something different.

Only thing that shows up there is empty containers.

Maybe folks buy them then fill with something else to sell to dope heads.

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#26
OK then next, how do you test/verify that the temperature/physical expansion curve is correct? Is there a specification for that? I would have to assume so.
Not sure what you mean here.

If we were using a different gas maybe but it is listed as Ethyl chloride gas in multiple places so we will use that.

We do test the bellows by freezing it then assembling it into its housing.

Then observe that it reacts to temperature change.



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Tony Wells

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#27
I'm just questioning how much expansion you will see when the assembly returns to room temperature, and an equilibrium forms between the liquid space and vapor space. At some point, it will reach the saturated vapor pressure in the bellows unless there is an incorrect amount of EC present. Of course, this exact saturation point will vary with temperature, as will the pressure within the bellows. But then, since they are bellows, they can expand or contact to keep the volume needed to maintain that equilibrium. So, basically I guess I want to know if there are specific dimensions (length primarily, or course) for a given temperature already worked out to verify that you have the correct amount of EC inside? And would there be several temperatures at which this dimension would be checked?

It seems that the volume for a bellows set would be basically fixed as a standard with it compressed, and if "someone" says 50 cc (ml) is the correct amount of EC (at what temp?) then this information has been verified or specified by some precision means, perhaps at the OEM level.
 

tq60

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#28
OEM...?

You are funny guy....

They do not give out much info so it is just what yiu can find.

With the bellows in its housing it has a stiff spring to place counter pressure against the gas.

Reason for making the port servicable is if the volume is not correct we can add or subtract some as needed.

Atmos man has a great amount of information including testing the operation and it seems they operate over a range of volumes as he indicates some with partial loss still work but at a lesser range.if at room temperature it is fully expanded an placing an ice cube in the cavity causes it to colapse then we could call it good.

We could take one from aa good unit and do some specific temperature and measurements if need as the volume of gas may matter a bit but if we recall from basic physics the boiling point is based on pressure and temperature and not volume so as long as there remains some liquid the boiling point would increase as temperature rises and increase pressure against the spring.



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Tony Wells

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#29
Forgive my questions if they seem to make me dense. I'm just trying to see how these things work. You are correct that the bp does not change with volume. However, the pressure in a closed vessel will change as the temperature changes; but in this case the volume is allowed to change along with the temperature and the bp will stay the same, only varying by any restriction of movement that may keep the volume from changing proportionately with that temperature. I didn't know about the spring either. This is why I asked if there was a temperature/expansion curve that should be checked.

To show what little I know, I don't even know the overall function of this particular component. If you don't mind, give me a brief rundown on the basics. Just what does this bellows do? I guess deep down I am also wondering if it MUST be EC or if another, perhaps easier to source substance could be used.
 
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Superburban

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#30
I'm with Tony, still trying to grasp the whole concept. I'm assuming that the bellows winds the clock spring. But do not see how there would be enough temp/ and or barometric pressure changes over a few days period that the clock would need to keep the clock spring wound. I have one of those fancy clocks that has time/ indoor & outdoor temp, and in the winter, the indoor temp hardly ever changes, and then it is only one degree.
 
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