Awesome New Mill- Is it worth it?

Matt, owner of Precision Matthews, is a member and often poster here on H-M. He seems to be mostly a one man show at PM, perhaps with some helpers. A lot of people on this site have PM equipment. I suspect you will get a response from Matt soon, either here, privately, or both. Matt has a very good reputation on this site from the posts I have seen. Disclaimer: I do not know Matt, and have never inquired PM or done any business with them. From what I have seen on H-M, Matt seems like a straight shooter...

Yes, his presence on forums and the great rep he has here are large factors in my decision to go with them.

I bet you're right about the one man show with helpers, does seem that way.

I've emailed him, Jeff, and the sales email explaining my desire to buy the mill. I suspect I will hear back soon, I can undestand how busy a sole proprietor must be!

In fact, I DO want to work with him, because I'd rather support him than Grizz.

I agree Matt seems like straight shooter, that's why I'm willing to buy a "return" that he says will work. Hopefully I hear from him soon!
 
I vote variable speed, if you ever want to power tap you want as slow as possible. Even using a fly cutter on aluminum you wouldn't run real fast . Tiny drills and endmills yes . Just my thoughts.
 
Everything is at a price point, but I would not buy a mill just because it is a special deal but you will quickly grow out of it. If you want a mill to just play around with occasionally that is fine, but do not expect a 2 speed variable speed mill with 1Hp to be boring large holes with it.

You also need to think beyond the speeds and what you are going to be putting on the table, i.e. travel/size. If you look at most purposely built variable speed mills and lathes, in many cases they are 2 or sometimes have 3 speed ranges, the motors are usually oversized to compensate for torque/Hp drop fall off across the operating range. If you are going to do just high speed work, then the PM727 variable speed would be a good choice, if you want/need low speed capability then you I would recommend looking into something like the PM-30MV, which has a 2Hp motor and a slightly bigger working envelope. The PM-930MV runs off of 220V, so you need to factor if that is available, but the difference in performance will be significant at a small increase in cost (about $250 over the PM-927M). Personally I feel 6 speeds is somewhat limiting getting the sweet spot for different materials, and you are limited by both the low and high speed range. Getting a fixed gear mill and adding variable speed will not be cost effective, you are limited by the Hp of the motor. Gear heads are also very noisy and there are other high speed limitations, most variable speed "conversions" entail a two speed belt drive and removing the gear drive.


This is a great reply with some clearly sage advice. I appreciate your input, and I agree with it although I have some limitations that make it so that I do have to make some compromises.

For one, your description of "you want a mill to just play around with occasionally that is fine" is exactly right, that is exactly my usage case. I'm no pro, just dick around with stuff in my garage. This is a toy for me. I do not expect to bore large holes. (a HUGE hole to me is 2")

We've been discussing the torque issue, my plan is to convert the mill myself and if I do, I can put a pretty stout motor on it. I'm glad you say that if I'm intending to mess around at high speed with aluminum that the 727 with variable speed is a good choice, bacuse that's my situation exactly.

I will enjoy being able to slow it down and slot a steel bar occasionally, but that's about as far as I'd go with steel. For me, the 727 represents quite a weight increase from "mini mills" and should handle my "hard metal" projects pretty well. If I really needed a "real" mill I'd buy one of these Craigslist Bridgeports with all the feeds and stuff for $5k.

I mean, milling for me right now means using the miserable milling attachment on my craptastic HF lathe, I did it one time and now I'm shopping mills. . .

However, I do understand and agree with the idea that a "deal" should not preclude buying the right machine.

The fact is, I'd probably be pretty happy with the home-converted 727m, I think, but some things you point out really get me thinking:

My needs/limitations are:

-I need to be able to move it myself, but PM 727 is 475 lbs. and PM30MV is 530 lbs, not a huge difference. Both will need a crane or disassembly for me to move.
-Don't wish to afford the space for knee mill. 30mv is about 7 inches wider, I could afford that.
-Want to work aluminum, and plus bascially everyone says get the variable speed.

So if it were apples to apples, the comparison would be:

PM727V (the upcoming variable speed model) at 1799 vs the PM30MV at 1899. Geez, 100 bucks is nothing here- obviously get the bigger mill!

And also, if you look at the ad copy, they state:
  • More Information below under the DESCRIPTION Tab below – It is NOT just the same old model with just a belt drive upgrade – Be sure to compare carefully
Well, here's the thing- I might be wrong, but from the pics I've seen and from emails from PM the new PM727V IS just the same mill as the M version, but with variable speed drive. I don't even think it gets belt conversion at all! (The pic shows the gearbox controls are still there. . .)

So maybe running a gearbox really really fast isn't a good idea, and it's noisy! I love quiet machines, and in my expereince, they get used and enjoyed more.

So now let me let the other shoe drop.


The original deal was that I called looking for the PM727M, and also inquired if any "discount" machines are available, and indeed, they had one 727M that was a return, and was partially disassembled. PM offered the mill as is, for a substantial discount.

It was what I wanted, and although the new PM727V was to come out this very week, it was over $600 more than my "discount" mill would be.

At that price, it was attractive to buy it, put it back together, and use the savings to put on better motor and controller than what the factory version offered. That was my plan. No warranty, though.

However, I'm starting to wonder if that deal will go through or if they've thought better of it.

Futher, if my suspicion is correct and the PM727V actually retains the gearbox and runs it fast, then maybe an even-faster conversion is unwise, and will surely make the kind of noise I hate. . .

So, if the cheap mill falls through or if I decide against it, then at full price, it's pretty obvious you go with the larger, belt driven mill.

More money, yes, but better, quieter, mill, with warranty, less assembly required= shorter route to making chips!



You Sir, may have just saved me from a grievous error. If the cheap mill is off the table, or even if it isn't, I'll probably be happier withthe larger mill.


Yes, more money- but when I buy, the pain of letting the cash go is temporary and quickly forgotten. The pain of spending all your scrill and not getting what you want is long lived, and will confront you every time you turn the machine on or even look at it, ask me how I know this. . .

Belt drive is a biggie

Already ran 240v for my Unisaw

Damn, I was really looking at using my savings to tool up, but this MKSJ character has me going back to the drawing board. . . off to really look close at PM30MV

Dude, if you're a PM shill you're a great one. . . heh heh!
 
Thanks for the clarification. If it's PM/QMT, no worries. They are outstanding for customer service.

I have two machines and lots of tooling I bought from them. I can praise their service and will buy from them again if the need arises.
 
I vote variable speed, if you ever want to power tap you want as slow as possible. Even using a fly cutter on aluminum you wouldn't run real fast . Tiny drills and endmills yes . Just my thoughts.

Variable is clearly the way to go. Full-on feature creep ensues.

Heck, I'm talking about a PM30MV now, but disappointingly, top speed is only 2200 rpm. . . Maybe some custom pulleys would fix that. . .
 
Thanks for the clarification. If it's PM/QMT, no worries. They are outstanding for customer service.

I have two machines and lots of tooling I bought from them. I can praise their service and will buy from them again if the need arises.

Well, their slow response may have allowed me to be talked into a larger mill- score for them, I guess!
 
I can well understand the issue of not having room for a bigger mill, but not the issue of having to lift it. An engine hoist can be rented, or borrowed from a friend or neighbor. A motorcycle lifting table would work as well. There are many other methods of lifting it. Hell, I could crib one up with lumber, 1 1/2" at a time if I had to. Once it is in place, it is in place. If moving it around is an issue, then mount it on casters from the beginning, but you are done with lifting it. I have a 13x40 lathe, a knee mill, and a 6x18 surface grinder, and do not even own a pickup or trailer or a tow hitch. I have friends who help me, and I help them as well... We recently moved Ulma Doctor's large treasure trove of machines, and the easiest machine to move was a ~4000-5000 pound CNC mill. Piece of cake... Lots of people move heavy machinery into basements having steep stairs with turns in them, and get them back out again when it is time to move, without any special purpose equipment. Do not be afraid of moving or lifting a machine, only with understanding and respecting the possible dangers and then mitigating them.
 
Lots of good information here. The short answer is as stated above. Small cutters in aluminum = higher spindle rpm the better. If you occasionally work in steel, simply slow your rpm/feedrate and depth of cut. I had a early PM25 that I converted to belt drive (it was already variable speed), and it could cut anything within it's size envelope, including titanium and SS. BUT...as said above, you need to adjust your settings for any given cutter/material/setup. These machines will talk to you if you listen. They will tell you if they are not happy with your current selections. Sometimes quite loudly! :D

IMO geared head machines are for slow(er), heavier cuts in steel. And for guys who want to use it as a overpriced drill press. But that's just an opinion, YMMV.
 
The nice thing about variable speed is you can dial the speed to suit the material and cutting parameters. With aluminum, you also need some way to evacuate the chips and provide some form of coolant, or just some air and a can of WD40. There is a learning curve with different materials, so when using aluminum you want to do climb cutting to get the best finish and not regrind the chips.

The top speed of 2200-2400 RPM is plenty, you only need higher speeds for smaller cutters at high feed rates, more CNC territory or very small cutters. More Hp = bigger end mills, faster feeds and quicker material removal. My gearhead mill went to 3000 RPM, never used it past around 2400 RPM. If I needed a lot of material removal I put in a 1/2" or 3/4" roughing end mill and the chips would fly, which will not be a problem with a 2Hp motor. At the end of the day having double the Hp will go a long way and make the mill much more usable over a wider speed range. As far as I am aware all these gear head mills, but the two speed VFD should have less gears whirling around. As other have mentioned, weight is usually a concern with your first mill, and then you realize that weight is your friend (rigidity) when it comes to mills and lathes. A 500lB machine should be very manageable, a good starting point and even if you just drill some holes with it and occasionally mill a part, a whole lot of fun.

Well looked at the PM-30MV, the picture of the mill shows it as a belt drive and the RPM range of Low 50-1500 and High 1400-3000. So it does not match up with what is in the description. Definitely worth some questions when you connect with them. Otherwise the way to go over the vs. the PM927.
http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-30mv/
 
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I can well understand the issue of not having room for a bigger mill, but not the issue of having to lift it. An engine hoist can be rented, or borrowed from a friend or neighbor. A motorcycle lifting table would work as well. There are many other methods of lifting it. Hell, I could crib one up with lumber, 1 1/2" at a time if I had to. Once it is in place, it is in place. If moving it around is an issue, then mount it on casters from the beginning, but you are done with lifting it. I have a 13x40 lathe, a knee mill, and a 6x18 surface grinder, and do not even own a pickup or trailer or a tow hitch. I have friends who help me, and I help them as well... We recently moved Ulma Doctor's large treasure trove of machines, and the easiest machine to move was a ~4000-5000 pound CNC mill. Piece of cake... Lots of people move heavy machinery into basements having steep stairs with turns in them, and get them back out again when it is time to move, without any special purpose equipment. Do not be afraid of moving or lifting a machine, only with understanding and respecting the possible dangers and then mitigating them.

Sure, all true, and I've done similar stuff, such as getting my Unisaw out of the truck bed alone, done with ramps and cribbing and cleats that prevented runaway sliding.

And If I did get a PM30MV, I'm not sure how much bigger/heavier a bench type mill could get!

I just don't need or want bridgeport weight, and for me, I don't like to put myself in any situation I can't handle by myself. I do sort of foresee needing to buy the crane, or rent or borrow one. My main issue is I don't want to store it just to use it one time.

I have considered putting an I beam with hoist in there to handle things like this.

The real answer, Bob, is I've got to talk my wife into letting us move from the burbs, get my 1000 sq. ft. shop built, then I WILL fill it up with ridiculous, heavy old iron! I just need to move to where I will die first so my widow has to deal with it!
 
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