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B&S #2 Surface Grinder

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Ray C

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#1
Hi Folks...

I've been using this B&S #2 grinder for a couple years. -One of my favorite pieces of equipment. Picked it up locally for $500 and it had 2 prior owners and I understand the last owner used it in his shop making OEM Harley Davidson parts for 30+ years. It was recently rebuilt and the ways scraped before it was retired in the 90's then, sat in a garage for 15 years. It runs great. Anyhow, the serial number is 4598 and am wondering if anyone has an idea of it's birthdate. I'm not one of those guys that gets sentimental about old iron. I just prefer to utilize it -new or old but, I'm just curious about how hold it is. I got a few ideas from some folks who think it was 1920's or 30's.

Appreciate any ideas. This picture is pretty old from when I was moving it into the garage. It now has a prominent place in the shop with it's own dust collector and I replaced (but kept) the power switch with a VFD.

Thanks....

Ray


P1020401.JPG

P1020401.JPG
 
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#2
Your surface grinder does not look that old or it's in very good shape. I found reference to a No. 2 on another site as a 1929 with s/n 9425, which is tellin me that yours is older than that.

Can you provide pictures of the motor drive setup, as well as more pictures of your grinder.

Borwn & Sharpe was making the No. 2 & no. 5 all the way into the 1950's before they changed their serial number system for grinders and other machines to a xxx-xxx-xxxx numbering system. The shape/design of the surface grinders changed about this time, too. My B & S surface grinder which is a 6 x 12 machine has s/n 523-612-3679.

BTW- I have a friend who has a serial number book that may go back that far. I'll send him a email and see what he can tell me.
 
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Ray C

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#4
4gsr,

Thank you very much for responding. As requested, here are more photos. FWIW, this thing is all original as far as I can tell with the exception of a few minor nuts & bolts. I have the original wheel cover and power switch but, I use a lot of 8" wheels (thus the make-shift safety cover) and use the VFD to keep the RPMs (low) where I want them. The history of it was fairly well known at the time I purchased it. It originated and was used in shops starting in New Oxford, PA then to Frederick, MD then to York, PA. The photo shows the serial number stamping (probably not visible in the image) but, it's very clearly 4598. The guy I bought it from used it in the shop from where it was retired. He was fond of it and the owner gave it to him when the shop closed. He lived near York, PA where it sat in his garage for about 15 years. It had been rebuilt and re-scraped a few years prior to it being decommissioned.

The beast is ungodly heavy for it's appearance. The forklift scale said 1250 lbs. The main masts are solid CI, the floorplate is 2" thick and the base sides are about 9/16" thick. -That's a lot of cast iron!

It runs fine, is tight as a drum and operates very smoothly. I don't grind too much but when I do, that piece of equipment really feels good in the hands. It took some doing but I flattened a drops piece of 3 x 12 x 1" alloy steel with a couple wheels, finishing with a 100 SC and much to my surprise, the class-A granite slab and TDI said it was within 0.0001 criss-cross from corner to corner. At that point, I said "Hmmm, I guess I'll keep you".

Again, thank you for taking the time to respond. I'll follow-up on your leads and if I learn more, will post back here.

Keep in-touch.

Ray

G1.JPG G2.JPG G3.JPG G4.JPG G5.JPG G6.JPG
 
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#5
Ray,

It's interested your grinder has a Pope motorized spindle equipped. That was non-existance back then. The motorized spindle didnot come around until later in life. One of the previous owners must have upgraded when they reconditioned the SG.
 

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#6
I purchased a B&S No 2 (SN-FM4034 Style-P32) similar to RayC's a few weeks back... complete with Pope motorized spindle (1 hp - 3 ph) and B&S permanent magnet 6x12 chuck. Shop has been cleaned to make room for it now... but waiting on the weather to get better before snatching it with a Penske lift gate truck. I've got a few VFD's in use already so definitely going that route with this motor...

Cheers!
Jeff P
 
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Ray C

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#7
Cool! I really like that grinder a lot and hope yours treats you well.

Ray


I purchased a B&S No 2 (SN-FM4034 Style-P32) similar to RayC's a few weeks back... complete with Pope motorized spindle (1 hp - 3 ph) and B&S permanent magnet 6x12 chuck. Shop has been cleaned to make room for it now... but waiting on the weather to get better before snatching it with a Penske lift gate truck. I've got a few VFD's in use already so definitely going that route with this motor...

Cheers!
Jeff P
 

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#8
Hi All,
Glad to report that we got the break in the weather that we had been watching for... and got the B&S No 2 home and rolled into the garage yesterday with the aid of a lift-gate truck from Penske rentals, 5 pieces of 1" iron pipe and my strong armed son! It is a bit dirty from ~5 yrs accumulation of shop dust so will need a good cleaning and some paint as well as a new table feed screw + nut + a few Gits oilers. Should be a fun rebuild... which I will start soon upon finishing the Smith&Mills 12" shaper rebuild. I had reported the serial number incorrectly in my earlier post. Mine has SN 2125 stamped in the casting above the wheel. So thinking it's pretty old!! It appears to have been reground and rebuilt some time in the more recent past when the Pope motorized spindle was retrofitted...

Cheers!
Jeff P
 

Ray C

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#9
Holy smokes, I thought mine was old w/SN 4598. There might be dinosaur bones in yours.

Again, I hope all goes well with yours. It's a great machine. -And hey, show us some pictures...


Ray



Hi All,
Glad to report that we got the break in the weather that we had been watching for... and got the B&S No 2 home and rolled into the garage yesterday with the aid of a lift-gate truck from Penske rentals, 5 pieces of 1" iron pipe and my strong armed son! It is a bit dirty from ~5 yrs accumulation of shop dust so will need a good cleaning and some paint as well as a new table feed screw + nut + a few Gits oilers. Should be a fun rebuild... which I will start soon upon finishing the Smith&Mills 12" shaper rebuild. I had reported the serial number incorrectly in my earlier post. Mine has SN 2125 stamped in the casting above the wheel. So thinking it's pretty old!! It appears to have been reground and rebuilt some time in the more recent past when the Pope motorized spindle was retrofitted...

Cheers!
Jeff P
 

idjeffp

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#10
-And hey, show us some pictures...

Glad to see this folder and thread restored. Here are some pictures of the ol' gal I took last weekend after a partial cleanup... with the table still sitting on wood blocks until I get the ways cleaned up.


Let's see if this link will work...
<iframe src="https://skydrive.live.com/embed?cid=D5ED89B90D4BCD6E&resid=D5ED89B90D4BCD6E%21724&authkey=APHLs6azYNpBVY0" width="240" height="320" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>


Jeff P
 

idjeffp

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#11
...and a few more pictures:

Base cabinet:
<iframe src="https://skydrive.live.com/embed?cid=D5ED89B90D4BCD6E&resid=D5ED89B90D4BCD6E%21730&authkey=AAQfCi3Vyx72eR8" width="240" height="320" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>


P32 Pope motorized spindle (1hp 3-ph GE Induction 3475 rpm motor):
<iframe src="https://skydrive.live.com/embed?cid=D5ED89B90D4BCD6E&resid=D5ED89B90D4BCD6E%21720&authkey=AMD4X_qQWwlpLBQ" width="320" height="240" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>


Brown & Sharpe 510 permanent magnet chuck:
<iframe src="https://skydrive.live.com/embed?cid=D5ED89B90D4BCD6E&resid=D5ED89B90D4BCD6E%21731&authkey=AF6kg73VqAfb6ow" width="320" height="240" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>


A friend also has this unit available that I'm thinking about acquiring.. Thinking this is some sort of wheel truing/radiusing setup? Anyone have more info? Are there better units available now?
<iframe src="https://skydrive.live.com/embed?cid=D5ED89B90D4BCD6E&resid=D5ED89B90D4BCD6E%21733&authkey=AASIJHIwCGXX8Oo" width="320" height="240" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>

Thanks again,
Jeff P
 

mitsue

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#12
..
A friend also has this unit available that I'm thinking about acquiring.. Thinking this is some sort of wheel truing/radiusing setup? Anyone have more info? Are there better units available now?
<iframe src="https://skydrive.live.com/embed?cid=D5ED89B90D4BCD6E&resid=D5ED89B90D4BCD6E%21733&authkey=AASIJHIwCGXX8Oo" width="320" height="240" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>

Thanks again,
Jeff P
I believe you are correct it is a wheel truing/radius setup. I'm new to grinding and am not familiar with the different attachments for them. You may be able to bevel/angle the edge of the wheel to grind dovetails. Lots of guys would love to have it if you don't snatch it up.:))
Darcy
 

Ray C

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#13
Have you done any grinding with this yet and are the ways in good condition? Only reason I bring it up, is that you might want to hold-off on buying additional attachments until you know how much work it may (or may not) need. Make a decision if you're willing to do big-time restoration before you throw big $ into accessories.

In any event, I can't tell you how much I appreciate mine (which is identical to yours). It just works! -And it adds a whole new realm to precision work and adds a nice touch to many things. Upon purchasing it, I was a bit apprehensive about it's need but, the unit was in perfect condition and at a great price (500 bucks). -Very happy to have it now. It took a couple weeks of practice for me to do work predictably but, it was time well spent.

BTW: I added a VFD to my setup which is really helpful to slowly bring a new wheel up to speed. An unbalanced wheel can scare the crap out you and it's dangerous. And finally, do your lungs and shop equipment a big favor and get a dust collector. The large 1HP version from harbor freight works great... And of course, I wear both goggles and a face safety screen while using it as I have no desire to lose my vision or life prematurely.

Ray
 
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#14
...and a few more pictures:

A friend also has this unit available that I'm thinking about acquiring.. Thinking this is some sort of wheel truing/radiusing setup? Anyone have more info? Are there better units available now?
<iframe src="https://skydrive.live.com/embed?cid=D5ED89B90D4BCD6E&resid=D5ED89B90D4BCD6E%21733&authkey=AASIJHIwCGXX8Oo" width="320" height="240" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>

Thanks again,
Jeff P
You better snatch up that wheel dresser. That one allows you to get a better look at what you are doing compared to the many others that are out there. I rather have it over the Hague one I have now.
 
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#15
Ray,

It's interested your grinder has a Pope motorized spindle equipped. That was non-existance back then. The motorized spindle didnot come around until later in life. One of the previous owners must have upgraded when they reconditioned the SG.
I just obtained a old 1941 Brown & Sharpe catalog that lists the machinery they built back then.

On a Number 2 and 2B surface grinder, they indicated the motorized spindle (Pope type) was optional at additional cost.

My statement above is definitely incorrect.

My apology if I miss-guided anyone out there.
 

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#16
You better snatch up that wheel dresser. That one allows you to get a better look at what you are doing compared to the many others that are out there. I rather have it over the Hague one I have now.
Going to see about snagging this wheel dresser shortly...

I believe the ways on my No 2 were all reground. The seller said it was all retrued and the ways look to be in very nice shape. The table was removed and some of the covers were removed for a paint job that never took place after 5 years. So I've got to finish the cleaning yet of the accumulated dust & dirt. I believe it just needs for me to make another crossslide screw/nut pair.. On reassy/cleanup last week, I also discovered the mount was just loose so not sure yet just how bad it is. Overall the machine is in pretty nice shape. I'm into it at the right price as well so have some room for a VFD... and the seller of that wheel dresser will price it right as well... so it'll probably be headed home with me on my next trip over. Just not sure about what size SG it was designed for? Does it show in that 1941 B&S catalog?

Also I did some searching and it appears that Pope is still in business so I was going to talk to someone over there about this P32 motorized spindle. Mine has no lube ports as RayC's shows. So wanting to get that understood before power is applied. It's definitely getting a VFD on it...

Thanks for all the input!
Jeff P
 

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#17
Not so fast in thinking you were wrong 4gsr.
Was just following this thread and enjoying the photos and info of your grinder Ray, when something caught my eye. First I know absolutly nothing about B&S grinders, I just want to play too so don't beat me up. I noticed that your grinder must have been dated prior to 1920 and the tag on idjeffp's Pope drive says POPE established 1920.
 

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#18
Going to see about snagging this wheel dresser shortly...
Done deal now - on the B&S wheel dresser :) I'll have to get over there sometime to pick it up.

Cheers!
JP
 
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#19
Here's a couple of scans from the 1941 Brown & Sharpe catalog I have on the No. 2 surface grinder.

Brown & Sharpe 2 Grinder_0001.jpg Brown & Sharpe 2 Grinder_0002.jpg Brown & Sharpe 2 Grinder_0003.jpg
 

idjeffp

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#20
Here's a couple of scans from the 1941 Brown & Sharpe catalog I have on the No. 2 surface grinder.
Very Cool Ken! Thanks for posting those scans...

JP
 

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#21
Anyone have a .pdf ... or know if there is a scanned copy of the B&S No 2/2B Operator's manual online somewhere? I was surprised to note that this unit has 6.5" x 20" of travel... so going to see if I can locate an original or import 6 " x 18" permanent mag chuck for mine. The B&S 510 chuck works fine for now though... I'm putting priority on getting a VFD first so I can at least use it.

Also wondering what the spindle adapter wrenches look like? Can someone post a picture?

Happy Easter!
Jeff Pfeifer
 
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Ray C

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#22
BTW Guys,

In case you're interested, the arbor taper on my B&S #2 is 7.125[SUP]o[/SUP] from centerline (or 14.25 side-to-side). The center nut is 1/2" LH thread.

BTW: The eBay market is flooded with hub adapters whose locking plates are RH thread. -Don't buy one if you value your life. The locking plate will unscrew in a heartbeat. I bought one on eBay and the ad said it was for B&S grinders. -No soap.

Also, I'm in the process of making a balancing hub adapter modeled after commercial units on the market costing upward of 400 bucks. When I finish building mine, I'll post the CAD drawings.


Ray
 

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#23
BTW Guys,

In case you're interested, the arbor taper on my B&S #2 is 7.125[SUP]o[/SUP] from centerline (or 14.25 side-to-side). The center nut is 1/2" LH thread.

BTW: The eBay market is flooded with hub adapters whose locking plates are RH thread. -Don't buy one if you value your life. The locking plate will unscrew in a heartbeat. I bought one on eBay and the ad said it was for B&S grinders. -No soap.

Also, I'm in the process of making a balancing hub adapter modeled after commercial units on the market costing upward of 400 bucks. When I finish building mine, I'll post the CAD drawings.


Ray
Thanks Ray for the taper info... I've been curious as to what taper my model P32 Pope motorized spindle has on it. Currently it has a 7" x 1/2" wheel fitted up on it so I need to machine some spanner wrenches to get the wheel/adapter off, so that I can take some taper measurements. I'm not sure if the Pope spindle is different than the original B&S or is a just standard 3.000" TPF (TPF=taper per foot? inverse-tan(3"/12")*180/pi = 14.036 deg ) as shown in this page from the William SOPKO catalog. http://wmsopko.com/sopko_04_to_30.htm

My current adapter looks more like the smaller #00207 adapter shown but has flat opposing keyways on the OD for holding. Sopko sells the pin face spanner combo wrenches as well as hex nuts to convert from the slotted center nuts. http://wmsopko.com/sopko_81_90_108.htm

I'll post more info once I get the wheel off...

Cheers!
Jeff Pfeifer
 

Ray C

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#24
Jeff,

In all honesty, I've been confused and mislead by TPF specifications. Seems I'm missing something in terms of how it's expressed and if it represents one side from the centerline or the angle between the two sides of the taper. When I need to measure something, I always just try to boil it down to Rise over Run and take the arctan. Using a couple different basic techniques with a DI, I measured the rise over 1/2" and 1" spans at least a dozen times and I consistently came up with 0.0625 and 0.125 respectively (give or take a thou between all the measurements due to the needle sticking on the surface). This of course, is only measuring one side (from centerline to one of the sides). Anyhow, arctan (.125) is 7.125 degrees and thus 14.25 between the two sides... -and that's how I came up with that number. In all reality, the difference between 14.25 and 14.036 is 0.214 degrees... On manual equipment, it's pretty hard to get it that close.

The Sopko catalog certainly seems like a good reference though and I'd be willing to eat crow and accept that my measurements were inaccurate. Man, for my own piece of mind, I wish I could get to the bottom of that measurement.

Anyhow, I searched eBay and other places looking for a suitable reamer. -No luck. Whenever I cut an internal taper, I try (when possible) to follow-up with a reamer. If you come across one, please let me know (if you don't mind).

Thanks

Ray




Thanks Ray for the taper info... I've been curious as to what taper my model P32 Pope motorized spindle has on it. Currently it has a 7" x 1/2" wheel fitted up on it so I need to machine some spanner wrenches to get the wheel/adapter off, so that I can take some taper measurements. I'm not sure if the Pope spindle is different than the original B&S or is a just standard 3.000" TPF (TPF=taper per foot? inverse-tan(3"/12")*180/pi = 14.036 deg ) as shown in this page from the William SOPKO catalog. http://wmsopko.com/sopko_04_to_30.htm

My current adapter looks more like the smaller #00207 adapter shown but has flat opposing keyways on the OD for holding. Sopko sells the pin face spanner combo wrenches as well as hex nuts to convert from the slotted center nuts. http://wmsopko.com/sopko_81_90_108.htm

I'll post more info once I get the wheel off...

Cheers!
Jeff Pfeifer
 

Old Iron

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#25
I called wmsopko Last week about a adapter for my Jones & Shipmen, And after getting all the measurements for them they came up with $169.00 and some change for a 1/4 to 1/2. And I was going to get the spanner but I was afraid to ask the price so I just made one.

The adapter on mine takes 1/4, 1/2 & 3/4 wheels so I'll just stick with that. Ray not hijacking your thread but a couple pict of the spanner I made today. I guess the man I got it from was using a punch to get it off. had to fix a few of the wholes and fill 3 other ones. Still got to make one far the nut.

Paul

Edit the spanner isn't finished yet still needs some ore work.

Wheel Adapter.JPG Pins In.JPG Trail Fit.JPG Small Nut.JPG
 

Ray C

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#26
Not a hijack at all -it's an open thread, many months old.

Nice job on the wrench. Did you just drive a couple pins or did you affix them somehow? Whatever you do, don't use all the leverage you gave yourself with that long handle.

Some day, I would like to take my B&S spindle apart but, whoever put the locking ring nuts on there had hairy knuckles and a hunch back. -Can't get e'm off for love or money and gave up since it's not broken. -Dreading the day I have to crack that loose.


Ray

I called wmsopko Last week about a adapter for my Jones & Shipmen, And after getting all the measurements for them they came up with $169.00 and some change for a 1/4 to 1/2. And I was going to get the spanner but I was afraid to ask the price so I just made one.

The adapter on mine takes 1/4, 1/2 & 3/4 wheels so I'll just stick with that. Ray not hijacking your thread but a couple pict of the spanner I made today. I guess the man I got it from was using a punch to get it off. had to fix a few of the wholes and fill 3 other ones. Still got to make one far the nut.

Paul

Edit the spanner isn't finished yet still needs some ore work.
 

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#27
I called wmsopko Last week about a adapter for my Jones & Shipmen, And after getting all the measurements for them they came up with $169.00 and some change for a 1/4 to 1/2. And I was going to get the spanner but I was afraid to ask the price so I just made one.

The adapter on mine takes 1/4, 1/2 & 3/4 wheels so I'll just stick with that. Ray not hijacking your thread but a couple pict of the spanner I made today. I guess the man I got it from was using a punch to get it off. Had to fix a few of the holes and fill 3 other ones. Still got to make one for the nut.

Paul

Edit the spanner isn't finished yet still needs some more work.
Hi Paul,
I was home sick earlier in the week so I called Sopko and spoke with Bill there. I told him a bit about the B&S No 2 with Pope motorized spindle that I recently brought home - but it didn't come with any wrenches. He said the wrench was $39 and I'd also need a 00116 puller for $13.50 to jack the adapter off the taper once the nut is removed. He pointed me to the 00200-1 adapter on pg. 4 as it's only $49.50 and more of a universal model they sell and lower cost than their Pope adapters. He also said to ask for a paper catalog with my order and they'd throw one in the box. I'd like one of their reversible adapters for use on a radiused wheel I need for a project... still a ways out though.

Maybe I can get a start on the wrenches & puller this weekend... feeling a bit better this morning in any case.

Stay in health my friends!
Jeff Pfeifer
 

Old Iron

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#28
Jeff glad your on the mend, I've got a wheel adapter coming from England total cost with shipping about 68.00 lots cheaper than theres.

I just figured I'd make the wrench's for mine prolly not cheaper but something else to do.

Ray I drove in the pins and welded them in place, Not planning to use that much leverage on it just wanted a good hold in it.

Paul
 

Ray C

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#29
BrownSharpeTaperMeasurement.JPG Guys,

I'm still scratching my head about the B&S taper. I've read in a number of places, including the Sopko catalog, where it's referred to as a 3 in 12 taper which comes out to 14.036[SUP]o[/SUP]. I re-measured mine last night and without doubt, comes out to 14.25[SUP]o[/SUP] dead on the money. I also have a simple hub that fits perfectly (too bad it has right hand threads though) and using a granite slab, height gauge and TDI, the internal taper measured at 14.25 dead-on.

Anyhow, I'm about to finish-off all the fixtures for my hub-making setup and am wondering if anyone really knows the history of this B&S taper. FWIW, my spindle appears to be a genuine upgrade/conversion and all the parts look authentic and factory made.

Anyhow, if you guys have the time, would you mind measuring yours? Here's the setup I used. I measured five times on both sides of the spindle to account for possible uneven in/out (feed) travel of the bed. All ten measurements came out to 0.0625" taper per 0.5000" travel. The variance of the individual readings were virtually nil. This comes out to 7.125[SUP]o[/SUP] per side (or 14.25 side-to-side).

Ray

PS: Something seems to have changed again in the web software and I can no longer position inline pictures with any predictability. Sorry for posting the pic in the wrong spot -it's not my chosing...

BrownSharpeTaperMeasurement.JPG
 
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#30
Ray,

It's your dial indicators there, there not Brown And Sharpe!!!:panic:

I'm just kidding. If I get a chance, I'll set up and check the taper on my B & S 612 grinder and see what it measures.

Ken

edit: I do have one B & S 1" travel indicator I could use....
 
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