Beauty in The Beast: Webb 5BVK Barn Find/Conversion

[JimDawson]

Perfect. The wiring is really simple, but is going to require external 24VDC and +/- 15VDC power supplies. I'll get those spec'd out. You may be able to use the existing power supplies in the upper box. We'll need to see how those are lashed up.

I need to spend a bit more time with the documentation to fully understand everything.

 

[extropic]

@Charlieman22

Good work on the runout data.
I will evaluate it and convert it into a graphical representation that will be much easier (than the raw numbers) for me, and I hope others, to make sense of. Will post back here tomorrow.

Regarding the old gentleman's comments on "bad" bearings: Exactly !!!
Balls can get out of round. Races get dents in them. As the balls precess, the differing diameters and dents in races result in the center of rotation moving around. I didn't see shocking evidence of that sort of bearing damage in your earlier videos. However, something has caused the taper to runout. Just trying to understand the cause.

Side note: I have witnessed measurements on VERY high precision ball bearings and have seen (with the help of metrology laboratory grade equipment) the center of rotation nutate in a sort of figure eight. I don't remember the magnitude (many years ago) but we measured it at the time. Probably under 20 millionths. I WISH I had such bearings. There is no mechanical perfection. Only "good enough".

 

[extropic]

@Charlieman22

If looking down on the spindle from the top, which direction did you rotate the spindle to get from A to B, B to C, etc. CW or CCW?

I want my graphic to be as representative as possible.

 

[Papa Charlie]

Well - I am glad to see I am not the only one smitten by the Monarch.
Hooked by the Art Deco look - but blown away by how nice it is to use.
Extremely solid and precise - smooth.
Shaky picture on Ebay - no description - no response to questions - less than $3K.
On a whim - hit buy now.
Turns out to run nicely - and has a Sabina digital drive.
The seller was 80 - had used it for 30 years in garage as hobbyist - and just wasn't very good at posting pictures.
I helped him unload all his machinery - and he gave me a really nice deal.

Dan - I have been watching his series. He does a super nice job on finish and cleaning and bringing back to original.
Charlie - not sure on the taper on the 10EE (my taper issue is on the mill).
10EE will get is's own thread when I get there.
Right now - using it to help get my scooter back on the road - and get a feel for it's operational condition.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I was wondering what the diameter of the spindle bore is? Curious if I could use it for chambering rifle barrels. I need at least an 1.5" bore.

 

[Charlieman22]

Perfect. The wiring is really simple, but is going to require external 24VDC and +/- 15VDC power supplies. I'll get those spec'd out. You may be able to use the existing power supplies in the upper box. We'll need to see how those are lashed up.

I need to spend a bit more time with the documentation to fully understand everything.

Thanks for all Jim. That's an interesting prospect.
Sure enough - there are some power supplies on the various boards.
At least one of them looks custom made for our use?
The three TDK ones are from the Faunac power supply box.
The one marked 25V is on the side of the box.
The small red wrapped on - if that is even a power supply - is from the motherboard for the screen.

If looking down on the spindle from the top, which direction did you rotate the spindle to get from A to B, B to C, etc. CW or CCW?

From Birdseye view above - looking straight down - the spindle was rotated counter clockwise.
A was actually facing the back, and E was facing my chest.
Thanks for taking the time and providing the direction on this.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I was wondering what the diameter of the spindle bore is? Curious if I could use it for chambering rifle barrels. I need at least an 1.5" bore.

No trouble at all. The boar is 1.4" - taken at the tail end - so just shy of what you had hoped for.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
They sure are nice machines to work with.

 

[Charlieman22]

Jim - since you are thinking this through - best if you have the full picture.
Few things to consider - may or may not affect thinking.
1. My Monarch is 460V- not a typo. How it came. Spoke with Sabina - they made the drive. They had all the documentation no the upgrade. Motor was rewound to be 500VDC (I think that's right). Prior owner powered (for 30 years) with RPC and an up converter. I was given his power supply - and run it that way now. No reason to think we need to go away from the VFD - but I now have an RPC in my garage - just FYI.
2. The power draw bar is configured with 2 115V solenoids. They have failed - I will replace. I could use lower voltage ones - or buy original. When either solenoid is open, air is allowed to push the forward or reverse on the drawbar actuator, it spins, and is fed air simultaneously which compresses it. Simultaneously the power spindle lock can be activated. Also 115. Current inclination is to keep this all 115 and repurpose the momentary buttons the were on the machine.
3. I am also considering repurposing the upper box as my main box - and removing the main box. This would allow the machine to move back towards the wall by More than a foot.

 

[extropic]

@Charlieman22

I'm wading into the dimensions of the NMTB taper so I create a useful graphic.

On your data table, you note "1/4" Deep", etc. My question is, 1/4" from what? Flat spindle face (lugs removed)? Base of drive lug slots? Please describe.

At the "2 5/8" Deep" location, do you know whether the indicator tip was reading on the taper or on the cylindrical diameter (where the tool holder tail fits).

I think that's all I need to know. Always more complex when we really get into it.

 

[Charlieman22]

On your data table, you note "1/4" Deep", etc. My question is, 1/4" from what? Flat spindle face (lugs removed)? Base of drive lug slots? Please describe.

At the "2 5/8" Deep" location, do you know whether the indicator tip was reading on the taper or on the cylindrical diameter (where the tool holder tail fits).

No trouble.
- The lugs Allen head was gnarled - and I wanted to get you the data - so instead I was super careful with placement of the dial up the center so that I could get the readings with the lugs still on. Two items of note.
1. The readings A and E are directly aligned with the center of the lugs. I placed the indicator just above the indentation for the lugs, inside the spindle. As you are making a precision drawing - the lug indention is actually .25 up in to the spindle. The measuring spot for my first row was actually .35" up in to the spindle just above.
2. If you look at my measures - the one that is most out of whack is is row 1, E, at .000295". My best guess is that the spindle has some local deformation right at that point caused by either overtightening of the lug, or other issues related to the lug being driven up into the spindle off a work piece crash. Just a guess.
- As for the location of the 2 5/8, I believe that it was at the top of the taper. I attempted a photograph but view was obscured by the dial and body. To ensure I was getting accurate reads - I rotated that twice - with matching results.

 

[JimDawson]

I think it is best to keep the lathe and mill hardware separate. I see no need for 3 phase power at the mill.

We want to keep in mind that the ultimate goal is to have both full CNC and manual control on the mill. So anything we do now needs to be compatible with full CNC later. So far this is the case.

Current needs:

• Get the axis motors under better manual control
• Get the power drawbar working
• Reduce the footprint of the control enclosure

We have to be a little careful in the way we control the axis motors, need to put some limits on the maximum speed. This means limiting the range of the command voltage input to about +/- 2 VDC. This might be a bit challenging without computer control. The documentation seems to address this, but I'm still trying to get my head around what the documentation actually says. The documentation is translated from German, and they have some different ways of saying things. At full power the axis motors are capable of driving the table at over 600 IPM. This is way too fast for a human to control. Maximum speed should be limited to no more than 100 IPM, normal cutting is going to be in the sub-50 IPM range, and for the most part in the 5 to 20 IPM range given the available spindle speed.

I thought about it for a bit and see no advantage in replacing the servo drives, the original drives will work fine and the foot print of more modern drives is not substantially smaller than the original drives. The power supplies in the upper box are pretty much useless, so replacing those will be needed. We only need to modify the rectifier section on the servo drive frame to accept a single phase input, and provide a proper transformer to feed it.

115VAC solenoid valves are fine. No problem with using 115VAC for the control power on the whole machine. There is already a transformer in the control enclosure for the 115VAC supply.

I'm not sure if the control enclosure size can be reduced. There is just a certain amount of stuff that needs to go in there and you really don't want it too crowded. It is really a PITA to have to wire things up with out enough panel real estate. One option is to use two separate enclosures and put them on either side of the machine. Heavy power handling components in one and control in the other. This complicates the wiring a bit, but I have done it. Rotating the machine slightly might allow you to push it further back towards the wall, this is a common way of setting mills.

 

[Papa Charlie]

No trouble at all. The boar is 1.4" - taken at the tail end - so just shy of what you had hoped for.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
They sure are nice machines to work with.

Not at all, it might work. Most of the barrel blanks I work with are 1.25" That would be tight to get it through without damaging the barrel finish but I can work around that. Would have to create a spider that would attach to the back of the spindle to center up the barrel on that end, that might be a bigger challenge. I guess I need to check one out in person to be sure.

Thanks very much for your help.