Beauty in The Beast: Webb 5BVK Barn Find/Conversion

I think it is best to keep the lathe and mill hardware separate. I see no need for 3 phase power at the mill.
Agreed - wanted to make sure you were aware of the set up tho.
I thought about it for a bit and see no advantage in replacing the servo drives, the original drives will work fine and the foot print of more modern drives is not substantially smaller than the original drives. The power supplies in the upper box are pretty much useless, so replacing those will be needed. We only need to modify the rectifier section on the servo drive frame to accept a single phase input, and provide a proper transformer to feed it.
Noted. Ok.
115VAC solenoid valves are fine. No problem with using 115VAC for the control power on the whole machine. There is already a transformer in the control enclosure for the 115VAC supply.
Ok - Will go ahead and pull the trigger on the 115 volt config. Simplifies in some ways. The original switch is a little ratty - but I think I can clean it up. The wires coming out of the back look decidedly un 115V though. Will I be able to utilize this switch and just rewire? Perfect place on side of mill head with indentation I have spotted for it. Could make a custom aluminum block to mount with.IMG_4541.JPG
I'm not sure if the control enclosure size can be reduced. There is just a certain amount of stuff that needs to go in there and you really don't want it too crowded.
Let's assume large box will be utilized.
When I have all the components there, I'm sure I'll have a better appreciation for that space.
Not at all, it might work. Most of the barrel blanks I work with are 1.25" That would be tight to get it through without damaging the barrel finish but I can work around that. Would have to create a spider that would attach to the back of the spindle to center up the barrel on that end, that might be a bigger challenge. I guess I need to check one out in person to be sure.

Thanks very much for your help.

Would like to strip out the components we won't use in long term, and all the old wiring, when we make these changes.
Nice to work in a clean space - no point in having boat anchors filling it up.
Current needs:
  • Get the axis motors under better manual control
  • Get the power drawbar working
  • Reduce the footprint of the control enclosure
Yup - good rundown.
After you have a think - let me know what you feel the config will be - and what I will need to source.
Thanks!
 
Not at all, it might work. Most of the barrel blanks I work with are 1.25" That would be tight to get it through without damaging the barrel finish but I can work around that. Would have to create a spider that would attach to the back of the spindle to center up the barrel on that end, that might be a bigger challenge. I guess I need to check one out in person to be sure.

Thanks very much for your help.
No trouble.
The machine seems to be popular with some other gunsmiths - I've see elsewhere.
Their is a threaded nut on the end - which could be replaced with something like a Delrin bushing or the like - I would think - for centering.
Otherwise, some other kind of spider solution could be screwed on the end I'm sure.
Pic of the end below.
If I get a chance - I will test max size bar that will fit through entire tube to give you better data.IMG_4611.JPG
 
Got the runout data table (Excel) done along with the graphic (.pdf).

It looks like a definite crash scenario to me.

If you want the spindle to be factory spec again, I suggest taking the whole quill assembly to a spindle Guru.
Why? The tapered end of the spindle is bent. That's where the bearings live. The bearing journals (spindle) are certainly distorted.
the bearing housing (quill) areas may well be deformed also. If deformed, bearings will have a significantly shortened life. Have the bearings been replaced since the crash? Replaced with what? If the bearings were replaced, why didn't they regrind the taper? Easier to put it in the parking lot.

If less than factory spec is acceptable . . .
 

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  • Charlieman22 Spindle Runout Graphic.pdf
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  • Charlieman22 TAPER RUNOUT DATA.xlsx
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It looks like a definite crash scenario to me.
Wow. Did you guys look at that PDF Birdseye view?
Amazing break down.
Thanks Ext!
.Screen Shot 2021-09-24 at 9.28.20 PM.png

Monarch specs say 1 13/32 for the 10EE spindle bore, so 1.40625. Or 1.4 for all practical purposes.
http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2103/19729.pdf
Rabler - thanks!
Good find.
( I am also going to take it a a win that I measured as 1.4")
Charlie - I will still slip a tube through it at some point - to see if mine meets the spec.
No telling what we might learn...

If less than factory spec is acceptable . . .
That is of course the question.
Precision is very nice to work with.
Shaves off some of my rough edges on execution.
Allows me to aim more finely to start with.
But in truth - I am not itching to rip down the entire spindle and head.
I want to use the machine.
Though it's my "hobby", it's still central to my other activities.
I also earn a living off inventions - so being able to prototype has meaning.
It earn's its keep here.

The spindle grinder says he will examine conditions of bearings before starting.
I would write the check if he can guarantee I would take at least 50% of the TIR out with a few hours of his time.
If not - it probably doesn't hold the value.

Ext - thanks again for that tutorial.
Fascinating all around.
 
I hear you regarding the precision vs hobby duty. Have I told you lately "It's your world"?

Here's another factor to twist your head around. All the data we have on the runout is taken in a completely benign environment.

One more test procedure to help us understand the fit/condition of the bearings and the preload.
Mount one of your new 3/4" Weldon holders in the taper w/ tight drawbar. Extend the quill far enough to attach your magnetic base (or other DTI holder) to the quill OD. Lower the knee so you can mount a foot or so of 3/4" diameter bar into the Weldon holder. Position the DTI to measure any deflection between the OD of the tool holder flange (better if you can touch the OD of the spindle nose instead) and the quill OD. Apply about 100 pounds of horizontal force to the free end of the 3/4" bar and record the deflection. A large fish scale would be ideal to quantify the force. Relocate the DTI around the quill (6 or 8 places) and repeat the force application perpendicular to the indicator stylus contact point.

I don't know what the practical side loads are on a 1/2" end mill in various cutting scenarios however, I'm sure they are frequently much higher than 100 foot pounds. I would not want to see even .0001" deflection in the test I described. In your case (crash victim), I would particularly be looking for differing deflection at different points of the compass which would suggest, to me, bearing housing(s) (quill) may not be cylindrical anymore.

Have I worn out my welcome yet?
 
Very subtle. The way you said "Shut up. I'm going to have the taper ground". :grin:

PS: I edited the procedure a little after you read it.
 
@Charlieman22
I give you credit for jumping in and tackling several significant projects simultaneously while still trying to keep reasonable goals in sight.
 
The existing switches will work fine for the power draw bar.

1632592844755.png

Removing stuff from panel:
1) Remove
2) Stays
3) Stays
8) Stays, actually is part of 2. Ice cube relays below 8 can most likely go.
7) As things are removed, might be able to be compacted a bit. Could be replaced with more compact terminals. Not sure what that little transformer does.
4) About 1/2 can most likely be removed. Could be replaced with more compact fuse holders, I normally use 6mm wide fuse holders.
6) Will be replaced by a different transformer
5) Stays
We need to figure out that the small contactor to the right of 5 does, I suspect it feeds 6. If that is the case, it will stay.

I would remove the top box and associated wiring, this will free up a lot of the terminals and we'll be better able to see what is needed. Remove the wires from the terminals, don't just clip them. Save the cables. As components are removed, also remove all of the associated wires.

This whole project is really at a decision point. It is so easy and really less complex to to just add a controller to run the thing, even in manual mode. On my machine when operating manually I use a combination of keyboard jog and hand cranking to accomplish the task. Besides the spindle VFD controls, I only have an E-stop and an Enable button as physical buttons, everything else is done on the computer screen with a mouse click. Eliminates an incredible amount of wiring.

As near as I can tell, to run the servo drive you will only need a +/- 15VDC and a 24VDC power supplies, and change over to single phase power input using a different diode and transformer.


Automation Direct seems to be out of stock on a lot of power supplies....So,


https://www.amazon.com/Bridgold-KBP...32432036&sprefix=50+amp+bridge,aps,213&sr=8-3

https://www.ebay.com/itm/303644573524?hash=item46b2a07f54:g:eCUAAOSwSGxhKxzv
 
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