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Belts... and why nobody changes them. :/

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Dr.Fiero

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#1
O...M....G....
I can see why the belt(s) on my ~1988 lathe still has what appears to be original belts in it, even though they're ratted out.

I've been ripping this thing down for what seem like hours on end. And I STILL don't even have the one belt out!
Got the back gears out without too much trouble.
Still battling with the rear V-pulleys and shaft assy.
Got part of the main shaft apart, but had to try a different area since the frustration level was getting too high.

Time to take a closer look at the parts breakdown. Would have been nice if the "service manual" actually said how to do this!

Yeah, I could go with one of those link belts, but I've heard too many people complain about them being noisy (and I hate noisy!), not to mention I need to change out the oil seals on the main shaft anyhow since I don't seem to be able to keep lube oil in it for any time. And it's super filthy in there, and needs a good cleaning out.

/rant. :D
 

PurpLev

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#2
why do you think nobody changes them (because we do...)

I'm not sure I am getting this post - Are you having trouble removing the belt from your machine?

If so, there is usually a release lever to remove the tension from the belt by moving one of the pulleys up/down making the removal of the belt a quick and easy task - check the parts manual or better yet - the user manual. if not- then forget what I juts said :)

I think the link belts are OK for what they are, they work fairly well, and are adjustable in lengths (customizable) - but they are sure as heck expensive as compared to a regular V belt of the correct size (x2-x4 in price usually).

Chears
 

Dr.Fiero

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#3
I say 'nobody' half jestingly, but...

The main spindle shaft, back gears, and the rear pulleys ALL go right through the middle of the belt.
The ONLY way to change it is to virtually strip the machine (or go with a link, but that does nothing for my leaky oil seals!).
 

cjsamples

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#4
What type of lathe? Maybe someone has a tip or trick for it.

Chris
 

PurpLev

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#5
I say 'nobody' half jestingly, but...

The main spindle shaft, back gears, and the rear pulleys ALL go right through the middle of the belt.
The ONLY way to change it is to virtually strip the machine (or go with a link, but that does nothing for my leaky oil seals!).
ugh... my bad :whistle: - in my mind I see end belts that can be easily pulled off and replaced. I forgot about the flat belts like on some of the S.B. that are housed in the center of the headstock and do require a complete teardown or cut and stitch to replace. so in that reference you can always just cut the belt and re-stitch it (or replace it if it's warn)
 

bedwards

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#6
I'm not sure what kind of belts you have (cogged or V), but I put the link belts on my Sheldon to keep from taking everything apart and never regretted it. I have since disassembled the headstock to replace a thrust bearing but the belts performed just fine for the two or three years I have had it. I will be putting them on my Sheldon mill soon.




Bedwards
 

Dr.Fiero

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#7
They're V-belts (B32 to be exact!). It's on my BusyBee DF1224G.

As I mentioned up top - the link belt is all fine and dandy maybe, but I still need to swap out my aged oil seals.
It was late when I posted last. Been a rough day, and that all just topped it off.

I've gone over the parts breakdown, and I can now see what comes apart from what.
It looks like I need to pull a few more set screws, then I should be able to push the spindle shaft out over the bed.

The rear pulley setup might just be REALLY stuck and that's why I can't get it out.
 

Dr.Fiero

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#8
Aha! Success. Just needed a fresh day, a parts list... and a brass hammer. :D

Started like this:
IMG_2008.JPG

All this and more "fell out" (ha! yeah right). This is only the main spindle:
IMG_2040.JPG

Which left me with:
IMG_2041.JPG IMG_2042.JPG IMG_2043.JPG


So - since this stuff isn't mentioned anywhere else on the web (that I could find after a few days!), hopefully Google will crawl it and find:
Motor to pulley belt: B31
Pulley to spindle belt: B32
Left outer oil seal: 65*85*12mm
Left inner oil seal: 55*75*12mm
Right inner oil seal: 60*80*10mm
Right outer oil seal: 80*100*12mm

I'll update this with the bearing numbers if I remember to look.

The drawing/parts list is wrong, and vague.
There's no numbers listed in it other than a reference, and they show the left side using one # for inner and outer, and the same on the right! <-- wrong.

One trick if anyone else needs to do this... there's a hole in the right side of the headstock casting that is plugged, then painted over! This little hole is critical, as it allows you take out the shaft that supports the rear pulley assembly (after removing the set screw that's hidden, pointing straight up). There's no way to remove the pulley shaft with the assembly installed (it's too long). Just guesstimate where the hole would be and tap it with a punch. Falls right in.

Time to grab some kerosene and start cleaning! FYI - methyl hydrate is WAY too wimpy. The grease just laughed at it as it ran away.

IMG_2008.JPG IMG_2040.JPG IMG_2041.JPG IMG_2042.JPG IMG_2043.JPG
 
Last edited:

pdentrem

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#9
On mine the countershaft is held by the equivalent of connecting rods from an engine. They have removable caps to remove the shaft. Other than the tumbler gears being inboard on your lathe the interior of both our lathes are the same.
Pierre
BTW The interior of Mine is likely just as dirty as yours too! By taking the head apart you will more fully understand how it all works as well.
 

HSS

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#10
Yeah, I can see why nobody would want to change that belt. What a pain!!!
 

Dr.Fiero

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#11
Well, now that it's been once, I'd be willing to do it again. Ummm, or not. Well, maybe. ;)

It's all nice and clean now (kerosene worked wonders!) anyhow:
IMG_2045.JPG

And I've got the back and middle part (back gears - which are in the middle!) back in:
IMG_2046.JPG

Found belts today (speaking of which, I take back my B32 motor to pulley belt listed above. I think a B31 might fit better).
ALSO - I listed them backwards. A B32 goes pulley to spindle, then the B31 is motor to pulley. And I reserve the right to get that wrong at least another 6 times.
But go figure - it's a Sunday afternoon and nobody had metric lip seals in stock! Sheesh! :D

I'll go hunting for the seals tomorrow.
(While this temporary unemployment thing sucks, it sure does leave more free time to do stuff like this though!)

IMG_2045.JPG IMG_2046.JPG
 
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valleyboy101

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#12
Hi All,

I know that belt changes can be painful However generally by the time a good belt is used up it time to give a once over to both the driving and driven ends. If one of my belt driven machines does't sound just right, my first suspicion is always the v belt.

Michael
 

RCWorks

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#13
Compared to my Harbor Freight 8x12 that THING you have came straight from Hell...

I have 2 belts... 1 V-belt and 1 timing belt, I think I could do both in 15 minutes while working on morning coffee.

I am however getting a bit tired of manually swapping gears.

This is something to consider when getting a new machine. I do plan on getting something bigger later on.

I am going to ask to see the manual on any new machine pre-purchase.

I'd be snapping pictures along the way just to be sure it all goes back the way it came out.
 

pdentrem

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#14
Belt drives are more forgiving at times, but belt changes are where Powertwist belts come in. A gear head only has the motor belt to change, usually less of a problem, but they do not like crashes etc as much.
Pierre
 

iron man

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#15
Your much braver than most a link belt would look pretty attractive when you first look at it.. Ray
 

Dr.Fiero

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#16
Oh yeah - for sure! That Fenner setup sounded like a miracle when I first looked at things.
Then remembered my oil loss though, so... that was out.

But, after I looked at it a few more times realized it was just a time consumer more than anything.
I'm a mechanic along with other things, so it really wasn't that different from one shaft of a manual trans (with no synchro's!).

Looks like the seals are another day out, so I'll have to go fetch them mid day tuesday.
Oh well... give me a chance to make my back splash, and start to rig the DRO.
 

Hotbluechips

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#17
I have a Enco lathe that has the main spindle going through the belt . I have thought about a link belt, Have them on Tablesaw and Shaper because they do not vibrate as much at start up. But they are easy to change. The belt on lathe has a worn place on it that causes a noise and vibration . I will replace with a regular "V" belt only because the previous owner already purchased it. Not looking forward to it , baeause of having to pull spindle. But I feel this is a more robust option than the link belt.
 

iron man

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#18
I have a Enco lathe that has the main spindle going through the belt . I have thought about a link belt, Have them on Tablesaw and Shaper because they do not vibrate as much at start up. But they are easy to change. The belt on lathe has a worn place on it that causes a noise and vibration . I will replace with a regular "V" belt only because the previous owner already purchased it. Not looking forward to it , baeause of having to pull spindle. But I feel this is a more robust option than the link belt.
I dont know I have a link belt on my lathe that is 20yrs old and still runs and looks like new I would not be affraid to use another one.. Ray
 
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pdentrem

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#19
Fenner Powertwist don't fail like some would have you think. I am running on a 3 hp cabinet table saw, 8 hp snowblower, and at the workshop a 15 ton stamping press, BP mills, wire drawing machine, etc etc. No problems from me. I use them and continue to use them.
Pierre
 

Dr.Fiero

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#20
Re: Belts... and why nobody (wants to) change them. :/

New seals in hand! Yay... Now assuming they're all correct (!!), I should be sort of up and running in an hour or so.

I say sort of, since I'm not lubing it back up at this point.
My hammertone paint is arriving tomorrow, and I of course want it still all dry and oil free.

I don't think I've ever had it this clean though! Looks pretty good, even with it's 25+ year old paint job.
(bear in mind it's only been mine for the last dozen, was beaten on before I got it, and I had the roof in my shop collapse on it during a rain storm!)
 

Sweeper

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#21
I've replaced all the belts on my power tools with Flex belts because they don't vibrate and make noise. I'm not sure how they would possibly make more noise than a std belt.

O...M....G....
I can see why the belt(s) on my ~1988 lathe still has what appears to be original belts in it, even though they're ratted out.

I've been ripping this thing down for what seem like hours on end. And I STILL don't even have the one belt out!
Got the back gears out without too much trouble.
Still battling with the rear V-pulleys and shaft assy.
Got part of the main shaft apart, but had to try a different area since the frustration level was getting too high.

Time to take a closer look at the parts breakdown. Would have been nice if the "service manual" actually said how to do this!

Yeah, I could go with one of those link belts, but I've heard too many people complain about them being noisy (and I hate noisy!), not to mention I need to change out the oil seals on the main shaft anyhow since I don't seem to be able to keep lube oil in it for any time. And it's super filthy in there, and needs a good cleaning out.

/rant. :D
 

ScubaSteve

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#22
Jeez....for being a hobby type lathe, that thing looks closer to a Cincinnati Hydrashift inside! If it makes you feel any better, I went through the same thing on a Sheldon 10"x56".

I was first considering doing the link-belts.....then decided to go with straight v-belts since I was already messing with adjusting the bearings.
SO, I ordered the belts (it was a double pulley), and wrestled with the spindle and ridiculously heavy underdrive.
Getting it out was a major undertaking....THEN I had to disassemble part of the e-drive to thread the belt.
I broke the double pulley along the way (didn't know about the "quick disconnect" style hub/sheaves) and had to replace it.
I reassembled everything but realized the belts weren't around the pulley...DOH!
Had to disassemble again, place belts, then reinstall the crazy heavy E-drive.
Once everything was in and I thought I was in the home stretch....the belts were TOO LONG!
No matter how I adjusted, there was too much slack.
SO, I had to cut two brand new belts and buy two new link-belts. A costly mistake if you figure in the price of a replacement pulley and 2 extra belts.
Luckily, nothing was damaged other than that pulley, but I could easily have cracked the underdrive using a gear/bearing puller and hammering away.

Now, whenever refurbishing old lathes, etc. I DO NOT TOUCH GEARBOXES OR SPINDLES....unless it is absolutely necessary. I wil kindly tell the perfectionist in me to shut up when it comes to having the "right" kind of belt.:nono:
 

Dr.Fiero

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#23
Well - in the end, believe it or not I'm GLAD I went to all this work.

It's all back together, and is now smoother and quieter than it's ever been. Along with being 100 times cleaner!
Since it was all apart, it gave me a chance to better understand exactly how everything worked together. I set the gear clearances in a far better fashion than they were. Found a few things that were downright loose, and it's all good now.

If anyone recalls one of my original posts about this machine, you might recall that I said it was REALLY noisy. Turns out that the back gears were totally out of adjustment. Fixed that, and now there's almost no more noise with them engaged than not.

IMG_2047.JPG IMG_2048.JPG




On a total side note...
If you're short on shelving (who isn't?); I was in Ikea the other day, and found these shelves in the kitchen section:
IMG_2049.JPG
Stainless steel, and easy mounting to the wall.


IMG_2050.JPG
Ditto on the stainless and easy mounting - but it's a magnetic (steak knife) strip.

I think they were $15 each or there about.

IMG_2047.JPG IMG_2048.JPG IMG_2049.JPG IMG_2050.JPG
 

pdentrem

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#24
Looking good! Other than the tumbler gears it is a dead ringer for mine. So next step is a little lipstick and polish and when your are done get it dirty.
Pierre
 

Dr.Fiero

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#25
Looking good! next step is a little lipstick and polish
Well - after doing all the mechanical stuff, it was just TOO damn ugly to leave.

So in connection with my thread about paint here: http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/12659-Paint-type-amp-color

LIPSTICK HAS BEEN APPLIED! :lmao:

Gun's cleaned, masking is pulled off.
After dinner I'll go start putting together the few things I pulled off to make life easier then report back with the legally required series of pictures.
 

Dr.Fiero

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#26
AAAAAAND as promised.....

The "new and improved" Busy Bee.

DSC_0284.JPG DSC_0285.JPG DSC_0287.JPG


The change gears on the end - simply because I never took a shot of them before. Meh.
DSC_0288.JPG


I liked the color so much, I painted a portable table top with it!
DSC_0290.JPG



And while totally unrelated... my "G0704" (which is actually a King Industrial VC20) in the process of being CNC'd.

DSC_0291.JPG

DSC_0284.JPG DSC_0285.JPG DSC_0287.JPG DSC_0288.JPG DSC_0290.JPG DSC_0291.JPG
 

pdentrem

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#27
Is that a carb sync stick behind the mill on the wall?
Pierre
 

Dr.Fiero

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#28
Yep! One I slapped together about 15 years ago.

I'm just finalizing the sale of my last multi cylinder bike though, so it's now just a wall hanging.
 

george wilson

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#29
I have one of those red ,commonly available link belts on my 14" Delta wood bandsaw. No noise issues with it. I got lucky some time ago,and got nearly a whole reel of the GOOD,industrial like belt,which I happen to have the tool for assembling it,too. Years ago I had a Burke #4 mill,and to avoid tearing down the headstock,I used the high grade link belting on it. No noise issues. I had to buy the tool to assemble that belting,and still have it.

This belting is made of black,fiber impregnated rubber,with metal rivets in every link.
 

mabmach

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#30
Aha! Success. Just needed a fresh day, a parts list... and a brass hammer. :D

Started like this:
View attachment 48750

All this and more "fell out" (ha! yeah right). This is only the main spindle:
View attachment 48751

Which left me with:
View attachment 48752 View attachment 48753 View attachment 48754


So - since this stuff isn't mentioned anywhere else on the web (that I could find after a few days!), hopefully Google will crawl it and find:
Motor to pulley belt: B31
Pulley to spindle belt: B32
Left outer oil seal: 65*85*12mm
Left inner oil seal: 55*75*12mm
Right inner oil seal: 60*80*10mm
Right outer oil seal: 80*100*12mm

I'll update this with the bearing numbers if I remember to look.

The drawing/parts list is wrong, and vague.
There's no numbers listed in it other than a reference, and they show the left side using one # for inner and outer, and the same on the right! <-- wrong.

One trick if anyone else needs to do this... there's a hole in the right side of the headstock casting that is plugged, then painted over! This little hole is critical, as it allows you take out the shaft that supports the rear pulley assembly (after removing the set screw that's hidden, pointing straight up). There's no way to remove the pulley shaft with the assembly installed (it's too long). Just guesstimate where the hole would be and tap it with a punch. Falls right in.

Time to grab some kerosene and start cleaning! FYI - methyl hydrate is WAY too wimpy. The grease just laughed at it as it ran away.
Hi, I just bought a Husky PC36 that was purchased from
Busy Bee 1980. it has a headstock that look exactly like yours. I have not been able to find a
manual for it and will have to replace the spindle seals. Where did you get your seals? Also will read your thread and would appreciate any
suggestions.
mabmach
 
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