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Boyer Shultz 6x12 rebuild

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Cadillac

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#1
Just wanted to start out by saying hi this is my first posting on here. Hopefully more informative and less cockiness then the "professional site". It's always a pissing match over there. Anyways.
I recently purchased a Boyer Shultz h612 challenger. Seems like a good unit for the price. So in my nature I completely disassembled the machine to clean,survey,and replace as needed. Spindle bearing felt gritty so I removed spindle housing. Read up as much as possible to get insight on what was to come. I read a fella made a nice fixture to hold the spindle on the flat just behind the taper so I made that. He also made a 4 pin socket to fit rear nut. I also made that. I had sprayed some pb blaster on a hour or so before. I put my fixture on spindle put the socket on rear nut. Expecting to put some force on it the nut spin right off. Maybe 10 ft lbs to take off. Surprised me would have thought more toque on that nut. Another surprise was instead of two bevel washer back2back like 99% of the people if read had. There are two ground spacers with like 8 pockets on one side each. The pocket faces are facing each other and have springs in each pocket. So it's a spring Assy for preload. Just not what I expected? Hopefully bearings clean up that's the plan.
So I figured I would tear the Boyer Shultz electric motor apart to clean and grease them 45yr old bearings. Their are 6203 z nsk hoover bearings made in USA stamped on them. Going on nsk site they say that a 6203z is shielded one side. Zz is both sides. Mine are both sides with only a single z. My question is can I just put a sealed bearing in its place same specs otherwise.? I want to grease the originals but one shield would get dimpled in the process. And they're cheap enough just replace which I have sealed on the shelf just not shielded. Other than regressed or replace bearings motor looked pristine inside.
As for the grinder I didn't take any measurements yet to see if it's gonna grind flat. It was filthy and I always disassemble every piece I buy to first go through it too see condition and replace or fix anything that's wrong with it. It's also a sickness but 9 1/2 out of 10 times I have something better than original for pennies on the dollar. It's gonna need the bellows for the lead screw so a source of those would be great also. I'm gonna wait to see when I put everything back together and hope for the best on how flat she grinds. Ways look okay. Some flaking still visible but fades closer to operator. The table looks to have hardened ways and the mating surface looks good so fingers crossed. I'm not a big fan of repainting the machine unless your gonna strip off all old and give it what a real paint job deserves. I'm actually a fan of a 100% clean degrease and leave the factory paint. Gives it character to me. Fortunately all my machines aren't abused so scratches and wear marks are minimal.
I'll ty and post some pictures of her when done I haven't looked into loading pictures on the site yet. Thanks in advance for any comments or insight you might have on repairs.
 

Ulma Doctor

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#2
congrats on the grinder!
i'm a recent owner too.
i'm still learning about the unit, but they are nice to operate!
 

Bob Korves

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#3
Just wanted to start out by saying hi this is my first posting on here. Hopefully more informative and less cockiness then the "professional site". It's always a pissing match over there. Anyways.
I recently purchased a Boyer Shultz h612 challenger. Seems like a good unit for the price. So in my nature I completely disassembled the machine to clean,survey,and replace as needed. Spindle bearing felt gritty so I removed spindle housing. Read up as much as possible to get insight on what was to come. I read a fella made a nice fixture to hold the spindle on the flat just behind the taper so I made that. He also made a 4 pin socket to fit rear nut. I also made that. I had sprayed some pb blaster on a hour or so before. I put my fixture on spindle put the socket on rear nut. Expecting to put some force on it the nut spin right off. Maybe 10 ft lbs to take off. Surprised me would have thought more toque on that nut. Another surprise was instead of two bevel washer back2back like 99% of the people if read had. There are two ground spacers with like 8 pockets on one side each. The pocket faces are facing each other and have springs in each pocket. So it's a spring Assy for preload. Just not what I expected? Hopefully bearings clean up that's the plan.
So I figured I would tear the Boyer Shultz electric motor apart to clean and grease them 45yr old bearings. Their are 6203 z nsk hoover bearings made in USA stamped on them. Going on nsk site they say that a 6203z is shielded one side. Zz is both sides. Mine are both sides with only a single z. My question is can I just put a sealed bearing in its place same specs otherwise.? I want to grease the originals but one shield would get dimpled in the process. And they're cheap enough just replace which I have sealed on the shelf just not shielded. Other than regressed or replace bearings motor looked pristine inside.
As for the grinder I didn't take any measurements yet to see if it's gonna grind flat. It was filthy and I always disassemble every piece I buy to first go through it too see condition and replace or fix anything that's wrong with it. It's also a sickness but 9 1/2 out of 10 times I have something better than original for pennies on the dollar. It's gonna need the bellows for the lead screw so a source of those would be great also. I'm gonna wait to see when I put everything back together and hope for the best on how flat she grinds. Ways look okay. Some flaking still visible but fades closer to operator. The table looks to have hardened ways and the mating surface looks good so fingers crossed. I'm not a big fan of repainting the machine unless your gonna strip off all old and give it what a real paint job deserves. I'm actually a fan of a 100% clean degrease and leave the factory paint. Gives it character to me. Fortunately all my machines aren't abused so scratches and wear marks are minimal.
I'll ty and post some pictures of her when done I haven't looked into loading pictures on the site yet. Thanks in advance for any comments or insight you might have on repairs.
Hey Cadillac! First learn how to spell "Boyar Schultz", or nobody will believe you have one. ;) It would probably be best to use double sealed bearings (SS) instead of the shielded ZZ bearings. They keep the grease in and the grit out. Just make sure you buy good quality ones, NOT the cheapest ones on eBay for sure! Those machines are complete orphans, so no factory parts are out there except perhaps some NOS parts that have been laying around for decades. Still, though, they probably used mostly standard hardware and common stock for most of their parts. See if you can find a user group for your grinder. Wait, let me do it, I know how to spell the name, and I don't even have a machine badge to copy from. :) Start looking here:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=boyar...7D7245C92B4980B8A499DBE0F8A623&FORM=QBRE&sp=2
Sorry, no luck on a user group or parts sellers that specialize in Boyar Schultz surface grinders...
If you do not have a parts and user manual, look here for free downloads: http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgIndex/detail.aspx?id=2682&tab=3 Edit: having the part numbers helps immensely when you are looking for rare and obsolete parts. Search on "Boyar Schultz" followed by the part number(s) you are looking for...
 

Cadillac

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#4
Thanks for the response guys. I’ve already downloaded all the manuals I can find.
So you say don’t get cheap bearings. If I order from a grainger or McMaster will those be quality. I really don’t understand this bearing stuff. I am a heavy equipment mechanic. When I order bearings I go by numbers on races along with measurements. I know their are different grades but if I order a 6203z shouldn’t I get a 6203z where is the grade in that number. I thought a 6200 series was a single deep groove bearing. And all are a class 3. Am I wrong with that assumption??? What class would the 5 dollar bearing be on eBay a knock off??? I’m not cheap and am more than willing to pay to play.
Here’s a picture of spindle Assy. Anybody ever see this style of preload spring on the boyar Shultz. All the pics I’ve seen had the double Belleville washers back to back. Thanks again. image.jpg
 
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f350ca

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#5
Welcome Cadillac
Your grinder is a newer version than mine. I've seen the spring preload design before but mine doesn't use that. The grease in my bearings was dried out, after wasting them out I repacked them and they seam to be running fine. Did take a bit of flack at the timefor attempting to service a precision bearing though.
The bellows on my cross feed were shot too. This may seam a bit of a back yard hack but I made coil springs from piano wire then slid a bicycle inner tube over them and fixed the ends. Seams to be working fine. Had no idea where to source bellows.
If they used shielded bearings on the motor they may have had a reason. Wonder if fine grinder grit might wear the seals prematurely. If the originals are still smooth I'd be tempted to pop the shields and wash and repack them.

Greg
 

Bob Korves

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#6
Thanks for the response guys. I’ve already downloaded all the manuals I can find.
So you say don’t get cheap bearings. If I order from a grainger or McMaster will those be quality. I really don’t understand this bearing stuff. I am a heavy equipment mechanic. When I order bearings I go by numbers on races along with measurements. I know their are different grades but if I order a 6203z shouldn’t I get a 6203z where is the grade in that number. I thought a 6200 series was a single deep groove bearing. And all are a class 3. Am I wrong with that assumption??? What class would the 5 dollar bearing be on eBay a knock off??? I’m not cheap and am more than willing to pay to play.
Here’s a picture of spindle Assy. Anybody ever see this style of preload spring on the boyar Shultz. All the pics I’ve seen had the double Belleville washers back to back. Thanks again. View attachment 264019
The grades of bearings has to do with their dimensional tolerances. I have seen people drill through cheap import bearings, making a nice curled chip. I have seen the races squeezed flat in a vise without failing. Junk. The part numbers of bearings are anything the manufacturer or importer wants to use. There is no regulation and enforcement of bearings. Whatever standards do exist are agreed specifications agreed among bearing manufacturer associations, and the junk bearing makers and sellers are not members. There are also counterfeit bearings out there. Buy good quality bearings from a trusted source for applications you really care about. Surface grinder bearings are high on that list.
 

Ulma Doctor

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#7
Bellows can be found at McMaster Carr in different sizes

as far as bearings go ABEC3 bearings are normal off the shelf general purpose bearings
ABEC5 will be a more precision grade, ABEC7 will be even better yet but they get very expensive as the grade of bearing goes up

i would also second Bob Korves suggestion of using SS (double seal) rather ZZ (dust shield) bearings for this application
 

tertiaryjim

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#8
There should be bearing retailers in your area. Might be under power transmission.
You can check with them for cost to make a decision.
Hope you can find a torque spec for the spindle nut.
 

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#9
+1 on all that has been said so far.

Because of all the work you are putting into the machine, it would be a waste to put in cheap bearings. Because they are a fairly small and common size, I'd guess that even the best you can obtain won't break the bank. In the Frozen North we can go to FAG bearings directly, and be sure we have great bearings.

Good luck on the rebuild!
 

Cadillac

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#11
So after a little more research and memory refresh I remember that a shielded bearing runs cooler than a sealed type. And drag on spindle from seals maybe even harmonics from the seal. So I’m guessing but that’s when they don’t use sealed in a direct drive spindle. Turns out I have a dozen or so 6203zzc3 bearings NOS nsk in sealed bags.
Now the question is I know these new bearings are at least 10 yr old. Do I worry about the shelf life of the grease in the bearings. I’ve already pulled the shields on the original bearings cleaned and reassembled one side of shields. Can even tell where I pryed. I straightened them easily.
So I’ve been researching what grease to repack in the cleaned spindle and in the motor bearings. 99% of what I saw was kluber I forgot the rest but easy to find. So I need to order some of that. I figure for the 30 bucks at least it will give me the best results on cleaning and repacking the bearings. Anything else out there that’s comparable?
 

Cadillac

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#13
Has anyone disassembled the rack and pinion shaft for the traverse. Mine is a manual model and I can’t seem to figure out how the shaft comes out of the table. I’ve gotten the small shaft that’s inside the other out. I removed the seal that’s behind the hand wheel. It looks to be a needle bearing next. I’ve looked at the parts breakdown and can figure it out. I want to replace needle bearings and so. It has the spring inside the table so you can index your traverse to your part. Any help? Thanks
 

Cadillac

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#14
So I figured out how to disassemble the hand wheel. It must be driven out towards the front of the machine. I did find that the front needle bearing was missing two needles. No good. Hopefully their available. I do have a question on needle bearings. What's the difference between a needle bearing that is full of rollers vs. ones that have a plastic cage and only about eight spaced rollers. In this grinder there are three different places with needle bearings and each application has a different style.
 

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#15
Needle bearing that are all needles and no spacer are rated for more load bearing capability. The ones with spacers usually move more freely with less effort.
 

Cadillac

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#16
Thanks dabbler makes sense now pointed out. I feel pretty lucky. After posting I went on old Ebay found all five bearings needed for under 20 bucks and their NOS Torrington’s which makes me feel better. Everything seems to be working out good for this grinder.
 

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#17
I spent over 2K$ for my grinder, picked it up from 960 km (500 mi) away, and had to rebuild the entire lube system, (which is still ongoing). You have one great deal there!
 

Cadillac

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#18
Just alittle update. All the bearings have cleaned up perfect to me. I've ordered some kluber nbu15 just waiting arrival. All parts for machine have been degreased and cleaned ready for reassembly. Right now I'm laying out electrical. Using the original control box but gutted everything. Added a fan, switches for new vac system,and switch and wiring for light. Machine didn't come with a vac system but I have enough parts laying around to make a nice one. Vfd wiring is laid out. Parts should be here before mid week anticipation sucks!
 

ACHiPo

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#19
Dumb question--why Kluber and not another grease?
 

Cadillac

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#20
Never a dumb question as I asked the same weeks ago. And the response I received was its long proven success in the oem world.o_O I have umpteen tubes of grease all different grades and uses. From what I think you want a no1 grade grease meaning on the thinner side not a no2 which is most grades you find at auto parts stores. I figured 30 bucks verses maybe 300 bucks I'll try the kluber. Make me a believer:rolleyes:
Funny thing is after using some kluber I have a 5 gallon pail of lubriplate 630aa which is about the same spec but I needed 8oz of more grease:cool:.
 

Ulma Doctor

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#21
you'll never go wrong with German made anything.
they take specifications very seriously and their quality control is excellent

i'm very interested in the thread,
i may need to rebuild my spindle if i can't adjust my preload and feel warm and fuzzy inside after doing so
 

Ulma Doctor

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#22
Hey @Cadillac ,
just out of curiosity where did you order Kluber from?

did i read this correctly- you got 8 oz of Kluber for the job?
sorry if the question accentuates my ignorance as to the capacity of grease in the spindle unit.
i was considering purchasing a cartridge (14oz), but if 8oz will do the job- i'll most likely go that route and save some coin.
thanks in advance :)
 

Cadillac

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#23
833DC2F4-9D20-4FD6-956E-3A06FBD2732E.jpeg . The cheapest I found was the Cnc store. If you look at the picture the number for the place is on the tube. And 14oztube would be in the 130 dollar region. That would last a long long time. Probably longer than the recommended 10 yr shelf life. I got a 50 gram bottle will last about 4-5 sets of bearings.
As for the rebuild a little progress. I reassembled the electric motor and did my own little break in. I have a 1000rpm motor that I rigged up to spin the other for about 20 min. Hope it dispersed grease properly. Gonna do the spindle tonight. I’ll update.
 

Bob Korves

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#24
Hey @Cadillac ,
just out of curiosity where did you order Kluber from?

did i read this correctly- you got 8 oz of Kluber for the job?
sorry if the question accentuates my ignorance as to the capacity of grease in the spindle unit.
i was considering purchasing a cartridge (14oz), but if 8oz will do the job- i'll most likely go that route and save some coin.
thanks in advance :)
The first thing I would do is to RTFM, if there actually is such a thing for your spindle, and then follow the instructions to the letter. Spindle repair is expensive, it is fussy, and there seems to be a lot of hokus pokus involved in specialists trying to keep the work for themselves as well. They get a lot of money for their work. Still, it is serious business. The spindle is the heart of the surface grinder, and it needs to be correct.

Ball bearing spindles in general do not require large amounts of grease. The bearings themselves only need to be partially filled with grease. Your Boyar-Schultz spindle will never turn more than 3600 rpm in factory trim, so it is not truly a "high speed" spindle, but it is not like automotive wheel bearings, either. I suspect that the B-S spindle bearings would be spec'd to be maybe 20-30% full of grease (guessing) at most. The remainder of the spindle does not need grease, except on any ordinary rubber shaft seals (if your surface grinder actually has such seals.) Sometimes it is worth putting some grease at the ends of the spindle to help keep grit out of the insides where the bearings are. I would also be tempted to put a light film of grease on everything inside the spindle casing to keep rust (which is grit) at bay and to keep any grit that is in there or gets in there trapped from migrating to the bearings. Only the bearings themselves need the high end grease, maybe 2 ounces total at most, any additional grease (if that is indeed wise) could be most anything with a viscosity high enough not to migrate and good enough quality to never dry out.

Disclaimer: I have never rebuilt a surface grinder spindle with ball bearings, only with plain bearings. My plain bearing spindle only has labyrinths built into the end housings to keep out dust and grit. I put a light coating of grease in the labyrinths to help keep out grit, but a bit of the ISO 2 spindle oil works its way through there and probably flushes out the area anyway.

Oh, and spindle repair is a "clean room" job, do your best...
 

Cadillac

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#25
I think Ive done my research on the subject and feel confident of my work. As stated the bs spindle is not necessarily high speed. I do have a nice breakdown of spindle but really does nothing more. I marked races when I pulled. Everything else is pretty straight forward. I will check spindle for runout but not expecting much since before disassembly it only flickered a tenths indicator.
As for spindle repair. I don’t think it’s rocket science work. I’m a field mechanic for heavy equipment. I’ve rebuild more hydraulic pumps valves spindles etc that I feel it’s not that different. Pay attention,take notes, pictures. Keep clean on reassembly and be thorough. I’ll definitely keep you guys posted. Thanks
 

Ulma Doctor

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#26
i broke my grinder down tonight.
my problem was simple, the original rubber lovejoy coupling spider has disintegrated.
the result is the coupling halves were clacking together, giving me the false thought that there was slop in the spindle.
the spindle checked out, no slop and considerably less than a tenth runout.

thankfully the L070 spider is inexpensive. i purchased a urethane replacement.
now i gotta wait a few days to ship from ebay :frown 2:

i agree, these spindles are not rocket science- there may be arguable fine points for ultra precision-
but we'll never see half-millionth's :grin big:

if you can work on hydraulics, pumps and equipment, you can push some bearings on a spindle :grin:
 

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#27
my problem was simple, the original rubber lovejoy coupling spider has disintegrated.
I meant to mention that to you, Mike, a very common problem on direct drive motor/spindle grinders. For others, twist the spindle forwards and backwards looking for rotational backlash. If you feel it, you probably need a new shaft coupling spider. Mike, your new spider should help make your grinder run better and smoother.
 

Bob Korves

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#28
i agree, these spindles are not rocket science- there may be arguable fine points for ultra precision-
but we'll never see half-millionth's :grin big:
I agree. The main issue is the sky high prices for many/most spindle bearings in surface grinders. It is not like buying wheel bearings for your car! Some are also obsolete. Take really good care of your spindle bearings and it can save you many hundreds of dollars to replace them.
 

Cadillac

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#29
So after clean up and inspection I noticed something maybe someone knows. My machine a BS h612 challenger. Circa late 70’s. I’ve read in earlier and my manual that as a option hardened ground and scraped ways. I’m no expert by any means but when I look at the “scraped” surface. To me it’s been ground and flaked. All marks are connected by the tail of flaking process. The pattern is crisscrossed and way to repetitive for scraping to me. I know I should post pictures but I’m not there now I will do so later. Any thoughts.
Another thing looking in the manual it says the vertical column is lubed from the oiling system. I cannot see a path that the oil would get to the vertical ways. Unless they use the bevel gear oil line and it just gravity drips through gear,and thrust bearing area eventually overflowing off plate and mysteriously finding its way to the ways????
Was just wondering for reassembly if I should put a thin film of grease on column then let whatever drip. Again any thoughts??
 

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#30
On the vertical and cross feed ways where there are machine loads you can't have too much oil. If you put a cup oiler and direct the oil onto the vertical ways it wouldn't hurt. BUT I'd try to get a manual and make sure the original oiler is working, too. My B&S is from the 90s, and all my oil lines were clogged with congealed oil. it was (and still is) a mess!

If your machine has Bijurs, it can get a little pricey!
 
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