Carbide Tools With Shaper

You probably won't find much information about using carbide on a shaper. By the time carbide became popular most shapers were heading to the scrap yard or some hobbyists basement. Remember most publications on the subject of cutting tools are geared toward the professional shop. None of the manufacturers are going to spend the time and money to develop guidelines or tooling that they will never sell.

I can't imagine how long a little AMMCO, Atlas, or South Bend shaper would last going the speeds it would take to make using carbide cost effective in a professional shop. On the other side of the coin can you imagine some big old Cincinnati or Rockford dancing across the floor going 3 times it's normal speed trying get the full benefit of what carbide tooling could do.

While it's fun to experiment, and may work in a limited production mode, I don't think you'll see carbide tooling being marketed for industrial shapers any time in the near future. Personally I'll stick with HSS. It's cheap, can be ground to almost any profile, and if I continue to use it my shaper will probably never need to be rebuilt.
 
You probably won't find much information about using carbide on a shaper. By the time carbide became popular most shapers were heading to the scrap yard or some hobbyists basement. Remember most publications on the subject of cutting tools are geared toward the professional shop. None of the manufacturers are going to spend the time and money to develop guidelines or tooling that they will never sell.

I can't imagine how long a little AMMCO, Atlas, or South Bend shaper would last going the speeds it would take to make using carbide cost effective in a professional shop. On the other side of the coin can you imagine some big old Cincinnati or Rockford dancing across the floor going 3 times it's normal speed trying get the full benefit of what carbide tooling could do.

While it's fun to experiment, and may work in a limited production mode, I don't think you'll see carbide tooling being marketed for industrial shapers any time in the near future. Personally I'll stick with HSS. It's cheap, can be ground to almost any profile, and if I continue to use it my shaper will probably never need to be rebuilt.
Likely, the Rockford would have been appropriate for carbide, what with its hydraulic drive, tool lifter, and great mass. My Gould & Eberhardt 20-24 from 1956 had a tool lifter option as well, and a spring affair to hold the clapper box down or limit its travel so that it does not "clap" too loud or hard, causing the vertical slide to creep down. I doubt that carbide would have been used for normal work, but may have had a niche in machining difficult, hard, and abrasive materials.
 
Forget what the HSS police have to say about home shop equipment and carbide. CCMT works fine on flimsy HSM type machines like my 8" Logan. I use this little gem off ebay from China, no chipping, beauty cuts even in gummy 1018, It works at slow speeds and feeds or quicker with about same results. First read about this on the shaper yahoo board.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/301823671883
 
Do you have any problems with inserts coming loose? I tried indexable tools TWICE and both times the tips came loose, second time it also had 428 Loctite on the thread. Switched to brazed Carbide and no problems whatsoever.
 
On my little 8" shaper I don't ever run a job long enough to have insert loosening problems. With the ccmt I get a tightly wound spiral chip, that appears to cut very easy in mild steel.
 
I'll chime in again; HSS does just fine on a shaper on all but the hardest materials, and most shapers do not have the power and cutting speed to make advantage of carbide's potential; learn to grind a proper HSS tool instead of relying on inserts, which do not have the proper geometry to cut freely on a shaper, mostly side rake, which makes a huge difference in free cutting and power consumption.
The only time that I have had to use carbide on my 20-24 G&E shaper was to re machine the dovetail slot in the sow block for my 100LB power hammer where the bottom die had been welded in and the casting had (very) hard spots in it; in that instance the carbide was just barely able to cut through it without leaving raised bumps where the welds were. I previously made the example of a guy at the shop where I apprenticed, making a show on our big planer (6ft X 6ft X 15ft) he was using a brazed on carbide tool with 1" square shank and making big blue closely spiraled chips at a fairly high table speed; I came on the machine later with a job with similar requirements for stock removal and used HSS with a rounded nose, minimum end and side clearence and ample side rake and was able to cut at the same speed, perhaps more feed and had chips that flowed off the tool shiny, and then turned blue. I used the basic tool shapes as developed by F.W. Taylor in his epic experiments back in the 1880s; he and his partner Maunsel White discovered the "Taylor - White" process for hardening HSS and in 1897, I think, came out with his book "On The Art of Cutting Metals".
 
I must confess to being a lover of HSS tools, I can get awesome finishes on work coming off my 10" stroke royal shaper, my 6"stroke adept, The same goes for the finishes I can get on my slotting machine6" stroke a powerful machine which can hogg of the metal, on my 20"stroke hand operated planing machine high speed steel is the same results as the first mentioned machines, I would have a constant worry about carbide tooling on a shaper shattering & the resulting possible damage to my machines Guess I am a present day disciple of Taylor & White. a bit old fashioned
 
I must confess to being a lover of HSS tools, I can get awesome finishes on work coming off my 10" stroke royal shaper, my 6"stroke adept, The same goes for the finishes I can get on my slotting machine6" stroke a powerful machine which can hogg of the metal, on my 20"stroke hand operated planing machine high speed steel is the same results as the first mentioned machines, I would have a constant worry about carbide tooling on a shaper shattering & the resulting possible damage to my machines Guess I am a present day disciple of Taylor & White. a bit old fashioned
What kind of slotting machine do you have? Mine is a 6"Pratt & Whitney, and with it I use mostly the old OK brand of forged tools. Call me old fashioned also!!
 
F. W. Taylor conducted experiments in cutting metal for about 20 some years, with no product being produced, only metal being removed in the fastest way possible by tools shaped to the most productive shape run at the most productive speeds and feeds; the Taylor White process of heat treating HSS was discovered by accident, they were using Mushet steel, a super carbon steel at that time; they were preparing a tool for the usual heat treatment by heating it in a forge and it got forgotten or neglected and became white hot, throwing sparks at a white heat; they decided to proceed with the process rather than assume that the tool was ruined by burning it and they discovered after grinding it an putting it to use that it would hold up to speeds about double the normal speeds used before failing; these tools would actually cut at a red heat! They did not discover HSS, but they did discover the two stage high heat treatment that revolutionized cutting tools and industrial productivity. Subsequent to that he came out with a second book about scientific industrial management, titled "Shop Management" He was one of the original efficiency experts that hoped to drive men like machines, giving them very specific tasks with all details specified. Another man who was active at the same period was Frank Gilbreth, a time and motion study man; it has been said that between him and Taylor, the foundation of modern industry rested on their shoulders. Gilbreth was also the father of the "Cheaper by the Dozen" children detailed in a book by that name; he regimented them in efficiency in all their daily lives.
 
What kind of slotting machine do you have? Mine is a 6"Pratt & Whitney, and with it I use mostly the old OK brand of forged tools. Call me old fashioned also!!
Hi Benny,
you are very lucky to have a 6" Pratt & Whitney, That is a very nice machine especially if it is the toolroom slotter, My slotting machine is a british Denham of Halifax 1940 machine war time finish, (only referred to the paintwork, It is a nicely built machine tool It is more conservative in design than the Pratt & Whitney, having flat belt cone pulley drive, However it is strong & useful.

As a small matter A friend of mine in Glasgow had a Pratt & Whitney tool room slotter Number 13 Which he used until his factory died in the early 1980/s I believe it went to Africa .I would imagine pretty early on in the batches of these pattern of toolroom slotters.
 
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