Cheap Chinese bandsaw issues etc.

I'm thinking that over time someone may have modified the original valve mechanism controlling the flow on your down feed dampener cylinder. If you look closely at the picture of the cylinder in the manual I posted earlier, you'll see that on page 29 there is a picture of the cylinder and the control valves. It has a needle valve at the top port connected to a ball valve just below it. Do you have both the needle valve and the ball valve? It sounds like you only have the ball valve. The needle valve is supposed to be used to control the flow. Once the flow is set the ball valve below it is used to stop and start the down feed. The ball valve is intended to be either fully opened or fully closed.

While a pinch valve may provide somewhat better control, I doubt it was used on this machine. A needle valve is relatively inexpensive and rugged enough to be the standard for this application. If you look at the pictures of my Startrite saw, you'll seek a black plastic knob on the front of the machine near the top center. That is the knob that opens and closes the needle valve which in turn controls the flow of the oil through the down feed cylinder. On the Startrite saw there is no second ball valve inline to stop and start the flow. The needle valve itself is opened and closed to set the flow rate and start and stop the flow.

Sorry, I missed your post and I just saw it now. I do have both the ball valve and the needle valve. Perhaps the angle on thd photos made it look different. Here is the zoomed up part. The needle valve has a brass knob on top.
Compress_20230326_150343_3600.jpg
The ball valve is beneath.

It wouldn't be unusual for those saws to get modified. I saw many versions of the same castings, but the cylinder seems similar to others. One difference is sometimes a needle walce with a black knob or a larger knob is used I think.

The ball valve is there as an extra feature advertised to "allow you to stop and start the feed without having to change the settings".

I'm curious, does your Startrite saw allow you to set the downfeed to let's say 10 thou per second (you would need a dial indicator with a mag base to see it) and if you leave it like this for few inches of travel. Will it stop or not? If I remember correctly from the photos your saw has both a movable counterweight and a spring in addition to the cylinder(if I confused it with someone else's I'm sorry). If this is the case could you set both to : weight to high, spring to low (so if the hydraulic feed was opened it would want to fall very fast) and control downfeed for very slow rate with just the needle valve?

I'm pretty sure any saw set like this with the same cylinder (with counterweights and spring taken out of equation) will stop too, but it would be nice to have a confirmation.
 
My saw is similar to yours. It does get stuck on the down feed at times, especially with a slow down feed. I have often wondered about that. Only way to get it going again is to open the needle valve some and then close it down again.

Given your rough calculations on clearances in the valve, I'm wondering if a flush of the hydraulic system would make sense. If these units are like all the other made in China equipment, things are likely contaminated with swarf and grit. That stuff may load up the needle valve and block flow?

My saw is not dialed in - it's still rough. It never worked that well. Even the cut off switch at the end of cut is an awful stupid contraption that physically turns off the main power switch. The saw cuts, but it requires baby sitting. It's not a set up and come back and it's done.
 
My saw is similar to yours. It does get stuck on the down feed at times, especially with a slow down feed. I have often wondered about that. Only way to get it going again is to open the needle valve some and then close it down again.

Given your rough calculations on clearances in the valve, I'm wondering if a flush of the hydraulic system would make sense. If these units are like all the other made in China equipment, things are likely contaminated with swarf and grit. That stuff may load up the needle valve and block flow?

My saw is not dialed in - it's still rough. It never worked that well. Even the cut off switch at the end of cut is an awful stupid contraption that physically turns off the main power switch. The saw cuts, but it requires baby sitting. It's not a set up and come back and it's done.
Interesting. I did a flush. I cleaned it very well. I also tried liquids of different viscosities (heavy hear oil, 46 weight hydraulic oil, and diesel). None made any change with this stopping.

Unless it leaks or it gets stuck at higher feed rates (higher than 1mm-40 thou per second) I don't think flushing will do much.

Still, I read online people did have congealed oil in the valve and flushing helped them. So it depends...

I think I'll try a counterweight first as its easy to make one.
 
WobblyHand may be onto something. Even though you've flushed the system there may still be some contaminants, or misplaced sealant that could be causing a problem. His comment reminded me of a problem I encountered back in the 1970's. While the details are far different the concept is the same.

I had an older (1954) International R190 truck I used for business. After about a year of ownership it developed a problem where it would occasionally die when driving down the road. For all the world it felt like it was running out of gas. However it happened randomly no matter the amount of gas in the tank. I checked all the usual suspects, carb, fuel pump, fuel lined fuel filter, etc. to no avail. Sometimes it would happen several times in a day. Other times it wouldn't happen for months.

The weird thing was that when it died, I could pull over to the side of the road, let it set for a minute or less and it would start right up and continue on its way. After months of frustration, I finally decided to lower the gas tank and see what was going on inside. That's when I found the problem.

When the truck was built the tank fuel pickup/sending unit was installed with the paper part number tag still wired to the down tube. After 20+ years of being exposed to the fuel and air the wire finally rusted through. The paper was free to float wherever it wanted to. From time to time, it would find its way under the pick-up tube and be sucked against the bottom of it. The gas would no longer flow, and the engine would die. As soon as the suction was released by the fuel pump the tag would be released and once again float away. After the tag was removed the problem was solved. I had the truck another 5 years and never again had a problem with it stalling out while driving.

In your case the problem could be a misplaced piece of Teflon tape or pipe sealant, swarf or grit from assembly that's too big or heavy to be expelled when flushing. Another problem could be a damaged or partially blocked needle valve.

As for my Startrite saw it does have a spring at the pivot end of the head, but no counterweight. The spring has multiple mounting points to control the amount of down pressure the head can exert on the down feed dampener cylinder.
 
WobblyHand may be onto something. Even though you've flushed the system there may still be some contaminants, or misplaced sealant that could be causing a problem. His comment reminded me of a problem I encountered back in the 1970's. While the details are far different the concept is the same.

I had an older (1954) International R190 truck I used for business. After about a year of ownership it developed a problem where it would occasionally die when driving down the road. For all the world it felt like it was running out of gas. However it happened randomly no matter the amount of gas in the tank. I checked all the usual suspects, carb, fuel pump, fuel lined fuel filter, etc. to no avail. Sometimes it would happen several times in a day. Other times it wouldn't happen for months.

The weird thing was that when it died, I could pull over to the side of the road, let it set for a minute or less and it would start right up and continue on its way. After months of frustration, I finally decided to lower the gas tank and see what was going on inside. That's when I found the problem.

When the truck was built the tank fuel pickup/sending unit was installed with the paper part number tag still wired to the down tube. After 20+ years of being exposed to the fuel and air the wire finally rusted through. The paper was free to float wherever it wanted to. From time to time, it would find its way under the pick-up tube and be sucked against the bottom of it. The gas would no longer flow, and the engine would die. As soon as the suction was released by the fuel pump the tag would be released and once again float away. After the tag was removed the problem was solved. I had the truck another 5 years and never again had a problem with it stalling out while driving.

In your case the problem could be a misplaced piece of Teflon tape or pipe sealant, swarf or grit from assembly that's too big or heavy to be expelled when flushing. Another problem could be a damaged or partially blocked needle valve.

As for my Startrite saw it does have a spring at the pivot end of the head, but no counterweight. The spring has multiple mounting points to control the amount of down pressure the head can exert on the down feed dampener cylinder.

Wow, I wouldn't want to be troubleshooting that issue with the truck :)

With my issue being caused by clogging I can't exclude that possibility, but if it is indeed clogging it must be with something that is pretty evenly dispersed through the liquid and very small (on the order of 300nm). Stuff that small is not just invisible to naked eye. It can't be seen with an optical microscope because it is smaller than the wavelength of light. So one would need an electron microscope to see it...

It is quite possible that all 3 liquids I tried, gear oil, hydraulic oil and diesel ended up with some particulates like this. However, I did not just flush it. Every time I changed the liquid. I disassembled the cylinder and valves. I blowed compressed air through everything. The first two times I did it I also removed the needle from the needle valve, I replaced o-rings in the needle valve. On the second fluid change I polished the needle (first with 1000,then 2000 grit car paint sandpaper, finally with a "mirror shine" paste for aluminium so the needle had a mirror polish after the second fluid change). I then cleaned it very well in lots of petrol, and compressed air hoping not to introduce any of this abrasive grit into the system.

With regard to there being sealant or tape, or any other macroscopic stuff I think it would clog even at higher settings(as the gap is still well under half a thou even at fast settings) and it would happen at random, but it is very predictable. The lower the downfeed setting the sooner it happens. There are certain very low settings like let's say 2 thou per second where you can sit there and see it stop every single time within 30 seconds. This repeatability in my opinion points against any macroscopic stuff that could clog it and towards something that is evenly dispersed throughout.

As for there being microscopic particulates, that is possible, but rather than coming from the liquids (this is quite unlikely) they must have been present in the cylinder and the cleaning hasn't removed it. Perhaps honing grit from the manufacturing process embedded in cylinder walls that falls into the liquid slowly?

Perhaps I'll try disassembling everything again and running it through an ultrasonic cleaner. Then I could perhaps try distilled water as liquid (I can't think of anything cleaner that's easily available).

Looking at another angle of this. Wow, what a difference flood coolant makes on this saw. I set up flood coolant and I tried cutting the same tool steel block again today. I only had an hour of time and in that time it did approximately 60% of the cut. :chunky: and I haven't pushed it to the full yet. This is with the 6/10 blade.

That's how far it got in an hour. The motor slowly got to 55C again.
Compress_20230326_195657_7647.jpg
Some chips suggest that perhaps it could be fed even faster.
Compress_20230326_195657_7842.jpg
At this fairly high setting I didn't even had the stoppage issue. So unexpectedly, is flood coolant the solution? This is O1 tool steel BTW.
 
Looks pretty good to me!

My POS saw blade was slipping today when I went to use it. It wasn't slipping when I last used it in the fall. Saw needs a full tear down and some attention. It's on the list for this year. Hope I can fix it, but it definitely isn't well made. Oh well, this is your thread. I will make my own.
 
Looks pretty good to me!

My POS saw blade was slipping today when I went to use it. It wasn't slipping when I last used it in the fall. Saw needs a full tear down and some attention. It's on the list for this year. Hope I can fix it, but it definitely isn't well made. Oh well, this is your thread. I will make my own.
It's fine. I'm quite unexpectedly happy with my saw now (thanks to a steady stream of coolant I think). No doubt I'll think differently about that coolant after it sits unused for few months...

As for your saw. I previously had some blade slippage issues and one of the two things resolved it. One - increasing blade tension. Various manuals describe adequate blade tension as 1mm side movement under "hand pressure", others say 3mm, another manual says "enough tension for the blade to stop free rotation of one of the guide roller bearings in front, then one and a quarter turn more", then someone on this forum said "as much as you can exert with one hand" and this turned out to be the pressure my belt needs not to slip. At the same time my motor started heating up mildly (up to 55C or 130F) after an hour of work. This motor operating temp is up to 75C (167F) on the case so it is likely fine. So why the long description? To describe that there are many opinions about the correct setting, but if the belt slips on clean rollers on normal feed, probably tension is too low.

This brings us to the thing number two - oil on the drive roller and the idler. I used to use cutting oil with this saw drip fed into the cut. I think this was contributing to blade slip. When I removed the blade to clean the saw both wheels were covered in it. I cleaned them and the blade with acetone, before reassembly. After tensioning It only slips when I really push it too hard.
 
Thank you. The saw has 3 speeds. The manual said (If I remember correctly) to use the middle speed for steel (28m/min or 84sfpm). The lower speed is 19m/min (57sfpm). Top speed is 50m/min(150sfpm).

I cut mild steel at middle speed, tool steel (o1 - in soft state) on slowest and aluminium on highest.

Do those of you that cut dry do the same? Or do you cut mild steel on the slowest setting?
I'm not on the clock, I just leave it on the slowest speed for everything.
 
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