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ogberi

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#1
Hi All,

Going down to look at a Cin Toolmaster after work today. Not sure what sort of shape it's in, looks a bit rough but servicable. Hopefully it's powered, so I can hear it run & check it over better. Wish I had a DI, base, and other goodies with me. If I understand correctly, most Cin Toolmasters use a 40 taper. Is that correct? Are collets hard to come by?

I'll know more this evening. At any rate, i'm going to hit the bank to have cash in hand as a downpayment, in case it pans out. So far, i've had great luck in 2016 with tools and tooling. A nice big vertical mill is the last machine i need (for now).
 

Bob Korves

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#2
I don't know much about Cincinnati Toolmasters, but 40 taper tooling is quite common. There are several flavors of 40 taper tooling, but they can usually be adapted to work, sometimes a different drawbar will be needed. Lots of CNC machines use 40 taper. The 40 taper tooling costs more than R8 tooling, but there are deals to be found on used tooling.
 

Mark in Indiana

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#3
More information please?
Pictures please?

Inquiring Cincinnati minds.....
 

Uglydog

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#4
Mine is a 1B.
I prefer it to the Bridgeys I've run. But, don't want to start any fights.
No nodding head available.
Some take the taper. Mine takes the Cincy proprietary collet.
Plenty available used. More expensive than the imported R8s.
Before I could turn mine on I needed to make parts. They are difficult to find.
Depending on what they want for her, I wouldn't mind picking up a powerfeed, extra motor etc.
If you have additional, or specific questions, please let me know.
Olcopper picked up a 1E. Should be a sweet machine.
I've not touched a 1D, but have touched seen many ads for them.
I've read about complaints for the French made Toolmasters. They'd be the newer models.

Daryl
MN
 

ogberi

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#5
Hi All,

Sorry for the delay, been busier than a 1 armed paper hanger in a hurricane.

I went down and saw the machine under power. It's a little noisy, but nothing that indicated a death rattle or expensive repairs. The ways were a bit worn, but still snug and everything operated smoothly.

The X feed could probably use an oil change in it's gearbox, but it runs smoothly and has no issues other than a missing stop on the table. Easy enough to make a new one. The machine has a 10x42 table, which is plenty big enough for anything I'm planning in the next few years. Power feed on the X axis, and the quill has power up/downfeed. The machine itself is 2hp, 3ph, 240V. I'll need to buy a VFD and get help from this forum to get it wired up and running once it's in place and I have a 240V drop for it.

Yep, I'm purchasing it. Going down this Thursday, taking a little extra time off work, to have the seller load it on a trailer and I'll baby it home. The auto breaker across the main road agreed to unload it for me, and in my mind, him using that big honkin' loader he uses to stack junk cars to get it off the trailer is well worth the $45 it'll cost me for probably 20 minutes of work on his part.

It'll take a month or two for me to get it running. I need to clear out a space, get it home and in that space, then get a 240V drop run, and a VFD set up before I can do anything with it. It isn't a made-in-france model, as it's clearly well rounded and bulbous about the head and spindle housing. Unfortunately, pictures will have to wait until I get it home. The seller already pulled the ad, and because time was rather tight when I checked it out, I neglected to snap pics of it.

This week promises to be insanely busy. I'm helping my brother move stuff to his new house every night this week except Thursday. I'll have company overnight on Wednesday, and Thursday, despite being off work at 2pm, I'll have a crammed-full evening. Add to that the need to clear out a space to put the mill, plus the mundane tasks of eating, sleeping, dishes, laundry, bathing, eating, and cleaning..... Yeah. Tons and tons to get done. Next weekend, on Sunday, I'm just gonna get up whenever the heck I feel like it, pour myself a Vodka and Orange Juice Breakfast Cocktail, plaster myself into an Adirondack chair by the fire pit, and watch some scrap wood burn. Possibly most of the day. I'll deserve it. :)

Rest assured, I'm placing safety over expense in moving this machine. I've already decided, if it wants to fall over, it can fall over, and I'll pick up the pieces. $45 is a hit for not much work on the breaker's part, but it's safer than trying to use the engine hoist. Pipe rollers and a pig bar will let me move it around, and the hoist will help me get it over the slight (1/2") step into the garage.

More to come as things work themselves out, but remember, I'll be busy as heck. And one happy, lucky SOB.
 

Mark in Indiana

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#6
Congratulations! Can't wait to see the pictures.
 

master of none

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#7
Nice going Ogberi if you need help or the use of a 16' trailer let me know I think I owe you one.Rick
 

ogberi

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#8
Well, the mill is now sitting on the ground, smack in the middle of my driveway. :)
20160311_071434.jpg

From what I have gathered, it's a 1D model. Not sure how much it actually weighs, but it's a lot. This evening, when I eventually get home, I'll clear out a temporary space for it in the garage and work on getting it inside. I may have to remove the ram and head to get enough clearance to the garage door for the engine hoist to be able to be used.

It's worth noting that the X feed motor is 110v 3 phase. I haven't pulled the electrical cover, but I would surmise that a stepdown transformer off the incoming 240v 3ph mains provides that power. So, I need to decide if I want to use a single RPC to run the whole machine, or invest in two VFD's (one for the spindle, the other for X axis power feed).

An RPC would simplify things, as it would just have to be sized to run the whole machine. Not sure how a transformer would like the output, though. Two VFD's is more expensive, but since the head is already variable speed, and the X axis motor has 9 speed settings, they would probably both be run at their rated speed.

At any rate, my first task is to get the thing into the garage. After that, I'll figure out what to do next.
 

Mark in Indiana

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#9
Looks like you'll have a lot of fun. Congratulations.
 

ogberi

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#10
So, last night i got home around 8:45, changed clothes and proceeded to see if my horrible freight hoist could budge that mill. The definitive answer is a resounding "hell no!" i get the not so subtle feeling that thing weighs at or more than a ton. The 4500 lb rated forklift it was loaded with grunted pretty good when he picked it up, and the hoist was loaded more than i liked, even with the front corners of the mill still on the ground.

So, I stepped back, re-evaluated, and decided to divide and conquer. I made careful notes of the wiring, tagged the wires, then removed the head from the ram and got that safely in the garage. By then, it was 3:30 am, and i was beat. So I put my things away and called it a night. Morning? Whatever. :)

Today, i'm helping my brother and sister in law move (the joys of owning a pickup truck!), and once that's done i'll slide back home and work on removing the knee. That should lighten it enough so the hoist can comfortably handle the base. The fun will be reassembling it in the garage with limited head room.
 

Mark in Indiana

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#11
Ogberi,
I know it's a little late now, but do you have access to a 5500# pallet jack? That's what I used to get my mill in the garage. To get over the transition between the driveway and floor, I used a couple of 1/8" x 6" pieces of flat stock with the ends ground down. I estimate mine to weigh 4800# without accessories.
 

ogberi

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#12
Hi All,

Well, it's in large pieces, but the mill is in the garage. I ended removing the head from the ram, and the knee/saddle/table assembly from the base to give me three easier to handle pieces. Because I have a quantity of the heavy ratcheting straps, I used lifting rings and left the straps on the parts. Makes things a lot easier when getting ready to put it back together.

This week I'll clear out the space the mill will live in, and work on getting the base into it's desired location. Given my work and home schedule, that'll probably take the entire week to accomplish. :/ At least on Sunday this weekend, my brother is coming up to help me get the mill re-assembled. Which will be nice because things always come apart easily, getting them back together is much more fuss. At least I'll have the opportunity to thoroughly clean the machine, though I know it'll need adjusted and trammed once it's in place and leveled.

Some questions - (and yep, I'm gonna google and youtube search on these later this evening, so I may answer them on my own)

The mill has two 3 phase motors on it. One for the spindle (2hp), and one for the X axis power feed (??? hp) The X axis motor uses a 3 phase step down transformer from 240 to 120V, fed by the incoming mains. I'd rather not use an RPC for the machine, and static converters don't really thrill me because of the loss of power once the motor is running. So it looks like a pair of VFD's, one 2hp unit for the head, another (probably 1/3-1/2hp) for the X axis. I haven't been able to read the motor plate on the X axis, can another Cincinnati own help out there?

I have the parts and service manual for my mill, but it doesn't cover any of the basic operations, such as how to use the power downfeed on the quill. I'm pretty sure I can figure it out once the machine is powered, but even sitting unpowered, I can't get the quill fine-feed to engage. It looks like the previous owner was into the feed housing, so I may table that until the mill is re-assembled and I have time to mess with it. Might require digging into the power feed housing and seeing if it was mis-assembled or missing parts.

How exactly does the 40 taper unlock on these machines? I'd prefer to know before I go Gorilla-Torquing anything trying to pop it loose. The manual doesn't even touch on that.

I'm sure I'll have more questions as I get further along in making this machine run again. :)
 

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#13
How exactly does the 40 taper unlock on these machines? I'd prefer to know before I go Gorilla-Torquing anything trying to pop it loose. The manual doesn't even touch on that.
That almost looks like an Erickson spindle. Can you get some close up pictures?
 

Mark in Indiana

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#14
Ogberi,
I have (2) 3 phase motors on mine. One for the vertical spindle motor and one for the main motor that powers the horizontal spindle and the XYZ table movement. The vertical spindle speed is controlled by a potentiometer. The other motor VFD is set close to it's normal running speed. Although (2) VFDs ain't cheap, it's well worth it.
 

ogberi

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#15
Unfortunately, the spindle closeups will have to wait a little bit. :( The head is on cribbing on the floor, and not photogenic at the moment. But, the more I look at the collets, the more it looks like an ER collet vs the proprietary ones. Snaps into the nut, right shape, and definitely an adapter in the spindle.

Yesterday evening I carefully scooted the base into it's spot. This mill takes up a fair amount of room. I left about 4" between the fully retracted ram and the wall, in case I want to put up pegboard and still need to run the ram all the way back.

A question on VFDs, is it okay to power them down or to idle, then flip the breaker on them? I'd rather not mess with the factory 3ph wiring, and just wire the motors directly to the VFDs, bypassing the on-board mill controls, and mount the control panels remotely from the units.
 

JimDawson

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#16
A question on VFDs, is it okay to power them down or to idle, then flip the breaker on them? I'd rather not mess with the factory 3ph wiring, and just wire the motors directly to the VFDs, bypassing the on-board mill controls, and mount the control panels remotely from the units.
Yes, I would say that is the proper way to shut down a VFD. Wiring the VFD directly to the motor is the correct way to do it. I normally leave my VFDs (and computers) powered up just to keep them warm and dry. You could do a little rewiring and use the existing buttons to control the VFD(s), or just build a new control panel that better fits your needs.

I am used to reaching up to the left side of the head to turn the spindle on and off, so I just mounted my VFD in place of the original factory switch. Someday I'll finish my control panel and put the VFD controls in it.........someday:rolleyes:

upload_2016-3-15_8-12-23.png
 

ogberi

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#17
I was thinking of mounting the vfd units on the wall, and the controls on the left side of the head, via a clamp on the back dovetails of the ram and a bar coming towards the front. So long as I can get at the ram adjusting stud and head tilt stud, I'm fine with it. But should I reverse the spindle with the spindle mounted factory switch, or the vfd, or does it not matter? Either way the motor would reverse. Is it verboten to use a drum switch between the vfd and motor? The docs I've read so far don't specify.
 

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#18
The VFD will do a fine job of controlling ON/OFF, FOR/REV. You want to wire the VFD direct to the motor with no switch in between, VFDs don't like to be disconnected from the motor.

With some rewiring, you could use the original drum switch to control the VFD control terminals. Switching the motor output terminals may or may not reverse the motor rotation depending on the VFD.
 

Glenn Brooks

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#19
Probably a good thing you disassembled to move it into the garage. It looks way top heavy. When I moved my van Norman - using an engine hoist- and only a couple of inches off the ground, the slightest shove caused it to do a header. Doesn't take much to disturb the center of balance on these old machines.
 

ogberi

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#20
Still busy as heck, but the machine is in place and reassembled.
I have yet to level and tram it, but am not surprised at how much room it takes up. Next up is planning and running electric. I was going to put up some industrial shelving on the wall where the mill now resides, but those plans have changed. I may cut down the shelves to reduce the span (already cut them down to reduce the depth), because I could really use the vertical storage. But, I still have to fit a floor standing drill press, and some other odds and ends in here.

Further inspection of the mill revealed it uses ER50 collets, which seem to be fairly hard to come by in imperial sizes, and pricey as heck. I need to track down some NS40 tooling, as well. Big-boy tooling carries big-boy pricing, as I am finding out.

Yep. There's an NS40 to ER50 adapter in it now. Takes up to 1 1/8" shank tooling. Seriously beefy.

Won't get much done this weekend, have to muck out the chicken coop, some domestic chores, then off to a friend's house till tomorrow evening. I do hope to get some accomplished this coming weekday evenings. At the least, I want to get my shop arrangement planned out. It was fine before I bought that big honkin' mill, but now it doesn't work so well. Worth it, though.

I have decided to go with 2 VFDs on the mill. While Automation Direct gets a lot of mentions, that's about $500 worth of drives to buy. Is it a waste of time to mess with the Ebay Chinese Drives?

Can't wait for first chips!
 

ogberi

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#21
Hi All,

Been awhile, been busy with Life, and a chronic shortage of money has kept me from doing anything much with this machine.

Good news is that my finances are loosening up a bit, and I should be able to get it running in the next month or so. Yeah, it's sat where it sits since I got it in place in March. I've decided to go with an RPC for the machine. VFD's would be nice, but I wouldn't use most of the features on them. The spindle speed is infinitely adjustable with a hand crank, has Hi-Lo, and is reversible with the switch on the mill. The X axis power feed has 9 speeds, which should be enough. I think the only thing it lacks is a rapid, but that's no big deal.

I know the mill has a 2hp spindle, but the plate for the X axis power feed motor is missing. Can another owner let me know what the specs on it are? 1hp? Fractional hp? Since the mill was running when I picked it up, I have no worries about that, and I have diagrams of the wiring, I'm not concerned about hooking it up wrong (6 wires to connect), but I do worry about getting too small of an RPC. Don't want to waste money on too large of one, either. I'm looking at either a 3hp or 5hp RPC, leaning towards the 5 in case I get more 3 phase equipment.

Thanks!
 

ogberi

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#22
Well, life just got a whole lot busier.

But, busy in a good way.. The parts for my Harley should show up late next week or beginning of the week after.. I have to take a look at a pressure washer, figure out if the pump is shot or what, there's always domestics to be done around the house, and now I have to plan & run electric over by the mill for the shiny new RPC that my GF told me to buy. I feel a bit like a heel, for spending a lot of $$$ in such a short time, but she insisted. I knew she was a keeper before, but that she actually encourages my hobby?!

My next major purchase is that full set of ceramic kitchen knives I know she's been eyeballing.
 

Chipper5783

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#23
I have a Cinci 1D (see my posts in the Cinci section). I found a manual some place on line. I can send you a copy. I have the same power requirements as you, I run my shop off a 5hp RPC. You are correct an RPC is the way to go if you have multiple machine (I have 7 on the RPC and one on a VFD). The power set up with an RPC is just so easy (after the first machine). I had the Toolmaster running about 15 minutes after it was in place (took me about a year to get around to cleaning it and getting it over to where I wanted it, but that is a nother story). I can send you a picture of the table motor nameplate.

VFD? I cannot really see the benefit, when you already have a Reeves drive (well, then you could go very slow!). I have one VFD machine, and it works fine. The RPC machines work fine too.

I really enjoy using the Toolmaster. The only other mill I have used is the small Maho mill, and it is much different. They are both milling machines, but they cannot really be compared. They are both capable machines that are a joy to operate. There are plenty of well made milling machines out there - the Toolmaster certainly qualifies as one of them.

Good luck on getting everything sorted out in your shop and with that machine. For any questions you have myself and other folks here will do their best to answer them.

Take care, David
 

Chipper5783

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#24
Table motor pictures. Hopefully the image quality is okay. Send me your e-mail and I can provide jped images, which may zoom in better.
 

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ogberi

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#25
Hi All,

As expected, it's been busy as heck. But!

The shiny new TEMCo 3kW RPC arrived safe & sound. It's a beefy little thing, and looks simple as heck to hook up. All the rest of the Harley parts arrived at the same time, so other than a quick look-over, the RPC is sitting on the floor by the mill. Been putting my bike back together. :)

Good news is that I have what I need to run the electric outlets for the mill and some extra 120v outlets for other stuff. Hopefully I won't have any issues getting the wires run and everything hooked up. Getting a little bit closer to making chips!
 

ogberi

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#26
It Lives!

Over the weekend, I got the electrical run. I hooked up the RPC and checked it, and everything looks good there. Today, I wired up the mill and fired it up since the first time I got it. Some things to fix (which I knew going in), but it does what it's supposed to. The variable speed head is causing me a little grief, but it works fine in low range. Grabbed a 1/2" carbide endmill and hogged a 1/2" deep, 3/8" wide cut in aluminum. The mill didn't even notice. It's a world of difference between the 300lb Atlas, my friend's 2000 lb Wells Index, and this *thing.*

Still some stuff to fix on it. The downfeed simply freewheels, and the power downfeed spins the handle, but doesn't feed. The X axis power feed doesn't feed in the highest range, and I need to adjust the Hi-Lo shifter for the head (it grinds the gear in high speed unless you hold the lever upwards).

Minor things, mostly pull things apart, clean, check, re-assemble, and that'll keep me busy for a bit.

But the major thing is that it's got power, it works, and I can machine on it.

Whoooboy can I machine on it. That thing spins a 1" endmill and eats aluminum like cotton candy.

What I can tell you is that I do *NOT* like moving that big 'ole vice around. Thing weighs an appreciable portion of what I do, and I ain't throwing my back out for a vice.

So in short, *WOOHOO!* I'm gonna go turn some scrap into smaller scrap and chips!
 

Uglydog

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#27
ogberi & Chipper5783,
Good work. Another Cincy save!!
I've been quietly watching your progress.

Should the pf (powerfeed) ever die (motor, gears strip, whatever) etc and you "upgrade" to a servo. Then please let me know.
My Cincy is only a 1hp 1B not big and all fancy like yours and olcopper, regardless, I've been looking for an OEM pf for several years.
Please note I'm not suggesting that you do an "upgrade". As I'm not sure that it will really be an upgrade. Merely if you do, then I'll buy your old pf.

Daryl
MN
 
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Chipper5783

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#28
Good job ogberi - keep the updates coming. Please post pictures when you get your first real project done.

The downfeed free wheels? Do you mean the drill press style handle on the right side of the head? Mine has an engage / disengage feature - I have to loosen a locking screw ("thumb screw") then bump it left (or right, I'm not sure which) and in about a 1/4 turn it will engage and function like a drill press handle.

Good luck, David
 
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