CnC build help

NJS Custom

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About 3 weeks ago now, I purchased a cnc second hand. It appears as if it was some kind of kit by keling. I have gone through everything and re wired, made sure everything is good. I am using Windows Xp pro, mach3 and using the parallel port, but it seems as if the computer is not communicating with the cnc. The cnc has power, the motors are locking up but it will not jog. I'm not a super computer guy, but can get myself into trouble, but after messing with this for 3 weeks I have decided to come get some help. Thanks Nick!
 

brino

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Hi Nick,

Welcome to the site!

First, I have little hands-on experience with home-shop CNC.
However, one thing that would help get some answers to your questions are a few more details.....

Have you checked the outputs of all the power supplies with a voltmeter?
What type of controller does it use? Can you supply any more detail .....is there a name on the controller?
Did the WinXP PC come with the machine, or did you provide it? I'd imagine it would need some drivers to be able to talk to the motor controllers.

I assume this is the website: http://kelinginc.net/
Can you point us to exactly which controller you have?
Is it one of these: http://kelinginc.net/StepperMotorDriver.html
Oh wait, I see they have a new web site, is it one of these:https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/cnc-3_axis_4_axis_kits/

Maybe generating some traffic on this thread will get it seen by people with more experience.

Good Luck!
-brino
 

NJS Custom

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Hello Bruno,
Thank you for the welcome.

Here is some more details I hope will help, I supplied the computer and downloaded the drivers, I am pretty sure of this.
Ok so all of the components are Keling tech or at least what I have found says so. The power supply is a KL-350-36 I have metered it and it is supplying 64.6 v to the Keling-4030 controllers(there are 3 of them x,y,z.) it also has 5.22 v going into the pul+, it has5.22 go in into the dir+. It also has 3.76 at the pul- and the dri-. At the c10 parallel port interface card it has at pin2 -7, 3.75v. This is not hooked up to the computer with these readings. On the parallel port of the computer pin2 in reading 4.63v and goes to 4.64 when the arrow is pressed on the keyboard. Pin3 is reading .18v and when the narrowest is pressed it goes to 4.87v. Pin4 and pin6 are the same as pin2, and pin5 and pin7 are the same as pin3. The motors are KL-23h276-30-8B. Yes I have visited Keling techs website and followed there diagrams. Unfortunately the people I bought it from had no info or paperwork, so I am going by what I can find online. Hope this is what you were talking about. Any help would be greatly appreciated,
Nick
 

Cadillac STS

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If the drives are “locking up” then they have power to them. Have you gone through the motor tuning in Mach3? You need to let Mach 3 know what signals the motors need. Search Mach 3 setup.
 

coherent

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It sounds like it's either the motor tuning/settings like Cadillac already mentioned or the motor wiring is incorrect. If I'm reading correctly you said that the power supply was providing 64 volts at the drivers? I believe the 4030 drivers are 24-40v. There are also dip switches on the drivers so make sure your micro step settings (and subsequent mach steps per) are correct and your current settings are correct for your motors (2.7amps for the motors you listed). The 64 volts issue would be the place I'd start, as the power supply you list is a 36v 9.7 amp supply. Hopefully not, but the drivers could be fried.
 

NJS Custom

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Thank you guys for the help, I will re run the motor tuning again as I have not done it after I reinstalled Mach 3 yesterday. I had to take a step back from this thing!!!
Coherent,
Agreed I need to figure out why it was running so high! Yesterday day was the first time It was at 64v. When I metered it before it was 36v, so don't.know what happened.
This thing has been a cluster from the get go! The person who originally did the wiring had little spots of solder connecting the main power to a plug in the unit. It has been crazy.
thanks again,
Nick
 

NJS Custom

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So the power supply is shot! May have been one of the problems. I am hoping that it did not fry the controllers. If it did do any of you guys know if these would be a good replacement? (CNC Single Axis 4A TB6600 2/4 Phase Hybrid Stepper Motor Drivers Controller) they are on ebay, and for the price for 5 of them,I hope they will do the job.
 

NJS Custom

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Replaced the power unit, and we're at 36v. I also bought a uc100 installed it with all of the drivers. Tried to tune the motors and nothing, no movement at all. I metered the break out board while moving the velocity slider and it is at a constant 3.74v should it be this way? Stopped pressing the buttons and it's still at 3.74v, is it a defective break out board, or am I missing something? Any help would be great.
 

spumco

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Need you to back up a bit to help with troubleshooting. Turn off the motor drive DC power supply for now so you don't fry something. We'll work with signals first, then see if we can get the motors rolling.

Computer - XP
Control software - Mach3 + UC100 Plugin
UC100 motion controller
BOB - brand?

You do have the UC100 plugin installed and enabled, right? 'Cause this HAS to happen before anything will work.

Next thing to do is see if Mach3 is communicating with the UC100. Don't worry yet about if the BOB is communicating with the motor drives. The UC100 plugin should have a diagnostics page where you can keyboard-jog and see if the LEDs are triggering the step/direction ports/pins.

If not, you need to get in touch with CNCDrive (via their excellent forum) and they or one of the forum members will help you set up the Mach3/UC100 plugin so that Mach3 is communicating with the UC100 properly. I have a UC400ETH controller, but I use UCCNC software and not Mach3 (it's better than Mach, BTW) so I don't know what Mach3 looks like after the UC100 plugin is installed.

If Mach3 is communicating with the UC100 (step/direction SCREEN LED's are blinking on/off as you keyboard jog), then you need to see if the BOB is passing the step direction signals to the motor drivers. Does your BOB have LEDs on it to indicate signals? If so, you should see the LED's light up and turn off when you keyboard jog an axis. If not, then we'll need more info about the BOB before sticking a meter on some of the pins.
 

spumco

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OK, just saw you have C10 BOB, right?

The C10 user manual is available at CNC4PC under the BOB section. If you haven't already, download it and the sample wiring diagrams and check that your C10 is wired like the examples.

(see 6.2 in the user manual)

My first inclination is that you may not have the ENABLE pin/switch triggered. If the power LED is on, but the STATUS LED is off, then no amount of fiddling is going to send signals to the motor drives until you send 5vdc to the "EN" pin. That one is usually connected to E-stop button or some other mechanical switch or relay (not controlled by the PC/Mach3/UC100).

Check that wiring and if it looks good, put a volt meter between the "5V" and "GND" pins. You should see around 5VDC. Then put the meter on "EN" and "GND" and see if you have 5VDC. If not, then it's not hooked up right or you have a bad switch somewhere.
 
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NJS Custom

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Spumco,
There is no status led on this board only power. I did meter the board and 5v to the power and En pin. The diagnostic for mach and the uc100 shows everything is working correctly. I have followed all instructions to a T with all of this. I am wondering if it has anything to do with the jump pins on this board should it be set to pull up or down? Should there constantly 3.74v to the breakout board pins all the time? Thank you for your help so far.
Nick
 

spumco

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Nick,

If it's a C10 BOB, then there's a red power LED and a green status LED. If there's only one LED, then maybe you could take a pic of the BOB and post it? If it's a C10 BOB with only one LED, then it's an earlier version than the user manual indicates.

-Spumco
 

spumco

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Well, color me embarrassed. Here's a paste from the CNC4PC C10 page:

Please note that we have currently updated the design of the board. We use the exact same circuits, just updated to newer and smaller componets, updated the manufacturing process to SMD and added and status LED, so now it has a green LED that will light when outputs are enabled. Note that on the new design we updated the connector to female. If a gender genger is required, please request it.


So yea, you've only got one LED if it's an older board.

Next step...

How are the jumpers configured?
 

coherent

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If you can check which revision of the C10 you have and if possible post a diagram of all of your wiring, pin settings and mach port and pin settings folks may be able to help track down the issue a lot easier and faster. I have about 3 of the c10 boards and a uc100 as well so may be able to offer some advice. Personally I'd stick with a basic mach 3 setup wiothout the uc100 to start with and make sure you can get that working, then deal with adding more to the mix. The common terminals on the breakout board (2-9) can be set (and the motors wired) for either ground or +5 commons for the signals. The settings have to match the way it is wired. There is also an enable pin on the C10 which requires 5v + to enable all the outputs. You can simply put a jumper on this from a 5+ on the board. Anyway, a lot of little things could be the issues and hard to troubleshoot without seeing how everything is wired and set. Downloading and studying the user manual and any applicable wiring diagrams would be a good place to start. Disconnect any limit or home switches etc for now if you have any. Just concentrate on getting the motors turning. Once you are sure all the wiring and BoB/Driver pins and dip settings are correct, Then its time to make sure all of the port and pin settings in Mach (or UCCNC ) are correct.

If can be a bit confusing when first getting into the electronics and settings, but once you get a handle on it it's not too difficult. One incorrect setting in mach or on a jumper pin can cause headaches so it's just a matter of double/triple checking everything as outlined in the manuals and wiring diagrams. In case you aren't already aware, never connect or disconnect your stepper motors while the BoB or driver are powered up... you will fry stuff pretty easily by doing so. I've bought a few of the cheap drivers you mention and breakout boards from ebay and built a machine for a friend. They worked just fine and are still working fine today after about 1 1/2 years on a 3x4 ft router. They aren't the best, but replacement drivers etc are cheap, so easy to just have a couple backups on hand.
 
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NJS Custom

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Spumco,
Its definitely an older board. Some other info I discovered is it is a c10 rev10. The jumpers are set as follows: the in out is set to out, the com is set to find, pun2-9 are set to pull up, and the input is set to pull down. Also I pulled all the wires to the controllers, so it just had the power, EN, and Gnd, hooked up and it still had 5.35v, to all of the pins 2-9, I then hooked the parallel cable and it stayed the same even when I tried to jog the x,y,z access. I am thinking the breakout board is shot. All of the video and things I have read said it should have no voltage until it is jogged. Again thanks for the help!
Nick
 

NJS Custom

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Coherent,
I have download all the manuals and have rewired everything correctly. The person who originally built this unit did a bad job, so I had to learn about everything about this machine from the ground up, in the long run it was a blessing in disguise! It is a little confusing, I do have some electronics experience so I am not totally lost. I could definitely see the settings in mach being confusing, it's totally possible they could not be set correctly, but I think they are I did the status page in mach for the UC100 and it said the pins were being jogged when I was pushing the buttons, so I am assuming it's all set up correct.
I am glad to hear those units on ebay will work! At this point I am more concerned about being functional and productive right now, I will worry about getting better stuff later, once I have figured all of this out.
Thank you for the info. I ordered a new Bob and will try to see how things work out tomorrow, if it still does not work I will post pics of how mach is set up.
Thank you,
Nick
 

spumco

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Nick,

Sounds like you've got a good plan for a new BOB. And I'll defer to Coherent - while I've got some experience troubleshooting hobby CNC, it sounds like he's got much more specific experience that's right up your alley.

I'll follow along and chime in if it'll be helpful.

-S
 

NJS Custom

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Spumco,
Sounds good, thanks for the help! Am I right in assuming there should be no voltage at the pins when nothing is hooked up? That is why I ordered the new board. From all my electric knowledge it seems there is something wrong with it.
Nick
 

NJS Custom

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Ok, guys I installed the new breakout board. On pin 2 (step) it is .13v when I hit the arrow key it goes to .14v. On pin 3 (dir) it is at 0v and goes to 5 v. I am assuming something is not configured in mach3. I played around with the active low and such and nothing has changed. Hooked up the motors just to see and nothing.
I don't what to do at this point except go through the set up again, which I will do tonight, I have a feeling it's not going to help but who knows. If you guys have any ideas I would really appreciate it! At least I know my board is functional!!
Nick
 

NJS Custom

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Hey guys,
Oh man, oh man! Got this thing working!!! I just want to thank all of you guys for your help and input!! I ended up going through the set up again and it worked! It was a bad breakout board. Just glad it is fixed. Now on to the fun stuff. One other quick question: can you set a home area, without a home/limit switch in mach3? Basically a corner or the center of the table the machine can start at every time.
 

brino

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Nick, Congratulations. I knew you'd figure it out.
 

coherent

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Glad you got it working. Homing actually looks for a home switch on each axis to set the machine to zero (or your offset). You can zero each axis manually and the set limits for each axis in the software though without switches.
 

Boswell

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NJS, congratulations on getting it working. While I have homing switches on my mill I almost never use them. I feel they would be critical if you had an automatic tool changer or you did fixture based production. But for one-off parts, I just zero each axis to the part that I am working on.
 

coherent

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Like boswell said they are rarely used , but limit switches or setting the machine zero to the same point with every use and having the soft limits set in Mach may save a crash. If you don't have any limits or home switches, and you are working on a piece that may require a cut near the limits of an axis just make sure you jog to the extents of your cut envelope to make sure you won't exceed the limits of any axis during a cut process. If you do this you should never have a problem... get in a rush and forget to do so and ... well you can guess. A crash can be pretty hard on the end mill, steppers, couplings etc.
 

Boswell

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Home switches I don't use but LIMIT Switches are Critical. Many times I have been working on the edge and tripped a limit switch or even had a bug in my G-Code and triggered a limit switch. If you exceed a limit while moving slow it is possible that the steppers will just skip when it hits a hard stop but if it were to happen when you were in Rapid movement the mass of the table could cause some serious damage. Much more than the cost of some limit switches. I would NOT recommend using a CNC machine without a limit switch to protect your investment.
 

NJS Custom

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Hey guys,
Thanks for the info. I will look into getting some limit switches. Just in case.
Now I need to learn how to use cad.
Thanks again for all the help.
Nick
 

Boswell

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Regarding CAD there are some great ones that cost $$ like Autocad and Solidworks some less $ that various people have recommended over time. The best CAD system is the one you can afford and that you get lots of practice/experience with. I am using a 2012 version of Autocad. I have heard lots of good things about Fusion 360. It is apparently free for hobby users and has the advantage that there is a CAM module that is built in or available also for free.
 

NJS Custom

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Hey guys,
here goes I build custom pool cues and normally do all my inlays by hand or with an pantagraph. So I was wondering if you guys know of any good tutorials for mach3 that go in detail on how to do inlays? Also any tutorials that would go into how to make a cylinder that tapers . I figured out how to make multiple faces on a cylinder, just trying to make it a bit easier on my self.
Thanks
Nick
 

Boswell

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While there are a lot of tutorials on youtube for Mach 3, what you are asking about seams more in the CAD and CAM area. Working on a cylinder is typically done using a "4th Axis". Forgive me if you already understand this. A 4th axis is a rotary chuck that is controlled via Mach3. To make use of it, and pretty much any CNC you need to design the work in CAD then use a CAM package to translate that to G-Code then Mach3 takes the G-Code to tell the motion controllers what to do. You can skip the CAD and CAM steps if you want to hand-code the G-Code but that can be quite a job for complex parts.
 

spumco

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Hey guys,
Thanks for the info. I will look into getting some limit switches. Just in case.
Now I need to learn how to use cad.
Thanks again for all the help.
Nick
You can use your limit switches as "home" switches in Mach - there's a setting for that somewhere. The point of having a home switch, even if it's not super-repeatable, is that once there is a home position stored in the controller as G53 (machine) coordinate, you can then use macros to drive automated stuff. Like having parking positions that aren't dependent on the various G54-G5x work offsets.

For example, I've set a "Park 1" to have the table be all the way forward and centered for loading/unloading. "Park 2" is centered and most of the way back for washing chips off the table & parts. "Park 3" is centered in Y, and mostly left as I have my 4th axis on the right side. I use this as a way to get over quickly to indicate a gauge pin in the 4th. "Park 4" is similar, but for a fixture plate reference hole on my trunnion table.

There are also macros and functions which use a Z-home, such as auto tool-length plates. Also useful for setting the top of the Z-travel during 'safe' retract moves.

As far as the pool cues go, I think your best bet is to taper them on a lathe and then do the inlays on a 4th axis. If you raise your tailstock (offset the small end by half the total taper amount) you'll wind up with a surface which is parallel to the table. The patterns will then all be a the same Z-height.

If you're doing work near the handle end then the patterns won't be too far off. But this will work only for 'indexed' stuff - i.e. not wrapped around the handle circumference.

However, if you think you're going to do something complicated that wraps around the thing, then the decreasing diameter will require CAM and a cue held straight along the rotational axis. The CAM will figure out the decreasing diameter and adjust Z-height appropriately.
 
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