Colchester Chipmaster Restoration

[TorontoBuilder]

My thoughts on the refinishing process (yes I am a planner)

Since the Chipmaster has a great splash guard, a deep rear well and already had a coolant system in it I'll be using coolant when turning some of my precision work. I've seen that state of the machine and there are plenty of chips out of the finish, gross flaking from filler letting go of the base metal, and spots where the paint, primer and filler have been entirely worn through.

That means pretty much a complete strip down to the base metal will be required in order to start fresh with a new finish that can last another 55 years.

I'm aiming for a quality finish without going totally professional on the application and high end materials side of things.

My thought is to go with two coats of rattle can applied zinc chromate primer on the base metal to provide corrosion protection, a good base for applying fillers, and a matt surface that will allow me to judge where I need to apply thick filler to porosities in the casting and to assess where there will be a benefit of using a thin filler material prior to the next steps.

After the primer and filler application I'll use both a three step finish of:

Four coats of two pack cold cure epoxy high build MIO paint to achieve a dry film thickness of about 700 microns

Two or more coats pearl automotive base coat paint

Application of new labels, gearing charts etc, decals

Two or more coats of urethane enamel clear coat

Thinking this colour scheme orange main, purple contrast and matte black on the inside of the chip tray and sump.

Not sure what that will mean for the original signage plates

 

[TorontoBuilder]

Is the tool holder an original Dickson ? I thought they were imperial. There are clones out there and I don't know if metric sizes came later. I do know that the adjusters between Dickson and clones can be different in the thickness of the collar that tightens against the post. Dickson's tended to be thicker than Algra for instance so a Dickson adjuster needs to be ground down to fit an Algra. Dave

Not having seen an original from the 1960s I could not say. I can state that the tool holders appear to be circa 1960. The bottom is thicker and more rigid on mine. The finish is basic though. I cleaned these up just enough to retouch them on the surface grinder.

So if anyone know what the original dickson tool holders look like I'd be interested to hear from you.

Mine surprised me in how one part was made, and how the manufacturer chose to grind only the necessary surfaces and even then only to the bare minimum to attain a fit within their tolerances. Other faces are left raw from what appears to me to have been a lathe facing/parting operation and a rough cut end mill.


Toolholder bottom, medium grind.




The mating tapers, medium grind. The tee slot that mates with the piston, just raw milling. Height adjustment post is a split arrangement. That was unexpected. This remaining piece is stuck still.

The top of the holder, also has medium grind.






Ends... yeah not so much. Milled and faced






The front of the tool, also has medium grind on it

 

[TorontoBuilder]

Moving right along I've been able to get some photos and dimensions of the collet chuck cap/nut from a fine fellow Chris in Victoria BC.

His chuck looks pristine. So I know what to aim for.



I guess here is a time an optical comparator would actually come in handy... to determine what thread form these threads are.




On the inner surface of the cap/nut there is a mating slot that aligns with the collet and that prevents the cap from rotating while trying to tighten the collet.

There is a relief cut at the inner corner and a chamfer at the rear edge of the 52.25mm bore. These two features leave a narrow boss proud of the rear face of the nut that bears on a narrow portion of the collet...






The rough dimensions from Chris





The first order of the day is to make a crude test ring to determine the correct thread form and pitch. I think I have a piece of 3" schedule 80 pipe, or maybe 3" schedule 80 pvc pipe with an outside dimension of 88.9 that just might work for this despite being 1mm under the overall dimension. I'll just be shy of full height threads but it should be the root diameter that matters most.

I'm also tempted to try to 3D print a test cap out, but the thread forms are trick to reproduce properly with shrinkage and what may work in PLA may not work in reality. We shall see, since I'm creating a 3D model of the part in Fusion anyway.

Once I have what I think is the correct dimensions, form and pitch I'll buy enough hollow tool steel bar to make 3 replacement caps. One working cap, one back up cap and one to sell because this has to be a common problem.

Looking again at Chris' chuck I have to regrind mine to give it a refresh.

I'm thinking of painting the cap orange, and then I'll laser cut vinyl stencil masking film and use the purple paint to add my maker's mark to the face of the cap.

 

[TorontoBuilder]

SAD MAD UPDATE TIME

The other day I wrote to the seller of the rusted POS collet chuck. He did not bother to respond.

The following day I called him, and had a 5 minute discussion in which I committed to buying the chuck and collets sight unseen despite the seller telling me that the chuck was seized solid. I explained that these were no longer made (as far as I know they haven't been for a decade) and that I wanted to obtain the missing part for my chuck as part of a lathe restoration.

The seller responded that they were then worth more because they were no longer made. I said I think not and that greedy sellers have their over-priced chucks and collets sit unsold for years and gave him an example on ebay.ca.

I ended the conversation because he was working and kept interrupting to speak to an employee. At that time I reconfirmed that I will buy them and would be calling back to set a time to drive the long distance to pick them up as soon as I could make the time. He stated that he'd have the chuck waiting for me.

Today I went to message him to suggest that I could pick the chuck up tomorrow night after 8:00pm (because he is only available nights), and I saw that he had significantly raised the price of the chuck and collets 70% higher. I messaged him saying I see you've raised the price.. but I did not say that it appeared that he looked like he would not honour our deal or anything negative.

He replied right away... I wonder why? saying "I will honor the price for you if its still available. Come get it."

The thing is, guys like that will have you drive the long distance and then try to screw you demanding more money when you get there. And to state "If it is still available" is dishonourable and indicative of a person who wants to play games.

My reply to that was this:

"I've said I will buy it and am just swamped right now and have to find the time to get up there.

I was just drafting a note to you that if you've raised the price I'll buy a new 5C collet chuck instead for $369.

5C 5" Collet Chuck with Integral D1-3 Camlock Mounting, #0269-0013

The Accusize 5C Lathe Collet Chuck is commonly used as the following tools (and solutions): 5C Lathe Collet Chuck, 5c lathe collet chuck with 1 x 8 backing plate, etc.

accusizetools.com

I have multiple sets of 5C collets already that I use in my other lathe, my spindexer on the my bridgeport mill and will use in my Harig 5C grinding fixture on the surface grinder.

I did mention that these are no longer made, you took that to mean that they had greater value, but in fact they have less, because most people have completely stopped using this old style collet system due to lack of replacement collets. Those who are buying are usually looking for only that one missing from their old set. Like I'm trying to mainly get the replacement cap.

I merely wanted to keep my 1966 showpiece lathe complete with period hardware, but not if it costs more than I can afford. I sure don't intend to actually use vintage collets to machine things."

So, I cannot reward such people no matter how much I'd like to have the Pratt Burnerd KC15 chuck on the lathe. I'll be buying a 5C collet chuck for my actual machining efforts, and will make a new cap without the benefit of having an old rusty cap as an aide. I'll keep a single collet so I can mount the chuck when I'm not using it and it can look all period and pretty, but that's it.

 

[TorontoBuilder]

i'm pretty sure that mine is a Burnerd Multisize collet chuck with D1-3 mount. It takes EC collets. I'm missing the cap that draws the chuck closed. I hope I find that within the stuff, but I dont recall seeing it.

In case I dont see it, I hope someone can provide me with the information I need to make my own

I can confirm what I suspected. I'm surprised that under the grime lay the evidence that a 20 minute bath in the ultrasonic cleaner exposed.

"Burnerd"

 

[Beckerkumm]

I've learned the hard way that it is best to first get the machine running, assess the mechanics and then turn some stock, and see what precision the machine has over a reasonable range, say 6" or so. Test the tailstock and see if the barrel is tight and doesn't deflect much when the lock is tightened and see what the lathe turns using the TS . That information determines how anal I'll need to get with the bed and saddle which in turn determines how far to go with the paint. I need a machine to turn within a couple tenths before going to the PITA of a complete cosmetic restoration.

Dave

 

[TorontoBuilder]

I've learned the hard way that it is best to first get the machine running, assess the mechanics and then turn some stock, and see what precision the machine has over a reasonable range, say 6" or so. Test the tailstock and see if the barrel is tight and doesn't deflect much when the lock is tightened and see what the lathe turns using the TS . That information determines how anal I'll need to get with the bed and saddle which in turn determines how far to go with the paint. I need a machine to turn within a couple tenths before going to the PITA of a complete cosmetic restoration.

Dave

When I first saw it, I did an initial assessment without running it. Tested the carriage, the cross slide and compound which are all tight with minimal backlash and the lead screw and ways showed no sign of wear. That initial look was all I needed to say I'm buying this, not even knowing a price. I wanted more time to assess it further just to be able to set a reasonable price to offer the seller.

He forced my hand and implied that he'd accept a very unreasonable offer, so I made one. He accepted. For what I paid I wouldn't care if I had to replace the spindle bearings, but I know I dont have to....

From an earlier post:
"First stage will be providing temporary power in order to test everything... "

If anything really surprising showed up then I'd very very likely pay to address it since I got this for 5 times less than the last chipmaster I saw sell in Ontario, and that was at least four years ago.

Today I saw Rustoleum hammered copper paint in the home depot, I showed it to my brother and he was like "ew" Haha he'd die if he knew what I really had in mind

 

[TorontoBuilder]

I think there were two versions of the Matrix clutch used. I have a few parts for the 2.5 size so it will be interesting to see what model you have. There were two types of wet plates used on lathes that I've seen. The Smart Brown used smooth copper plates and you could feather the clutch somewhat. Colchester ( at least some of the time ) used a rough finish cross hatched plate that grabbed quickly. I have a few of the rough plates if you find those are what you have- providing the size is correct. Ebay-UK is a place to watch for parts. Matrix still sells some clutch parts but as you can guess, very expensive.

Dave

Hey Dave,

I'm still waiting to hear those motor suggestions...

BTW I like a Smart & Brown lathe but I've never seen one in person despite trying. But I have been watching Keith Appleton's channel for a long while and enjoy his.

I do have a couple of opinions after my own conversion of a Taiwanese 12x37 lathe...

One is that I want the ability to take far heavier cuts than I'm used to making (I'm a timid machinist) if necessary. Two is that with the cam lock spindle I want to be able to stop the spindle on a dime and reverse very quickly. So I have decided that I'll use a Teco A510 heavy duty VFD and an external braking resister. I am wondering if I could use a lower horse power motor if I ditch the variator?

If I do that I guess I need to put a countershaft in it's place?

 

[Beckerkumm]

The motor choice is dependent on whether you keep the variator. If it is working properly, I'd keep it. Variable speed from a variator will deliver more torque at low speed than you will get from a vfd driven motor unless you upsize the motor. If I were swapping to a new motor, the size would be 3-5 hp as the frame sizes are the same-184. The machine was built for 3 hp as was my 1024. I have a 5 hp on it now but have the belt set a tad slack so it never delivers at full hp. Either size in an 1800 rpm would be fine for that machine. That size lathe accepts 5/8" tooling and I use a Multifiz A which is supposedly limited to 3hp. I run an E size on my CVA but the distance from the spindle to the compound allows use of 3/4" tooling. I don't know the relative capacity or power requirement for your S63 but that is a consideration. These machines are meant for finesse and while they will take a reasonable cut they aren't for hogging .02-.05 DOC is my range on steel.

With the variator you have little need for a wide speed range. My CVA which has gears has a Baldor ECP 5hp I found NOS ( two actually ) for $200 each. I plan to run it in the 40-90 hz range. If no variator, I'd want a Vector duty motor like a Baldor IDNM, ZDNM ( really expensive and seldom found for cheap ) Allen Bradley CM 202 ( same as Baldor IDNM 3665 ), or Marathon Black or Blue Max, etc. Those motors would need to run over a much wider range, 20-120 HZ. That is what is in the 1024.

I'd be a little careful stopping " on a dime ". D1-3 isn't as stout as a D1-4 and sudden stops are very hard on bearings. I think the newer Chipmasters had a brake that activated when the clutch was released but I don't know if yours has that. Mark set me up with two stage braking and while I like the faster stop- a couple of revolutions or so- I try to use the less quick stop most of the time. I believe it is easier on the vfd but that is above my pay grade.

Watch for deals on NOS motors. I paid 200-350 for the motors below and just bought a Black Max 10 hp for $200 today. Shipping is a killer now so factor 150-200 for that.

Dave

 

[TorontoBuilder]

The motor choice is dependent on whether you keep the variator. If it is working properly, I'd keep it. Variable speed from a variator will deliver more torque at low speed than you will get from a vfd driven motor unless you upsize the motor. If I were swapping to a new motor, the size would be 3-5 hp as the frame sizes are the same-184. The machine was built for 3 hp as was my 1024. I have a 5 hp on it now but have the belt set a tad slack so it never delivers at full hp. Either size in an 1800 rpm would be fine for that machine. That size lathe accepts 5/8" tooling and I use a Multifiz A which is supposedly limited to 3hp. I run an E size on my CVA but the distance from the spindle to the compound allows use of 3/4" tooling. I don't know the relative capacity or power requirement for your S63 but that is a consideration. These machines are meant for finesse and while they will take a reasonable cut they aren't for hogging .02-.05 DOC is my range on steel.

With the variator you have little need for a wide speed range. My CVA which has gears has a Baldor ECP 5hp I found NOS ( two actually ) for $200 each. I plan to run it in the 40-90 hz range. If no variator, I'd want a Vector duty motor like a Baldor IDNM, ZDNM ( really expensive and seldom found for cheap ) Allen Bradley CM 202 ( same as Baldor IDNM 3665 ), or Marathon Black or Blue Max, etc. Those motors would need to run over a much wider range, 20-120 HZ. That is what is in the 1024.

I'd be a little careful stopping " on a dime ". D1-3 isn't as stout as a D1-4 and sudden stops are very hard on bearings. I think the newer Chipmasters had a brake that activated when the clutch was released but I don't know if yours has that. Mark set me up with two stage braking and while I like the faster stop- a couple of revolutions or so- I try to use the less quick stop most of the time. I believe it is easier on the vfd but that is above my pay grade.

Watch for deals on NOS motors. I paid 200-350 for the motors below and just bought a Black Max 10 hp for $200 today. Shipping is a killer now so factor 150-200 for that.

Dave

All my comments are relative to how I operated my past lathe prior to converting it to vfd, which was timidly and cautiously because I constantly expected it to blow up or the chuck to unscrew when reversed. I dont plan to abuse my new one any.

One new wrinkle I just discovered, I can run the existing 400 volts 3 phase motor on a 230v VFD with the base frequency set to 29 hz.

This means that I can pop a VFD on the existing motor to immediately test the lathe without even removing the existing motor. This means I can proceed quicker with my assessments. I can get an idea of the torque a 230v 3 HP motor can deliver in conjunction with the variator at full speed if I were to change the motor rather than continue to operate with just a vfd with the 230v 29hz base frequency set up.

HowTo: 240V Supply to a 400V AC Motor - Application Detail



The question now is, do I "borrow" a cheap vfd from another machine, or buy a new one ?