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Coop's Canedy-Otto Cincinnati Royal 18

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CoopVA

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#1
Just picked up this drill press the other day from a VDOT (Virginia Department of Transportation) Maintenance Shop for $175.

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of historical data on the interwebs for this machine, but I do know that Canedy-Otto was acquired by Cincinnati Lathe and Tool in 1949. What I find interesting is that the Tag has the Canedy-Otto name on top and then at the bottom it says "Product of Cincinnati Lathe and Tool". It makes me think that this press was manufactured right before, or during the transition from Canedy-Otto to Cincinnati.

There is a tag on the side of the head casting from Tidewater Supply Company in Norfolk, who I assume was the dealer that sold the machine. This press very well could have started out at the Norfolk Naval Shipyard before it ended up at VDOT...

It is missing the motor pulley stack, there is only a single small pulley on the motor. It is also missing the table height adjustment rack and crank. There is a heavy duty retracting spring mechanism attached to the casting head and the end of the flat steel spring is bolted to the table collar. I can raise and lower and swing the table with one hand...

I plan on cleaning it up, installing a new motor with a VFD and using it. It will get restored at some point.

image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg
 
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mattthemuppet2

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#2
looks good! I really like those old style drill presses, everyone's a piece of garage art. Looking forward to the restoration.
 

CoopVA

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#3
looks good! I really like those old style drill presses, everyone's a piece of garage art. Looking forward to the restoration.
Thanks Matt. I love the Art Deco style of these older machines too.

I'll be ordering a VFD in a couple of days (Payday...) and see how it runs on the existing motor. I am going to wait to start the restore until after the garage is built this spring.
 

CoopVA

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#4
Upon closer examination of the motor, I think it needs new bearings. it sounds VERY rough just spinning it by hand. I am going to bite the bullet and buy a new motor matched to a VFD and work on the old motor at my leisure.
 

schor

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#5
Nice buy on that press. I too love the older presses. Getting a 6 step motor pulley might be hard to find but with the vfd you should be ok without one or a more common 4 step pulley.

Post some pics/vids as you go forward with this press please.
 

CoopVA

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#6
Nice buy on that press. I too love the older presses. Getting a 6 step motor pulley might be hard to find but with the vfd you should be ok without one or a more common 4 step pulley.

Post some pics/vids as you go forward with this press please.
Thanks, will do. I found plenty of 5 step pulleys that would work. I'm looking at a Maska MAS62x7/8 5-step 6"-5"-4"-3"-2".

So I'm putting a LOT of thought into this. Please bear with my rambling and feel free to comment...

I think I have the spindle pulley stack measured correctly from the bottom up: 10"-9"-8"-7"-6"-5"

Using an RPM calculator, I come up with these spindle speeds with an 1800 rpm motor at 60hz:

2" to 10" = 360 rpm
3" to 9" = 600 rpm
4" to 8" = 900 rpm
5" to 7" = 1286 rpm
6" to 6" = 1800 rpm

If I set the motor stack to the next one up it would look like this:

2" to 9" = 400 rpm
3" to 8" = 675 rpm
4" to 7" = 1028 rpm
5" to 6" = 1500 rpm
6" to 5" = 2160 rpm

Which is pretty close to what the press shows to be original spindle speeds (for an 1800 rpm motor. the speed chart on my press is for a 1200 rpm motor...), but doesn't get me to the 3000 rpm mark that I would need for some things...

What I wonder is, what would be the optimum belt position that I should use as the initial setting for when I set up the VFD? I would think I would want to be at the fastest speed at 60-70 hz setting. I don't think I want to go any more than 70hz on the motor.

Knowing that 60 Hz = 1800 RPM and that 1 Hz = 30 RPM and a motor to spindle ratio at 1:1.2 will give me 2160 RPM at 60 hz, I would have to be at 2500 rpm at the motor. 2500-1800=700 700/30=23.3333. 23.3+60=83.3

That would mean I would have to set the VFD to 83.3 hz to get to 3000 rpm at the spindle with the motor spinning at 2500 rpm. That's about 140% of the rated rpm...

Is that a good idea?

Anybody have any thoughts?




 
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schor

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I would be more concerned about how slow I can go, not how fast. I would check the motor with an rpm gauge, I doubt your running 1800rpm, most likely in the 1725 range. Use that for your calcs.
 
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CoopVA

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#8
I would be more concerned about how slow I can go, not how fast. I would check the motor with an rpm gauge, I doubt your running 1800rpm, most likely in the 1725 range. Use that for your calcs.
With the VFD I can go down to 1 rpm if I wanted to going slow is the easy part. It's the high speed that is of more concern to me.
 

schor

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You could go with a 3600rpm motor, it would run in the 3450 rpm range. What do you need to cut at 3000+ rpm?

Maybe you can use an extra pulley, I think I calculated mine would run max at around 20000rpm with this mod on a 1725 motor.

[video=youtube_share;bk9L0Dxe4ng]http://youtu.be/bk9L0Dxe4ng[/video]
 

Ray C

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#10
What do you need to drill at 3000 RPM? You doing dentistry? :LOL:

3000 RPM is really fast for drill press...


Ray




Thanks, will do. I found plenty of 5 step pulleys that would work. I'm looking at a Maska MAS62x7/8 5-step 6"-5"-4"-3"-2".

So I'm putting a LOT of thought into this. Please bear with my rambling and feel free to comment...

I think I have the spindle pulley stack measured correctly from the bottom up: 10"-9"-8"-7"-6"-5"

Using an RPM calculator, I come up with these spindle speeds with an 1800 rpm motor at 60hz:

2" to 10" = 360 rpm
3" to 9" = 600 rpm
4" to 8" = 900 rpm
5" to 7" = 1286 rpm
6" to 6" = 1800 rpm

If I set the motor stack to the next one up it would look like this:

2" to 9" = 400 rpm
3" to 8" = 675 rpm
4" to 7" = 1028 rpm
5" to 6" = 1500 rpm
6" to 5" = 2160 rpm

Which is pretty close to what the press shows to be original spindle speeds (for an 1800 rpm motor. the speed chart on my press is for a 1200 rpm motor...), but doesn't get me to the 3000 rpm mark that I would need for some things...

What I wonder is, what would be the optimum belt position that I should use as the initial setting for when I set up the VFD? I would think I would want to be at the fastest speed at 60-70 hz setting. I don't think I want to go any more than 70hz on the motor.

Knowing that 60 Hz = 1800 RPM and that 1 Hz = 30 RPM and a motor to spindle ratio at 1:1.2 will give me 2160 RPM at 60 hz, I would have to be at 2500 rpm at the motor. 2500-1800=700 700/30=23.3333. 23.3+60=83.3

That would mean I would have to set the VFD to 83.3 hz to get to 3000 rpm at the spindle with the motor spinning at 2500 rpm. That's about 140% of the rated rpm...

Is that a good idea?

Anybody have any thoughts?




 

CoopVA

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#11
If your drilling less than a 1/4" hole in aluminum, brass or bronze you do...

not that I'd be doing it often, but I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it...


What do you need to drill at 3000 RPM? You doing dentistry? :LOL:

3000 RPM is really fast for drill press...


Ray
 

Ray C

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#12
Just FYI: If you're doing production drilling and time is of great importance, then it's best to stick with the recommended RPMs for drilling. You can certainly get away with slower RPMs for most things if you're willing to go a little slower and peck the bit as you go.

I work more aluminum than I care to admit. My drill press is set at/around 500 RPMs and I can't really remember the last time I changed the belts to change the speed. Most of the holes I drill using the drill press are between 1/8 and 1/2". Anyhow, I don't know if that nice old drill press has roller bearings or babbit (sleeve) bearings... I don't think it will go super-nova on you if bend the rules but, as far as I know, most babbit bearings have pretty low RPM ratings.

Ray


If your drilling less than a 1/4" hole in aluminum, brass or bronze you do...

not that I'd be doing it often, but I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it...
 

CoopVA

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#13
Just FYI: If you're doing production drilling and time is of great importance, then it's best to stick with the recommended RPMs for drilling. You can certainly get away with slower RPMs for most things if you're willing to go a little slower and peck the bit as you go.

I work more aluminum than I care to admit. My drill press is set at/around 500 RPMs and I can't really remember the last time I changed the belts to change the speed. Most of the holes I drill using the drill press are between 1/8 and 1/2". Anyhow, I don't know if that nice old drill press has roller bearings or babbit (sleeve) bearings... I don't think it will go super-nova on you if bend the rules but, as far as I know, most babbit bearings have pretty low RPM ratings.

Ray
This drill, with a 1800 rpm motor, is set up to run at over 3000 rpm spindle speed from the factory. 3205 is what it's top speed is.

There are three sets of ball bearings. Two on the spindle shaft and one at the top of the pulley.
 
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CoopVA

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I would be more concerned about how slow I can go, not how fast. I would check the motor with an rpm gauge, I doubt your running 1800rpm, most likely in the 1725 range. Use that for your calcs.
Just picked up an Ideal hand held tach on EBay...
 

Cal Haines

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#15
With the VFD I can go down to 1 rpm if I wanted to going slow is the easy part. It's the high speed that is of more concern to me.
At anything close to 1 RPM you're not going to have any torque.

Cal
 

CoopVA

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#16
At anything close to 1 RPM you're not going to have any torque.

Cal
i know that. It was my sarcastic answer to this...

I would be more concerned about how slow I can go, not how fast. I would check the motor with an rpm gauge, I doubt your running 1800rpm, most likely in the 1725 range. Use that for your calcs.
 

CoopVA

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#17
The new motor and VFD arived today!

Now I have to figure out how to mount the motor to the press. The holes are so close but not good enough. I think I can remove material at the motor bracket and still be safe to operate.

Take a look at this and let me know if this is a bad idea:

Motor Mount-Work.jpg

Motor Mount-Work.jpg
 

CoopVA

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#18
After some thought and advice from a friend, I took a rat tail file to the motor base mount and elongated the holes. Worked great! Motor is mounted. Now I have to fab a bracket to mount the VFD. Off to Lowes to get what I need to wire it up...

image.jpg image.jpg

image.jpg image.jpg
 

CoopVA

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#19
Mocked up the bracket for the VFD. I think it will work! Just have to go back to the hardware store to get a couple of things and should be able to fire her up tomorrow.

image.jpg
image.jpg

image.jpg image.jpg
 

schor

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#20
Cool, glad your getting things in order. Make a vid of the running if you can. Did you figure out the max speed you can get or will you just measure it?
 

CoopVA

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#21
Cool, glad your getting things in order. Make a vid of the running if you can. Did you figure out the max speed you can get or will you just measure it?
Can do video. Found a vintage Ideal hand held tach on eBay and will just measure it. It should get here Monday or Tuesday. I'm taking a WAG doing the calculations...
 

CoopVA

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#22
It's alive!

First time start up!

[video=youtube_share;8zL17caPDV0]http://youtu.be/8zL17caPDV0[/video]
 

CoopVA

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#23
So I finally got the garage built and have been moving in. Had to take the drill press apart to move it, so I started cleaning it up.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1405822250.551013.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1405822264.149008.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1405822279.519194.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1405822301.082485.jpg

Going to tackle the spindle bearings tomorrow. Has anybody replaced these bearings? The lock nut and shoe have me at a loss... The lock nut loosens, but then stops. I do not want to force it... What's the trick to getting it off?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1405822250.551013.jpg ImageUploadedByTapatalk1405822264.149008.jpg ImageUploadedByTapatalk1405822279.519194.jpg ImageUploadedByTapatalk1405822301.082485.jpg
 

CoopVA

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#24
So I was examining the quill and spindle and took the set screw that holds the shoe into the locknut completely out and just grabbed the locknut and turned it off by hand. It came off fairly easily. I was not sure how the shoe worked, but come to find out it is just a key that is threaded. The set screw locked it onto the shaft... Never seen anything like it before. Now I have to go buy a press to get the bearings off...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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mattthemuppet2

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#25
After taking any bearing retainers off the top of the spindle you may be able to gently knock the spindle out with a mallet and piece of wood. Not sure about the bottom bearing, but a piece of the right diameter plastic pipe might work to drift the old one off and the new one on. You may even get away with cleaning the existing bearings and regrease them.
 

CoopVA

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Thanks. I will try that. The bearings appear to be sealed... Shouldn't be to difficult.


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CoopVA

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#27
Put all the big bits together this weekend. It's coming together...

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1406508939.622832.jpg

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1406508939.622832.jpg
 

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#28
Good job! Looks really nice.
 

CoopVA

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#29
Thanks!
 

mattthemuppet2

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#30
looking great!

For sealed bearings you can get the seals off relatively easily. Rubber seals are easier, just stick a very small flat bladed screwdriver or pick in at the ID edge and gently lever upwards. You might bend it slightly, but they're easy to bend back flat. Metal shields are a bit trickier, essentially the same process, but you're more likely to bend the shield. Again, you can bend them back easily enough, though they won't look as pretty as before. If you can take both shields off, you can easily soak them in degreaser, flush them out with WD40 and dry them out with compressed air. Then repack 1/3 to 1/2 full with some decent high temp grease and they'll probably out last you.

Note, for the lower bearing depending on how much of a pain it is to remove, it may be worth cleaning and regreasing in situ rather than risk damaging the races by removing it.
 
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