Curious to your thoughts . Please keep this un-political as per the forum rules .

I totally agree it should be in HS. When I was in Jr. High school (7th and 8th gr) we were required to take wood shop. We were given a project to complete by the end of the school year and was graded. Our teacher was great! He expected your best and taught us how to achieve it. In 9th grade he gave a friend and me the opportunity to run the "machine shop" which consisted of a old flat belt drive lathe, a Cincinnati shaper and a knee mill. Those school years are, what I believe, a foundation builder for me.
 
With regard to machining, specifically. If the trade were in better shape in the states, I would be all for it.

Job shops are the dominant business model, and the wages just aren't good enough for me to feel comfortable with younger folks headed toward this career path. Of course there are exceptions to this rule, but most will need to depend on overtime to earn a decent wage. This is just the reality in such a competitive market.

If we are talking about passion for the trade, in general, I would be all for it.

I think most would be in for a shock when making the transition from vocational school to a paid position. The majority of folks would likely find themselves working in an environment with rampant substance abuse and very few training opportunities.

Manual shops are largely dead, and many cnc shops have a central programmer with operators who have little to no opportunity to advance.

Every time I poke my head out to interview for a new position, it saddens me how little things have changed in the past 24 years.

Call these anecdotes, but that is what I see out there.
 
I fully support bringing vocational trades back into high schools.
I think that urbanization and a focus on high tech education has reduced the awareness that trades actually exist.

Years ago I read a book written by Stanley Pollan "The Millionaire Next Door" It is a study of millionaires in the US.
A few things stood out for me:
Most popular vehicle with US millionaires? Ford F-150
Most common profession? Tradesperson.
'nuff said

Not that I'm saying money is the be all and end all.
Having never heard of the book and also astonished by the choice of ride I looked up when it was written and it was published in 1996. It had been "extensively researched for 20yrs" and as a guy who graduated in '72 that world and now are not even in the same galaxy. And '96 was before NAFTA and the whole way our economy works. When we went from goods and services to an information based economy and the mass exodus of manufacturing the tradesman became an independent contractor. The only guys I know who aren't just working stiffs are contractors. And the guys who work for them no longer have full time work and don't make what they used to make when they got prevailing wage.

Every area is different and I think guys back east always made more than I ever did here. I have an AS in automotive and AS aircraft and had all my ASE tickets and an A&P license and when I applied for a job they said I was overqualified. All the schooling and $5 would get me a cup o' coffee. Actually working for a living means you get your hands dirty and the millionaires and billionaires of today do not get their hands dirty.
 
Having never heard of the book and also astonished by the choice of ride I looked up when it was written and it was published in 1996. It had been "extensively researched for 20yrs" and as a guy who graduated in '72 that world and now are not even in the same galaxy. And '96 was before NAFTA and the whole way our economy works. When we went from goods and services to an information based economy and the mass exodus of manufacturing the tradesman became an independent contractor. The only guys I know who aren't just working stiffs are contractors. And the guys who work for them no longer have full time work and don't make what they used to make when they got prevailing wage.

Every area is different and I think guys back east always made more than I ever did here. I have an AS in automotive and AS aircraft and had all my ASE tickets and an A&P license and when I applied for a job they said I was overqualified. All the schooling and $5 would get me a cup o' coffee. Actually working for a living means you get your hands dirty and the millionaires and billionaires of today do not get their hands dirty.

I completely agree that there’s been massive change since the book was researched.



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We need vocational schools, and I for one think that it would be best to have it in place when the kids are in jr. high at least.

I had 'shop' classes from the 7th grade on. Wood, carpentry, basic metal, small engines, auto/advanced auto, and drafting/engineering.
Took all that I could up into Sr. year. Unfortunately even in the 1970's the advance metal working classes had been mothballed.
Had a fantastic metal shop just sitting there gathering dust the entire four years I was there.

The focus (as mentioned above) has been directed at getting students into collage.
When my oldest son was in high school early 2000's I couldn't get him into Computer Technology nor any 'shop' type classes.
University, University, University... He didn't want nor need to take French...

They've shutdown all the vocational training in the districts around here.
I've been to (5) high schools in the area and it's a crying shame to see 'shop' facilities that have been shuttered and used for storage.
And to top it off in a couple they ripped out everything down to the bare walls. Not to mention selling off everything.

Then a few years ago it dawned on the 'educators' (I'm glad those Phd's are good for something) that maybe they needed vocational school for those who weren't taking the collage track.

It's going to take a paradigm shift to take a long hard look at what society needs are going to me now and in the future.

The 'Old Timer' that hired me in the late '70s for board work in the tool room, said it was because the large manufacturers had closed down all their apprenticeship programs. That included Allis-Chalmers, our parent company.
He wanted someone with board skills that could learn from him and the two tool & die makers.
(I really didn't appreciate the opportunity I had been given until years later... :( )
 
I desperately wanted to go after an A&P up at Lewis in '79. Couldn't secure a loan for tuition though.
Figured that would be the ticket to see me through until retirement. I see now that wouldn't have worked either.
I know of two gents who are A&P mechanics and worked at McGhee Tyson in Knoxville for a major.
They were RIF'd when they were in their mid fifties. Just when they were getting to the 'sweet' spot in their pension plans.
One is holding down the floor at Home Depot, the other is drive a delivery truck - local.

Having never heard of the book and also astonished by the choice of ride I looked up when it was written and it was published in 1996. It had been "extensively researched for 20yrs" and as a guy who graduated in '72 that world and now are not even in the same galaxy. And '96 was before NAFTA and the whole way our economy works. When we went from goods and services to an information based economy and the mass exodus of manufacturing the tradesman became an independent contractor. The only guys I know who aren't just working stiffs are contractors. And the guys who work for them no longer have full time work and don't make what they used to make when they got prevailing wage.

Every area is different and I think guys back east always made more than I ever did here. I have an AS in automotive and AS aircraft and had all my ASE tickets and an A&P license and when I applied for a job they said I was overqualified. All the schooling and $5 would get me a cup o' coffee. Actually working for a living means you get your hands dirty and the millionaires and billionaires of today do not get their hands dirty.
 
At the very least, there should be shop classes taught in high school.
I have two 23 year old high school graduates working in my Heavy Equipment Shop. Both went to "Non Traditional" high schools, but not "Private".
One calls the other's school the "Ultra" Nerd school. He just went to the "Nerd" school. Neither school had any trade classes at all. Neither of these KIDS had ever driven a screw, or held a hacksaw in their lives. They could not find 13/16 on a tape with both hands. I did NOT choose to hire them, okay? I am disgusted with the whole education system, period. Neither of these people decided on a career in this field based on aptitude or desire.
It's going to take a paradigm shift
The "Entitlement" movement is the one that needs the shift. Both of these kids think the obligation is on the Company to provide them the necessary skills, aptitude and desire to succeed. Neither can understand why they have not been promoted in their first 6 months.
 
Perhaps it is we that have failed them by allowing the school districts to dictate to us what was best for our children instead of getting more involved with the whole system and holding the administrators, and also legislators to task for the curriculum being taught and methods used.
How did we allow school districts across the country to shut down and liquidate so much?
Or perhaps it might have been that the kids just didn't want the take _those_ classes, which takes us back to 'entitlement'...
 
In the late 80's and through the 90's technical training in our area was seen as a waste of time. Everyone was pushing the kids to get a college degree. The apprenticeships dried up, the high schools closed all the shops (wood, machine, and automotive, etc.) and tried to steer those interested in technical careers toward the computer programing side of things. They quickly found out quite a few kids weren't interested in programming or software development as a career. They were either left to fend for themselves or find someone in the community to mentor them.

In the early 2000's the baby boomers started retiring and it was a struggle to find qualified machinists, plumbers, carpenters, mechanics, electricians, and other trades people. It was far too expensive to try and recreate all the high school technical programs even though there was a high demand for trained tradesmen. The light finally went on and the local high schools started partnering with the technical colleges.

Those interested in technical careers can now spend several hours a week at the technical colleges and learn their trade of choice. Even 15 years the programs were initiated there are still plenty of openings for qualified tradesmen. Fortunately the schools have recognized the problem and made proactive decisions to fill the needs. Our local technical college has 4 huge state of the art machine shops, a facility for training fire fighters, 2 automotive/ truck shops, a program for budding construction workers, training and apprenticeships for electricians, plumbers, and even heavy equipment operators.

I must say I am pleased with the progress being made. I would much rather see a kid pick a career they're interested in rather than go through a life of drudgery at a job that they can't stand.
 
Warning! Warning! You have pushed Bryan's Hot Button!

Be careful what you ask for...Vermont's situation is something like this:

Population: about 628,000 people in 2018.

We are losing something like 1,000 people annually the past three years, predictions of a loss of 11,000 people across the state is predicted over the next 5 years.

Unemployment in Chittenden county, the most populous of the state and seat of Burlington, is currently at 1.5% the lowest ever recorded in VT history and somebody claims this is the lowest in the country. Another person at the Chamber told me that Burlington was at 0.9%! That's great, right!?

There are something like 8 Centers of Technical Excellence (CTE or Vocational Schools) in Vermont. Where I live in Saint Albans, they have a welding program, auto tech program, building trades, engineering, cosmotology, digital design, and they continue to add more. My 18 year will graduate this year as a Sr. with 3-4 college credits and a completed internship in the Digital Design program.

Starting wages in our factory in Burlington with ZERO experience is $14/hr. Most people are coming in with a couple of years experience and getting $16-18/hr. Journeyman Electrician's are starting at $20-25/hr. Master Plumbers and Electricians are naming their price and people are paying it. With the shortage of labor, I've heard stories of some of these guys making six figures just by signing up for OT.

Our machinists are making mid $20 and up. Most fabrication jobs, press operators, CNC sheetmetal machine operators, etc. are $17-21/hr.

When I tell people who are working in a grocery store that we are hiring - after listening to them complain about their pay - and I tell them what we pay...I wish I had a nickel for every time I get a blank stare in return and we never see them apply.

I've participated in a State driven initiative pushed by the governor. It is funded by the DOE and it is a program to fast track and recruit people into what is something like a Manufacturing Talent Pipeline. We have worked with ALL of the CTEs, third party training providers, local community colleges and other manufacturers we compete with for local labor - with the idea that we need to get kids interested and educated in Manufacturing. Almost all of the programs created to date have been utilized by incumbent employees, there have been no recruits to come through the program in the year that the initiative was launched.

There is a National Event in October - Manufacturing Day. Companies all around the country are encouraged to hold open houses and contact schools to get kids to come in and visit the factory and get a sense of what a modern career in advanced U.S. manufacturing looks like. I can't get CTE directors or high school administrators or teachers to signup. Several excuses I've heard: don't have the bus money in the budget, I can't take only the interested few - have to bring everyone to make it fair, not in our charter, need to get approval, nobody is interested, etc.

Here is the thing - the kids aren't interested in manufacturing. And I got to tell you, I've spent a bunch of time with the legislators and educators on this and after listening to what they are up against - I conclude that it is the parents. Nobody wants their kids working in a factory. They are pushing, pushing, pushing university education. Some people blame the teachers for this. I don't. They are parents too. And everyone thinks factories are some relic of the past - that somehow we are beyond that old fashioned time, right?! I've heard some pretty distorted views of what people think factory life is like. Or worse AND incorrectly they think manufacturing is going away because of automation or China - nobody wants anything to do with it. We have done a terrible job about telling people what our lives are like.

The last thing that bugs me is the manufacturers themselves. There is a lot of finger-pointing at the state. I'm not a fan of Vermont politics and I know I'm brushing up against the forum rules here, but Vermont is such a small state with almost no resources except its people. Manufacturers absolutely have the power to make change and have a seat at the table with the people they want to hire - many are content to shift blame to the state and the teachers because that seems like the fashionable and easy thing to do.

The educators see the writing on the wall in Vermont. There was a survey in April 2019:

  • When asked, “Are you more or less optimistic about the general business climate in your sector compared to three months ago?”…overall the responses were largely neutral or negative. The Manufacturing sector expressed the most optimism (40%), while the Education sector had the most pessimistic outlook (43%).
Conclusion: very few jobs, talent is leaving, resources are in abundance, nobody is looking for jobs in our sector and many companies have sort of just thrown up their hands. As a result, the vocational schools are starting to shift their attention to nursing, professional services, coding and other service related trades. This isn't bad for those industries, but for manufacturers, sadly I think the last of the vocational schools are permanently transformed and have abandoned manufacturing. Do I think high schools should take this on? YES. Will they? NO. They have no incentive to do so.
 
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