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Dalton B4 Restoration

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Hammer

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#1
Hello all,

I was gifted a partial lathe a year or two back and I've decided to restore this before I go on and buy a mill or something bigger. As she came to me I recieved a MASSIVE .25hp induction motor, counter shaft, lathe, some change gears, various accessories in various states of neglect.

I plant to find a find a new smaller (lighter) .5hp motor, build a bracket/ tensioner for the counter shaft, clean up the old iron and steel parts, put some new paint on her, new felt, build a lathe table (for which I really hope wood will work) and maybe new brass bearings if I can find them.

I have a scraper, but I do not plan on on scraping the ways or the lathe bed. I don't have any of the camelbacks/straight edges and I've never done it before.

I've never done a "build thread" with a ton of pictures but if there is enough interest I'll post regular updates. Tips, tricks, and anyone who has worked with these lathes before, drop me a line!

Wish me luck!
 

brino

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#2
Hello Hammer, welcome aboard!

It sure sounds like an interesting project.

Was the original motor 2.5hp? (maybe a typo above).

I do not know the Dalton lathes, pictures would be great.
What size is it? (swing and between centres), flat belt?, what's the spindle type/size?
You said "partial", what pieces are you missing?

As for a lathe bench, these was a thread recently dealing with some thoughts there....I'll see if I can find a link and post back if I do.

Good Luck!
-brino
 

Hammer

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#4
Brino,

It is a .25 or 1/4 hp motor. That seems dreadfully small to me, so I plan on upping it. I will snap some pictures tonight. I measured about 7" swing and maybe 20" between centers. It's a little guy. the spindle is driven by flat leather belts, I will move it over to scarfed serpentine belts. Through hole was .875 or so. Just a little too small for a rifle barrel :(. I am missing the stand to hold my countershaft, seen here:

lathes.co.uk/dalton/page5.html

I can't post links yet, so you're going to have to drop that into google.

Excellent news for me on the bench then! I glued some dimensional lumber together and routed the top flat. I planned on adding some .125 or.25" steel to the top. Now I'll just do that, add some 2x6 joists to the bottom and I should be good.

I also recieved some extras, steady rest, some HSS bits, etc. Most are in bad states. I may not even restore those. I'll sum it all up after I get home tonight.
 

brino

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#5
As she came to me I received a MASSIVE .25hp induction motor
aaahhh, of course, sorry I did not hear your sarcasm;)

the spindle is driven by flat leather belts, I will move it over to scarfed serpentine belts
I have two lathes with flat belts. Both currently using old serpentine belts.
The first one I scarfed but I could never get rid of the slight "bump" as it went around the smaller pulleys; I believe it was a problem with the joint being stiffer than the rest of the belt.
When I made the second one I just cut it square, butted the ends up and stitched them together. It runs better, though I do see a slight separation in the ends of the belt, I can just see light thru now.
I'm hoping that was just the initial stretch of the stitches and that the movement will stop. I do release tension when not using it.

Thanks for the link, I've never see that make before.

I like the basic black and steel with the brass colour on the tumbler handle.
It looks like a fine lathe!

-brino

edit: did you get all the change gears?
 

Hammer

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#6
Some intricacies are just lost with the internet, I meant that this motor has .25 hp, and is physically massive. Makes no sense, I own 1.5 hp motors smaller and lighter than it. You will see in the pictures. I have a good lot of change gears, I don't know if it was all of them. I'll just cast and finish machine out new ones as I need them.
20150425_224229_resized.jpg 20150425_224243_resized.jpg 20150425_224252_resized.jpg
20150425_224301_resized.jpg This steady rest isn't exactly in great shape, it's brazed together and pretty rusty. I may make a new one.
20150425_224344_resized.jpg Counter shaft that needs some kind of support and tension.
20150425_224414_resized.jpg No idea what this is. came with the lathe.
20150425_224428_resized.jpg 20150425_224438_resized.jpg 20150425_224507_resized.jpg old belts, lathe goodies, massive motor. the one to the right is 1.5hp.
 

Hammer

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#7
I pulled the spindle off last night. The babbit looked OK, but there were no more shims to remove play, the fiber washers were pretty beat up as well. The fiber washer will be replaced with needle bearings. But I don't know what I'm going to do with the babbit. I don't like the idea of loose rollers riding on the cast iron as a replacement, I may attempt to peen the babbit or file down the cap to get more room for adjustment. Picture of this may not be up until tomorrow.
 
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#8
I have a Dalton B4 I fixed up. there is a thread on it here somewhere. You will have a hard time finding parts. I make most of mine. There is a yahoo group just for Dalton lathes and you can get a lot of information there. sometimes you can get a few common parts there. These lathes were started in 1913 and the company failed in the stock crash of 1929. I can try to help you with ant info you may want . If you need any change gears, there is a list of Boston gears available. most are still available. They are 20 DP gears. The B4 is a nice little lathe. Mine was in use at a friend's shop the last 7 years, and I finally brought it home.

EDIT: See mine here: http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/dalton-b4-lathe.34646/
 

Hammer

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#9
Mark,

I am very jealous of your original cast counter shaft bracket! So a few questions from me if you don't mind. How is that belt running for you? Any noticeable effect from the joint on a finishing cut? What size motor are you using? How does is handle a heavy HSS cut? (.050")

-Arrmon
 
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#10
Mark,

I am very jealous of your original cast counter shaft bracket! So a few questions from me if you don't mind. How is that belt running for you? Any noticeable effect from the joint on a finishing cut? What size motor are you using? How does is handle a heavy HSS cut? (.050")

-Arrmon
Arrmon,

The flat belt runs smoothly and gives no problems at all.

The counter shaft was not complete. I had to make the top brackets and support bar. But it did come out nice. You can easily build the counter shaft assembly using the parts you have and making the rest. The other GOOD option is to pickup a south bend 9 inch lathe counter shaft unit on eBay. It will work perfectly on your machine.

The B4 Dalton is actually a threading lathe. It has no feed rates except for threading. You can get some large gears and gear it down for a decent feed rate, but you probably won't be able to close the cover with them on. Other than that, you have to hand feed.

My Dalton ran for years with a 1/4 hp motor, but it won't take heavy cuts. I am changing to a 1/2 hp motor. I am also changing to a DC motor so all I do is dial the speed I want. Don't have to move belts. ( my Dalton was set up this ).

All said and done, I would use a south bend counter shaft and a 1/2 hp Dc motor. You can get the motor drive under $100 and a new motor for about $150. And you are done.

Anything I can help you with, let me know.

Mark

Dalton91.jpg Dalton92.jpg Dalton93.jpg Dalton94.jpg Dalton95.jpg Dalton95.jpg Dalton96.jpg Dalton97.jpg
 
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#11
I pulled the spindle off last night. The babbit looked OK, but there were no more shims to remove play, the fiber washers were pretty beat up as well. The fiber washer will be replaced with needle bearings. But I don't know what I'm going to do with the babbit. I don't like the idea of loose rollers riding on the cast iron as a replacement, I may attempt to peen the babbit or file down the cap to get more room for adjustment. Picture of this may not be up until tomorrow.
Arrmo,

In your photos, that counter shaft part you have was part of an over head clutch and counter shaft. You are missing a lot of it and probably would not want to use it anyway. It is large and primitive.( although it was state of the art in 1920 or so).

You could use the 3 step flat belt pulley off that assembly to make a counter shaft, but it would be easier and probably just as inexpensive to pick up a SB counter shaft off ebay.

If there is no play in your spindle bearings, just put the caps back . If needed you could file a few thousandths of the caps to tighten them, but if any looser , you need to look at replacing them. ( There aren't many folks around anymore that can or will do babbit work.

Your lathe should clean up nicely and make a nice lathe for hobby work.
 
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#12
That shaft you are holding in the photo that says "Don't know what this is". That is part of that counter shaft/clutch assembly. There is a lot missing.


Edit: Join the Dalton lathe yahoo group and look through the photos there. You will learn a lot about these rare but nice machines.
 

Hammer

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#13
Some home improvements got in the way of taking pictures, but I did tear down the spindle a bit more, pulled the pulleys off of the spindle, and soaked the rest in penetrating oil. I'm trying to get the moderatly rusted back gear off so I can derust the entire part. It's being a bit of a pain, but I do think it comes off, as it has a keyway.

-Arrmon
 
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Some home improvements got in the way of taking pictures, but I did tear down the spindle a bit more, pulled the pulleys off of the spindle, and soaked the rest in penetrating oil. I'm trying to get the moderatly rusted back gear off so I can derust the entire part. It's being a bit of a pain, but I do think it comes off, as it has a keyway.

-Arrmon
If you are talking about the backgear shaft assembly, DO NOT pull the gear off. The small gear is part of the shaft and the large gear is pressed on and should be left on unless it is broken and needs replacement. Just de-rust it as an assembly. The eccentric shaft should slide out of the backgear shaft. Also be careful not to damage the split bearings on the ends of the backgear assembly. ( they have a slit on one side and I think they are cast iron.
 
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#15
To remove the back gear assembly, remove the set screw from the handle and remove it. Remove the set scew on the bottom of each end of the back gear bearing housing. Use a soft rod to drive the bearings and shaft assembly out, remove the bearings and slide the eccentric shaft out.
 
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Hammer

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#16
Hey, its been a while. a long while. I got the spindle out and took a good hard look at it. It was grooved with pits. .002-.005 out of spec on both bearing locations and tapered on the chuck bearing. Mark, I was talking about the large gear pressed on the spindle. I'm having it chromed and ground back to size so it needed to come off. Wasn't that hard. I heated the gear and cooled the shaft, it came off with a few firm taps from my brass hammer. The babbit bearings are shot as they were cast to fit the tapered shaft.... I will be making bronze ones on a friends lathe. Right now I'm just stripping parts and painting them. I have some nice pictures that need Mod approval and I will load them here. I've been using Evaporust for parts with brass or non-ferrous bits on them. It does a great job. On the cast pieces I've been using electolysis as my go to for larger parts.

I do want to remove all the brass plates that are riveted on so I can clean the steel and castings. Any tips for removing those tiny rivets, and putting new ones on?
 

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#17

Glenn Brooks

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#18
Regarding your riveted info plates: just chisel the rivets off with a small, sharp chisel. Sharpen and hone the chisel to get it like a knife blade, then gentle slice/cut the back off the rivet and drive the rivet shank out with a small punch.

You can still buy brass rivets of various sizes from most fastener suppliers. Just buy the right size rivet and peen them back into the existing holes to reinstall the inspection plates, after refinishing. Here is a pic of a plate I riveted back on when I rebuilt my Dalton last year.

Also you can buy split rivets- which have a solid head and split tail similar to a cotter pin. Just insert and bend the tail over. Personally I don't like the tails as much as the solid shaft type, but they work fine.

also, on this site, the moderators recently added a manufacturers specific Dalton Lathe forum. You could move your thread over to there and it would be a nice addition to the Dalton knowledge base...

Glenn

IMG_1303.JPG
 
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Hammer

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#19
Glen,

I would but I don't know how. Moderator, could you move this thread to the Dalton Lathe section?

-Arrmon
 

Hammer

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#20
Glen,

Thank you for the tip on the rivets, I got them all off last night. Most were split rivets, with some drive rivets. I also moved quite a few parts from the cleaning solution into the electrolysis tank, Hopefully I'll have pictures up tomorrow of some primed parts.
 

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Hammer, sounds like the split rivets are original. Mine had them also. I just didn't like the bent tail ends on the inside of the housings grabbing stuff -fingers, shirt sleeves, oil and dips, etc. so replaced with solid shaft peened kind. Actually found them quite interesting to install. Look forward to seeing your photos.

P.S., you may also consider joining the Dalton Bunch Yahoo group. Dennis Turk moderates. This is the Dalton Lathe email group. Several hundred Dalton owners on it. Dennis is very knowledgeable about Dalton operation. Wealth of info when you get ready to set it up to operate.

Glenn
 

RandyM

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Glen,

I would but I don't know how. Moderator, could you move this thread to the Dalton Lathe section?

-Arrmon
Ask and ye shall receive.
 

Glenn Brooks

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#23
Hoooah! Dalton forum taking shape! thanks Randy!!
 

Hammer

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#24
So I did get some work done, but my phone/camera died. It was a four year old phone, so it was time. I'll have a new one and pictures up in a few days. A bunch of parts from the compound and back gear assy. came out of the electrolysis tank and got primed or dipped in oil.
Right now the most work I am doing is scrubbing the carbon off after de-rusting and trying to keep the parts from RE-rusting after I rinse the electrolyte solution off them. I'm fairly certain if I try a dip in phosphoric acid right after I pull them from the tank it will stop the flash rust dead in its tracks. But for scrubbing the carbon off, do you think a trip back through the parts cleaner solution would help?
 

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#25
Definitely rinse in Ospho - trade name for Phosporic acid- if flash rusting is a problem. You might not want to let the Ospho set on the metal for long. If no iron oxide present, the phosphoric acid will just sit there staining the surface until it evaporates. The other draw back, is phosphoric acid chemically reacts with the iron oxide(rust), to create phosphoric oxide. This hrey residue has a noticeable thickness, that is sometimes not desirable to leave on a part - for example, machined surfaces. So wire wheel it off is the order of the day. Otherwise the upside is, the residue can be left in place and used in lieu of a primer coat. Just paint over it.

Usually with machine parts, After derusting, I often quickly wash down the part with with phosphoric acid, then wipe it clean with solvent - paint thinner or diesel, and a dry rag. Usually this protects for days to weeks, until ready to paint.

Another way to clean up the parts after derusting is buff off the residue with a wire wheel mounted on a grinder. This gets rid of the residue and polishes up the surface for painting.

Glenn
 
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Hammer

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#26
So, I'm waiting on new carbon anodes. In the mean time my dad actually came up with something cool. He 3D printed new headstock bearings at his work, from home, on a Sunday morning. I went over with the dimensions I took off the babbit, housing, and spindle. He drew two cad drawings of the old bearings, then we removed some of the shoulder on both to make room for needle thrust bearings instead of fiber washers. Then he sent the file to his work, and we watched the machine print them through a secured live feed from his laptop.

Long story short, when I got them home and cleaned up they were a *VERY* tight fit to the headstock. Once I get the spindle back, I will check the bore. My question to you is this: should I have the bearings made to perfectly round with .001 clearance from the spindle, cut them with a .030 slitting saw and shim them .030? Or should I split the stock, glue them together, machine them, and then install .001 shims? The latter is the "correct way I've heard from many people, but wouldn't the ID be oval?
 

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#27
Dalton paint (1).jpg
First coat of paint on headstock, plastic bearings in place.

Dalton paint (2).jpg
some parts from the compound

Dalton paint (4).jpg
back gear and handle

Dalton paint (5).jpg

Lead screw ends
 

Hammer

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#28
Lathe bed de-rusting (1).jpg

Ok, So dilemma here. Lathe bed does not fit. When I flipped the ends, the one sticking out flash rusted, even with phosphoric acid. I'm thinking of leaving the flash rust, taking it to work and using phosphoric acid to clean the flash, the pressure washing and priming it as fast as possible.
 

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Glenn Brooks

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#29
Yikes, I would pull the ways out of the electrolysis tank right away. You don't want to risk any unnecessary loss of material off the machined surfaces-e.g. The v ways that the saddle and tail stock ride on. Ospho is fine for non critical surfaces. I apologize for not making that distinction in an earlier post.

The lathe bed and ways were hand scraped to tenths (1/10000") when new, so usually half a thou or less of flatness across the way. So every .001" imperfection in the way is a hit against precision ever afterward. A lot of professional machinists never clean new machines ways with anything stronger than diesel, way oil and a soft, lint free rag.

To directly answer your question about flash rust - particularly on the ways, I think your best bet would be to use Evaporrust. Wipe it on, let sit for 20 minutes. Wipe/light scrub off with aforementioned rag until the metal is clean. Then wipe down the ways with way oil, even diesel for short term, and paint. Oil will inhibit rust formation on the exposed surfaces. It can be cleaned off with paint thinner when you prime and paint...

Evaporust actually lifts the rust molecules off the surface, whereas Ospho Chemically chemically reacts with the surface - leaving an iron phosphate coating on the ways. Any non machined surface- ospho (phosphoric acid) is fine - it actually seals the surface against further rusting!


Regarding your headstock bearings: what material are they printed from? Hopefully they are some form of brass or bronze that won't gall the surface of your spindle. Regarding closeness of fit. You will want to have around .001" clearance between the spindle and surface of the bearing. The machine oil that Lubes the bearing and spindle needs this clearance to flow around the mating parts. Also the oil provides the necessary support in the bearing interface during operation.

Sure, ok to split the bearings with a thin splitting saw. Split bearings are designed to work with some thin gap between upper and lower edges. The usually method is to scrape the bearing to achieve proper fit. So Maybe you could bore out the bearings to .001" overage and then shim and scrape to fit. I found when I shimmed and fit my bearings, that when I tighten the bearing cap down, to achieve less than .002" spindle play, it distorted the bearing halves around the shaft a bit, causing binding at the 3 and 9 0clock positions.So most of my scraping was on the "sides" of the bearings.

Glenn.
 

Hammer

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#30
Glen,

Electrolysis is physically incapable of removing any steel if you use a certain electrolyte (sodium carbonate: AKA washing soda). Also as I mentioned, the lathe bed is no longer in good shape, it really needs work... I have oil on the exposed ways right now to stop the flash rusting. The printed bearings are ABS, they are simply there for a test fit before I make the bronze set.

Thanks for the info on the bearings! Is there torque spec for the bearing cap screws?

-Arrmon
 
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