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Enco 105-1100 for sale; thoughts?

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ARC-170

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#1
There is an Enco 105-1100 the seller wants $1,750 for. I asked him what he based the price on. He says he knows what these cost and he's seen prices in that range. It's been for sale for about a month. It needs feed handles on the mill table and a vise (3 feed handles are about $100). It comes with a partial clamping kit and some cutters. Says he got it from a guy who had it in the garage and used it lightly (isn't that what they ALL say!). He says the table is in nice shape. The motor has a date of 1989 on it. Mill was made in Taiwan. It's local to me (I live in SoCal) so I can pick it up.

I'm familiar with the issues of a round column machine, but this will suit my needs for size and accuracy. Actually, it might be a little too big, but I know that's better than too small!

I think this is too much based on being able to get an admittedly inferior HF one for about $900 with a coupon. I also saw a similar one a little farther away that I can get for about $650 with no tooling at all. Brand new (MSCDirect, Rong-Fu) they are about $2,800. I wanted to see what the consensus was on this forum.

I want to offer significantly less, but want to make sure I'm offering a fair price and be able to justify it.

I can go check it out and report back, so let me know what I should ask and look for.

Thanks!
enco mill pic 1.jpg enco mill pic 2 tooling.jpg enco mill pic 2.jpg enco mill pic 3.jpg
 

mikey

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#2
Pretty sure that's an RF-25, made in Taiwan, not China like the HF equivalent. I have an RF-31 and it has a different base at the bottom of the column, the table is bigger and the quill diameter is bigger. The RF-25 is still a good little benchtop mill that weighs about 400# so it will work fine in a hobby shop. I'm sure you're aware of the issues with the round column; not a real major issue. These little mills are pretty capable and can be made to run accurately. My spindle has less than 0.0001" TIR so they can do accurate work within their envelope.

In my opinion, the tooling is not worth much and I wouldn't allow that to figure into your decision or the price.

Most of us add an X-axis powerfeed and if you get one then you will need at least one handle for the other end of the table and one for the Y-axis feed.

The RF-25 is a lighter version of the RF-31 and it cost less to buy new, too. I would think this one should go for around 800-900 bucks and it is worth that if it otherwise in good shape. Personally, I think the owner doesn't know much about this machine because he is pricing it at the level an RF-31 would bring if in mint condition. If he won't bite, walk on and wait for a more sensible seller. They sold these by the thousands; another one will turn up.
 

Nogoingback

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#3
Around here Asian round column mills can be purchased for anywhere from $800.00 to $1200.00. It looks nice, but that might be a
bit on the high side price wise.
 

craptain

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#4
We have all seen them at that price, and have not bought them. He is dreaming.
I can't tell if it's an Rf30 or 25 from the pictures. But regardless, it's too expensive. Without knowing the condition, the tooling is very limited. I didn't see colletts or toolholders, well perhaps 1 toolholder, so the bits can't be used. The face mill might be good, but I bought 2 last night for $25. The holdown set is missing a lot of pieces, and in any case can be bought for around $40-50 on Ebay. I would value the accessories at little more than $100. Plus the base, which new is around $150.
That still leaves the machine itself priced between $600-1000 high.

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Bob Korves

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The extra tooling is not worth the cost and hassle of the missing parts. Make up your mind what it is really worth to you, tell him in person the price is too high, give your final CASH offer, take it or leave it, a phone number, a date the offer is good until (couple days to a week?), OR until you buy another machine), written on a card or piece of paper, hand it to him and tell him you truly hope he gets his asking price, but to call you if he really wants to make a sale. Then walk away and stick to your offer.
You may not get to your car before he stops you...
 

mikey

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Go here and look at the specs to sort out if it is an RF-25: http://www.micro-machine-shop.com/rong_fu_rf_25_mill.htm#RF-25 Specs

Measure the quill diameter (RF-25 has a 2.44" OD quill) and the table dimensions and compare them to the specs above. The shape of the base of the column strongly support that this is an RF-25. When you check it, look for the scraping on the Y-axis ways that Rong Fu of Taiwan did to these machines; should be evidence of the flaking pattern on the ways.

Ideally, you want to take a magnetic stand and dti with you can check static run out. If run out is excessive, greater than 0.0005", then it means the bearings might be gone or going. Just that alone should lower the price to within reason.
 

TerryH

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#7
I'll agree with the others. It's not an RF30. Not worth near the asking price.
 

Norseman C.B.

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#8
Walk away, the price is way TFM..........................
 

markba633csi

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#9
Too much $$ especially with no vise and missing parts
 

MAKEITOUTOFWOOD

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#10
No thanks
 

C-Bag

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Pass.....
 

mickri

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I paid $500 for my mill/drill. An RF30 branded as an Ecel 30. Did not come with any tooling except for a Walther 15" rotary table that I sold to a local machine shop for $1000. I would go look at the mill drill in Buelton. That is a nice drive up the coast and not far from you. No LA traffic to contend with. It won't last long at $250.
 

ARC-170

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#14
Thanks for the heads up! I just texted the seller for the Santa Maria one. Stay tuned!

I found 2 more a bit of a drive away. One seller wanted $1400 for a newer-looking Jet M-D18. I told them that other mills of this type were selling for around $500-600 and ones priced the same as theirs were just sitting. They got pissy and told me to buy a new one for $2600. I said I could buy a new one for about $1800. Whatever. I made an offer, don't get mad! Counter offer!
What is it with people pricing stuff way out of line, anyway? I always look and see what else is selling at for what price. Contact the sellers and ask what they sold it for. Look at how long the item is on CL for. If it's more than a few days, it's overpriced.
Here's a photo. There were more but they were as bad or worse than this one:
jet black and white 1.jpg
The other one is a green rusty one that looks like it's been sitting outside for a few years. They want $1,200! Seriously:
mill rusty.jpg
 

ARC-170

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#15
Here's another one. Thoughts?:
Extremely well made Enco (1994 Taiwan built) mill drill. Almost like new. Comparable to Jet mill drill @ $4000 plus. (See https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/35295237). The bed is 24" x9", twelve speed belt drive, two horse single phase motor. It comes with three vices and a lot of misc tooling that would cost around $1000. The mill and tooling have had very little use and have been very well cared for. It's a steal at $2000. Complete with tooling, cabinet and chip pan

enco mill NB 1.jpg enco mill NB 2.jpg enco mill NB 3.jpg

Motor has a date stamp of 199X (can't read the last number at all in the picture). Seems a bit on the high side, but it looks like it's in good shape. I can get a Grizzly (G0705 with stand) for around $2,000 delivered. How much is the tooling (vise, bits, etc) really worth? A vise, collet set and bits are about $500 delivered. What are those bits in the upper right?
I'm thinking this mill package is worth more like $1,000-$1,300. Thoughts?

BTW, is this annoying to post like this on this forum? I really appreciate the feedback and am learning quite a bit, but I want to make sure it's cool to post about sales like this. I'm actually enjoying the comments and it's really helping me. These mills come up for sale more than I thought.
 

mickri

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#16
Not annoying at all. Keep posting. These are my thoughts The basic mill/drill is worth $500 give or take. The 3 vises depending on brand is around $300. Used end mills are all over the map but I would not pay more that a buck or two apiece and only then if they appear to be in good condition. My last garage sale find was a coffee can full for $10. In my humble and unknowledgeable opinion I prefer ER collets over the 5c collets in the picture. Why? because I can use them on my lathe and the mill/drill. I paid around $100 on Ebay for a complete set of ER32 metric collets and mt2 and r8 adapters for the lathe and mill/drill respectively. Don't know what the stuff is in the upper right corner.

I think that the Mill/drill in Buelton for $250 is the best deal that has been posted so far. Any word back from that seller? It is worth the drive.

Not to change to subject but did you hear back from the seller of the lathe down in Warner Springs?
 

ARC-170

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#17
Not annoying at all. Keep posting. These are my thoughts The basic mill/drill is worth $500 give or take. The 3 vises depending on brand is around $300. Used end mills are all over the map but I would not pay more that a buck or two apiece and only then if they appear to be in good condition. My last garage sale find was a coffee can full for $10. In my humble and unknowledgeable opinion I prefer ER collets over the 5c collets in the picture. Why? because I can use them on my lathe and the mill/drill. I paid around $100 on Ebay for a complete set of ER32 metric collets and mt2 and r8 adapters for the lathe and mill/drill respectively. Don't know what the stuff is in the upper right corner.

I think that the Mill/drill in Buelton for $250 is the best deal that has been posted so far. Any word back from that seller? It is worth the drive.

Not to change to subject but did you hear back from the seller of the lathe down in Warner Springs?
I will keep posting! I appreciate all the help.
So you think about $850, huh? I hesitate to offer less than half of the asking price; people tend to be insulted. Not that I care, but I want them to work with me. Maybe I'll offer anyway and see what they say. It's only about 30 minutes away, so that helps.

I just talked with the Mill/Drill seller in Buellton. The top is missing and one handle broke off (he has it, I think) because they got damaged in shipping. He uses it to drill metal. He doesn't know if it will take a collet at all because it's always had the drill chuck in it. He bought it used from someone else. He bought a BP so he's selling this. I asked him to take a few more close-up pictures so I can research what it might need.

I did not hear from the seller (Enco lathe, right?) despite sending a few emails.
 

ARC-170

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UPDATE:
I talked to the seller. He's a gunsmith and machinist selling it for a friend who wanted to get into machining. This friend never used it. He bought it from some guy (was in the Navy) who bought it new (in 1994, I think), used it a few times, then died of old age.
He told me it's "like new". I told him that the price was on the high side and said I'd offer around $1,000 based on seeing ones that are not as nice sell for less than that. He told me it has "nice" vises. I didn't ask what brand. He reiterated that it's just like the $4,000 one, but he couldn't tell me which Rong Fu it was similar to. Seems like he should know that if he's as experienced as he says. He has people coming tomorrow to look at it. I told him if they don't buy it to call me. I also told him to pass on my offer to his friend. He says he will, but he's not sure his friend is going to go for it. He says the first person to give him a wad of cash gets it. Sounds like all the usual script that people say! Ha!

However, am I off base here? This is yet another mill that's priced really high based on the seller thinking they "know what they have". The cheaper ones ($500 +or -) get snapped up really quick, so the "ideal" list price is maybe around $1,000 or less, with the actual sell price being in the $500-$800 range perhaps. I offer what I think it fair and they don't even counter, except to say they know what it's worth. I've asked sellers of the ones I didn't get what they sold it for and they were all in the sub-$1,000 range. I want to offer a fair price, but maybe I'm being unrealistic?[/QUOTE]

--------------------
Here's another one. Thoughts?:
Extremely well made Enco (1994 Taiwan built) mill drill. Almost like new. Comparable to Jet mill drill @ $4000 plus. (See https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/35295237). The bed is 24" x9", twelve speed belt drive, two horse single phase motor. It comes with three vices and a lot of misc tooling that would cost around $1000. The mill and tooling have had very little use and have been very well cared for. It's a steal at $2000. Complete with tooling, cabinet and chip pan

View attachment 278900 View attachment 278901 View attachment 278902

Motor has a date stamp of 199X (can't read the last number at all in the picture). Seems a bit on the high side, but it looks like it's in good shape. I can get a Grizzly (G0705 with stand) for around $2,000 delivered. How much is the tooling (vise, bits, etc) really worth? A vise, collet set and bits are about $500 delivered. What are those bits in the upper right?
I'm thinking this mill package is worth more like $1,000-$1,300. Thoughts?
 

mickri

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#19
These mill/drills typically have an R8 spindle and whatever is in the spindle is held in place with a drawbar. A drawbar is a fancy name for a threaded rod that goes down through the quill and screws into what is in the spindle to keep it in place. My best guess is that the drill chuck has an R8 arbor. Personally I would not worry about not having a top. The pulleys are way up in the air. I have to stand on a step stool to change the belts. I don't have the top on my mill/drill. It would take some elbow grease to clean up the $250 mill/drill. I would find out what it has in tooling that comes with it. In the 3rd picture you can see a handle, a rotary base for the vise, a bunch of T nuts and what appears to be bolts and hold downs. If all he uses it for is to drill holes there probably isn't much in the way of tooling.

Hard to say what the $2000 mill/drill might be worth. It is bright and shiny and does not appear to have any problems. If all the tooling is shown in the pictures it does not have much in the way of tooling. All depends on how much of a premium you are willing to pay for bright and shiny. I am retired and a card carrying member of the independently poor. So I watch my pennies pretty closely. I rarely pay for bright and shiny.

To compare the two I would make a spread sheet with what I would want in the way of tooling in the first column. In the 2nd column I would list what the $2000 mill/drill has and in the 3rd column the cost to add what is missing. In the 4th and 5th columns I would do the same for the $250 mill/drill.

It will be interesting to see what you finally end up with.
 

ARC-170

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#20
These mill/drills typically have an R8 spindle and whatever is in the spindle is held in place with a drawbar. A drawbar is a fancy name for a threaded rod that goes down through the quill and screws into what is in the spindle to keep it in place. My best guess is that the drill chuck has an R8 arbor. Personally I would not worry about not having a top. The pulleys are way up in the air. I have to stand on a step stool to change the belts. I don't have the top on my mill/drill. It would take some elbow grease to clean up the $250 mill/drill. I would find out what it has in tooling that comes with it. In the 3rd picture you can see a handle, a rotary base for the vise, a bunch of T nuts and what appears to be bolts and hold downs. If all he uses it for is to drill holes there probably isn't much in the way of tooling.

Hard to say what the $2000 mill/drill might be worth. It is bright and shiny and does not appear to have any problems. If all the tooling is shown in the pictures it does not have much in the way of tooling. All depends on how much of a premium you are willing to pay for bright and shiny. I am retired and a card carrying member of the independently poor. So I watch my pennies pretty closely. I rarely pay for bright and shiny.

To compare the two I would make a spread sheet with what I would want in the way of tooling in the first column. In the 2nd column I would list what the $2000 mill/drill has and in the 3rd column the cost to add what is missing. In the 4th and 5th columns I would do the same for the $250 mill/drill.

It will be interesting to see what you finally end up with.
Good idea! Do I need to add anything to this list? Where's a good source to price these out?:
4" vise
end mill set
collet set (1/8"-1/2")
parallel set
123 blocks
clamping kit
dial test indicator
dial indicator (I have one)
fly cutter
drill chuck
center drills
drill bits (I have a set of these, but listed them so you'd know I didn't forget them)
boring head
angle block set
 

mikey

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#21
UPDATE:
I talked to the seller. He's a gunsmith and machinist selling it for a friend who wanted to get into machining. This friend never used it. He bought it from some guy (was in the Navy) who bought it new (in 1994, I think), used it a few times, then died of old age.
He told me it's "like new". I told him that the price was on the high side and said I'd offer around $1,000 based on seeing ones that are not as nice sell for less than that. He told me it has "nice" vises. I didn't ask what brand. He reiterated that it's just like the $4,000 one, but he couldn't tell me which Rong Fu it was similar to. Seems like he should know that if he's as experienced as he says. He has people coming tomorrow to look at it. I told him if they don't buy it to call me. I also told him to pass on my offer to his friend. He says he will, but he's not sure his friend is going to go for it. He says the first person to give him a wad of cash gets it. Sounds like all the usual script that people say! Ha!
Are you referring to the mill in post #15? If so, that is an RF-31/31 with what looks like an import vise. The additional two vises he is referring to are also not worth much - one small one in the main vise and one drill press vise. The tooling looks like some import R8 collets, some dowel plug cutters, assorted woodworking stuff and some end mills of unknown quality. All told, it might be worth $100 - 150 or so, to me at least.

The RF-31 sold for about $1800 back when they bought it new and he is asking for more than that, just because it has some tooling of dubious/unknown quality. This "gunsmith and machinist" is dreaming and is waiting for some shmuck with too much money and without the HM forum behind him to come along and swallow his rhetoric.

I would price this mill at $850 + 150 for the tooling and anything else that goes with it, so maybe $1000 - 1100 all in. For that, you get an 800# mill capable of doing some good work. If he balks, walk on. If he counters, your call but I would not pay more than $1200 for a 20 year old RF-31, even if it is in near new condition. Because one of these mill/drills is "like new" does not mean it is going to run as well as it can. The stock bearings are cheap and rarely maintained and most owners rarely grease and adjust them the way they need to be. You still need to tear it down, clean it up, fix whatever needs fixing and maybe replace the bearings. Then you'll have a mill. Fortunately, a Taiwanese RF-31 is simple to work on and is built to a much better standard than the Chinese equivalent.

One final thing. The spindle in these machines is still available but costs about $145.00 so look up inside the taper to be sure it isn't beat up and check the concentricity of the machine if you can.
 

mickri

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#22
For the collets you need to decide which type of collets you want to use. This will have a big influence on price. And ease of use. The most common choice seems to be between ER collets verses 5C collets. And in ER collets whether to get imperial or metric.

In making this decision I went with ER32 metric collets. The pros that I saw in ER32 metric collets were: No gaps in the clamping range. Each collet has a 1mm clamping range and a full set goes from 2mm to 21mm. Can be used on both the lathe (headstock and tailstock) and mill/drill. 5C collets cannot be used in the tailstock on the lathe. Ease of use in that with 5C collets you have to loosen and tighten the collet with the drawbar every time you change tools or collet size. With ER collets you just have to unscrew the collet nut to change tools or collets. When used on the lathe headstock the work piece can pass through the spindle with ER collets. Can't do that with 5C collets. With careful planning you rarely have to move the head of the mill/drill when changing tooling with ER collets. This is a big deal on a mill/drill. And because the lathe will have morris tapers whereas the mill/drill with have R8 tapers you will need two sets of 5C collets. One to fit the lathe and one to fit the mill/drill.

As to where to get prices you will have to shop around.
 

C-Bag

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#23
As to collets, it is set up for R8 so I see no reason to for other collets like ER or5c. I went an extensive set of R8 up to 3/4" and screw length (short) drills in fractional and numbered. With the big set of collets I pretty much eliminated the #1 reason to have to change head height, a drill chuck. I have to change collets for the different drills but at least I don't lose index on the part through changing height. Yeah, not as quick as a knee mill, whatever. Point being most of these " deals" dont include any complete sets of anything that will be useful. And I think this ploy of looking up present prices for 20yrld machines is silly.
 

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#24
UPDATE:
The $250 mill/drill in Buellton got sold. He was supposed to send me more pics and I was going to go up today or tomorrow, pending him telling me his schedule. I texted him and it was sold! DOH!

I heard back from the seller of the Enco in post #15. I emailed him to ask if he sold it and at what price:

As I feared, I had two no shows. It’s happened before, so it’s to be expected.

I talked to Charlie about the price being too high. He suggested we sell it without the extra attachments and vices but with only the usual accessories. Then we can sell the other stuff later. I’m going to advertise the mill with standard mill vice, drill chuck and key for $1400. Considering it’s condition, that should be more than a fair price. A comparable new mill would probably be the Jet #35007 @$2200 and no cabinet. The cabinets are over$400. But I believe that one is Chinese made. Most Chinese stuff is junk, IMO.

If you’re still interested, call me ASAP. I need to find out when Charlie is available.



My reply:
Hi, Ron. Thanks for getting back to me. I'm interested, but I can get a comparable Grizzly new with a cabinet for $1,800 delivered. Yours is 24 years old. It's nice, but the bearings were cheap on those and no telling if they've been lubed. This is based on what I know and what my machinists friends have told me. This is a Rong Fu clone and those are in the $600-$800 range. I'll come get it today if you want to sell it to me for $700.

His reply:
Thanks, we'll pass.

He got back to me real quick! At least he knows I'm interested. I think $1400 is way too much and I think his comparison mill is not really one that someone would look at if they are looking at this mill. I saw them, saw the price and passed, especially when I found the Grizzly and saw used ones available for less. I really hope he realizes that anyone looking for a mill like this will see the Grizzly and use that as a comparison. I think $900 max as a final offer. It's half of new and the machine IS in pretty good shape. Thoughts?
 

mikey

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#25
That machine is worth $1000 - 1100 with the machine vise. The rest of the tooling can be bought when your budget allows. I would call him and counter with whatever you can handle.
 

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#26
What about this one? I contacted the seller. It's a hobbyist selling off his stuff. Asking price is $925. Comes with tooling, but they didn't specify what. They said they have a few people coming to look at it. I'd go today, but I have to be home for a soccer game.
enco mill with DRO.jpg
 

mikey

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#27
Also an RF-30/31. Rusty but looks little used. Might be worth a look if made in Taiwan.
 

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#28
Also an RF-30/31. Rusty but looks little used. Might be worth a look if made in Taiwan.
It is made in Taiwan. I forgot to mention that.
 

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#29
Looks like it has a DRO as well.
 

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