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ER32 Fail (Learn from my mistakes)

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xxxx_guy

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#1
I am a rank beginner. My ER32 collets and holder have turned up in the mail. Tried to put them together however the collets didn't appear to go into the holder far enough to allow me to thread the collet holder nut on. Googled the dimensions of the ER32 collets, measured the collets and the holder. Thought the holder was about 1mm (0.04 inch) underbored. Put the collet holder in the lathe, trying to figure out the best way to bore it a little further out. Thought about returning it to Ebay. One more google and I found out that the collet is actually meant to click into the collet holder nut before you try and thread the nut on thereby giving the extra room (Facepalm). Thankfully my final google before doing drastic measures solved my problem. Hopefully some other beginners may learn from my mistakes. On the plus side I've now fitted an end mill onto my milling machine, tried it out on some scrap structural steel and very happy with the results. Will set about making some T-nuts for my first project (currently using clamps to clamp material to the table of the milling machine).
 

Downunder Bob

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I am a rank beginner. My ER32 collets and holder have turned up in the mail. Tried to put them together however the collets didn't appear to go into the holder far enough to allow me to thread the collet holder nut on. Googled the dimensions of the ER32 collets, measured the collets and the holder. Thought the holder was about 1mm (0.04 inch) underbored. Put the collet holder in the lathe, trying to figure out the best way to bore it a little further out. Thought about returning it to Ebay. One more google and I found out that the collet is actually meant to click into the collet holder nut before you try and thread the nut on thereby giving the extra room (Facepalm). Thankfully my final google before doing drastic measures solved my problem. Hopefully some other beginners may learn from my mistakes. On the plus side I've now fitted an end mill onto my milling machine, tried it out on some scrap structural steel and very happy with the results. Will set about making some T-nuts for my first project (currently using clamps to clamp material to the table of the milling machine).
That is a classic mistake made by many beginners. Most things are good to go when you get them, if it don't fit, have another look before you mess it up,

You are in the right place here. a very friendly forum and lots of experienced people here to help you learn, Remember the only dumb question is the one you didn't ask.

What machines do you have? and what sort of things do you plan to make?
 
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#3
You are not the first to make that mistake and you won'e be the last. As Bob said, you are in the right place. Welcome aboard.

"Billy G"
 

Ray C

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I am a rank beginner. My ER32 collets and holder have turned up in the mail. Tried to put them together however the collets didn't appear to go into the holder far enough to allow me to thread the collet holder nut on. Googled the dimensions of the ER32 collets, measured the collets and the holder. Thought the holder was about 1mm (0.04 inch) underbored. Put the collet holder in the lathe, trying to figure out the best way to bore it a little further out. Thought about returning it to Ebay. One more google and I found out that the collet is actually meant to click into the collet holder nut before you try and thread the nut on thereby giving the extra room (Facepalm). Thankfully my final google before doing drastic measures solved my problem. Hopefully some other beginners may learn from my mistakes. On the plus side I've now fitted an end mill onto my milling machine, tried it out on some scrap structural steel and very happy with the results. Will set about making some T-nuts for my first project (currently using clamps to clamp material to the table of the milling machine).

The Force is strong in this one!

Good job.

Just as a reminder to folks, be careful about some of those really bargain-bin, low-cost ER32 collet chucks. I just purchased one with an R8 shank (to use on my other mill) and it's an absolute piece of junk. TIR measuring from the internal collet taper averages about 0.006" (six thou, not six tenths-thou) depending on how it's seated. I thought for a moment my spindle was bent but, a good quality ER40-R8 in that same mill repeatably measures 0.0004" TIR. Sigh of relief!!!

At $26, it's not worth my time/trouble to return it. It's a nice piece of steel and maybe I'll "re-purpose" it.

Anyhow xxxx_guy, good job and thanks for sharing.


Ray
 

David S

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#5
Yes I actually damaged the nut when I first got my smaller set. I didn't have a clue about how they worked. Perhaps that is why the sell replacement nuts :).

David
 

ttabbal

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#6
TIR measuring from the internal collet taper averages about 0.006" (six thou, not six tenths-thou) depending on how it's seated. I thought for a moment my spindle was bent but, a good quality ER40-R8 in that same mill repeatably measures 0.0004" TIR. Sigh of relief!!!
It's frustrating, particularly for a newbie, to see this sort of thing. I bet they advertised it as 2-4 tenths TIR, right? It makes it really difficult to figure out what might be a decent tool for a hobby user that can't spend a thousand or so on a chuck. If it weren't for this site mentioning things like this, I would have wasted precious tool funds on crap that doesn't work. Instead, I waited longer and spent a little more. And I know to double check TIR while still in the return window, particularly for more expensive parts.
 

JPMacG

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#7
Since we're on the subject... What are some good hobbyist-quality brands to look for? I'm thinking of getting an ER32 collet nut and some collets for my lathe. I would make the holder myself.
 

Ray C

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#8
It's frustrating, particularly for a newbie, to see this sort of thing. I bet they advertised it as 2-4 tenths TIR, right? It makes it really difficult to figure out what might be a decent tool for a hobby user that can't spend a thousand or so on a chuck. If it weren't for this site mentioning things like this, I would have wasted precious tool funds on crap that doesn't work. Instead, I waited longer and spent a little more. And I know to double check TIR while still in the return window, particularly for more expensive parts.
The one I purchased on eBay had no tolerance specs -and that's the problem. The majority of the units on eBay and Amazon cost between $25 to $60 and they all seem to be the same unit. They are hit-or-miss junk.

I finally went with a Glacern (GMT) brand that cited tolerance concentricity specs between the R8 taper and Collet Taper. My original unit (on the other mill) is from Shars and for years, it's been running at basically Zero runout.

An issue that beginners face is knowing how to measure. Reading off the outside body is meaningless. With these types of chucks, I recommend installing on machine then TIR measurement taken from inside the taper (without a collet inserted). Next, take a known set of collets and insert several different size (undamaged) shafts and measure TIR. From this, you can establish a level of understanding. If you don't get good readings, remove, wipe everything down, re-install and check again. From this, you will learn the capabilities of the device.

Note: the oblong ring inside the cap is needed to pop the collet out when the cap is unscrewed. Without that, collets would get stuck in the taper.

When unscrewing the cap of an ER collet, put a rag underneath the tool. The cap will eventually pop the collet free from the taper and your carbide endmill will either chip your table, chip itself or chip your workpiece. (Trust me on this last bit of experience).

Ray
 

Ken from ontario

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#9
If you have it in your mind to use the collets to hold drill bits as well as end mills, you need good quality collets and of all sizes both metric and imperial, this way you leave the collet chuck in the mill and just switch the collets when you change the bits.
 

cjtoombs

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#10
Well, I think you probably made the same mistake as me, and every other person who had never seen an ER collet and holder when they first try that :). On the plus side, most of those Chinese tools are so hard, you probably would not have been able to cut it anyway. I suspect that has probably saved a lot of them.
 

mikey

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#11
Since we're on the subject... What are some good hobbyist-quality brands to look for? I'm thinking of getting an ER32 collet nut and some collets for my lathe. I would make the holder myself.
If you're going to use the collets on a lathe then I suggest you buy a complete Chinese set on ebay. You do not need to go with quality collets for work holding on the lathe; import collets will be close enough for most work. Using a good nut will help accuracy, even with these cheap collets.

If you are using the collets on the mill for tool holding then buy the best you can afford. The cheapest "good" collets I know of are the Techniks brand; runout in the low tenths and possibly better if the chuck and the nut are good. In order of cost, Lyndex, Crawford, ETM and Rego-Fix are other good brands.

Buy a decent nut because it makes a difference. Rego-Fix Hi-Q nuts are very, very good. ETM nuts are just as good. I have not tried them but Techniks is said to make a good hardened nut. Rego-Fix also makes a ball bearing nut that I haven't tried ... yet.

I use a 3 jaw chuck to do first operation turning on the lathe. I only use the ER collets to hold turned or threaded parts for second operations. This gives you accuracy when you need it and you aren't cranking down on stock that is uneven. For the occasions where I have a lot of nominal stock to turn, I use 5C collets that are intended for such work.
 

Ray C

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#12
Mike (Mikey) raises a good point. On the mill, you want your tool holding devices to be as true as possible. On a lathe, it's less critical. An endmill takes a severe beating while doing it's job. If the holder is not spinning the cutting bit true, it's causing an extra dimension of abuse to that tool. Spinning at 1000 RPM with say 0.006" TIR, causes repetitive damage each time the cutter has to slam into the material again. It's also putting continuous internal bending strains on the tool. Tool life will be greatly diminished. This is like having a continuous interrupted cut on a lathe. On a lathe, if the work piece is not perfectly true, it will be after the first pass.

As for the Glacern ER32/R8 chuck... It has not arrived so, I cannot comment on it's quality. It at least cited tolerances specs and was in stock on their main website. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Yes, as budget permits and as needs/desires motivate, a set of both SAE and metric collets is worth considering. It really helps to use the closest size possible.

Ray
 

xxxx_guy

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#13
Thanks for your replies. I've attached a few photos of me attaching a collet correctly and incorrectly in order to help some newbs, like myself.
Photos 1 and 2 show the ER Collet correctly installed in the holder (it should click in with the area between the front and back slopes clicking into the nut). Photos 3,4,5, & 6 show the collet incorrectly installed (hasn't been clicked into the holder nut). Photo 7 shows the ER collet holder nut (the internal rim is where the collet clicks into).
As for Ebay items, they are usually cheap without specs, some are great others are nasty. It all depends on the project in regards to tolerances. I may be making an arm to replace a broken arm on a 3 in 1 press brake, guilotine and rollers which will need to be within a few millimeters (about 0.1 of an inch - adjustment available), whilst another project I contemplate is trying to make an indexed head, whereby the more accuracy the better. However what Ray C is talking about ultimately causes only 1 cutter to contact the surface instead of multiple heads, so the one head wears out way quicker, and the machine has considerably vibration as it essentially hits, misses, misses, misses (depending on the number of edges on the cutter) then hits again, so the rate of advancement into the surface has to be greatly reduced or the vibration greatly increases since one head is doing the depth of cutting of multiple heads. I have experienced this with a machine made to grind back welds in corners. Not sure if it is the bit or the machine, but it is handheld and jumps because only one surface is contacting the weld and taking all the force rather than all the cutter surfaces evenly.
 

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25ring

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#14
The Force is strong in this one!

Good job.

Just as a reminder to folks, be careful about some of those really bargain-bin, low-cost ER32 collet chucks. I just purchased one with an R8 shank (to use on my other mill) and it's an absolute piece of junk. TIR measuring from the internal collet taper averages about 0.006" (six thou, not six tenths-thou) depending on how it's seated. I thought for a moment my spindle was bent but, a good quality ER40-R8 in that same mill repeatably measures 0.0004" TIR. Sigh of relief!!!

At $26, it's not worth my time/trouble to return it. It's a nice piece of steel and maybe I'll "re-purpose" it.

Anyhow xxxx_guy, good job and thanks for sharing.


Ray
You might want to reconsider on returning it.I bought the exact same one with the same problem through ebay,seller paid for the return shipping and refunded my money. FWIW
 

RJSakowski

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#15
Regarding loading an ER collet, the collet should always be inserted into the nut first.

I come in at angle with a slight rotation to capture the collet. If the collet has been loaded correctly, it will not fall out when the nut is inverted. Then I insert the assembly into the chuck body and tighten a turn or two to capture the assembly. Then I insert the tool or workpiece and tighten.
 

Ray C

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You might want to reconsider on returning it.I bought the exact same one with the same problem through ebay,seller paid for the return shipping and refunded my money. FWIW
Must have been a different seller. After initiating the return request, the seller has asked for pictures, asked for barcodes (which do not exist), asked for procedures on how I took measurements etc. So far, I've given him a good machine-shop lesson. I sent him the same information I posted in this thread. https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/diagnosing-bad-er32-r8-collet-chuck.68829/ The seller is offering to refund $5 to the paypal account. The eBay ad says full refund and full return shipping. I'm having a fun exchange with the seller. My last response was "Why would I be satisfied with $5.00 refund when I paid $27?".

I got bigger fish to fry but, plan to continue talking to this seller. Normally, I don't pursue refunds on small amounts. This unit is pure junk and it bugs me when unsuspecting hobbyists buy stuff like this and spend hours trying to figure-out what the heck is wrong.

Here's the seller and picture of unit. It's the same unit sold by many, many different sellers.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-3-R8-ER3...m=222763079394&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507
Ray
 

25ring

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Must have been a different seller. After initiating the return request, the seller has asked for pictures, asked for barcodes (which do not exist), asked for procedures on how I took measurements etc. So far, I've given him a good machine-shop lesson. I sent him the same information I posted in this thread. https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/diagnosing-bad-er32-r8-collet-chuck.68829/ The seller is offering to refund $5 to the paypal account. The eBay ad says full refund and full return shipping. I'm having a fun exchange with the seller. My last response was "Why would I be satisfied with $5.00 refund when I paid $27?".

I got bigger fish to fry but, plan to continue talking to this seller. Normally, I don't pursue refunds on small amounts. This unit is pure junk and it bugs me when unsuspecting hobbyists buy stuff like this and spend hours trying to figure-out what the heck is wrong.

Here's the seller and picture of unit. It's the same unit sold by many, many different sellers.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-3-R8-ER32-7-16-Collet-Chuck-Holder-16CM-CNC-Milling-Lathe-Tool-With-Wrench/222763079394?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160727114228&meid=65eb4143d762402181a8c8a892b1e573&pid=100290&rk=1&rkt=4&sd=222763079394&itm=222763079394&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507
Ray
RayC,I agree,it may not be worth your time to persue,but I'm retired so I would have no problem going after people like this.I hope you can get ebay envolved and get the full amount refunded,good luck!--Mike.
 

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#18
The Force is strong in this one!

Good job.

Just as a reminder to folks, be careful about some of those really bargain-bin, low-cost ER32 collet chucks. I just purchased one with an R8 shank (to use on my other mill) and it's an absolute piece of junk. TIR measuring from the internal collet taper averages about 0.006" (six thou, not six tenths-thou) depending on how it's seated. I thought for a moment my spindle was bent but, a good quality ER40-R8 in that same mill repeatably measures 0.0004" TIR. Sigh of relief!!!

At $26, it's not worth my time/trouble to return it. It's a nice piece of steel and maybe I'll "re-purpose" it.

Anyhow xxxx_guy, good job and thanks for sharing.


Ray

Ray frequently when I have bought a low dollar item and had a problem, I have calmly described the problem with seller and asked them how they would like to proceed. The guys from China on ebay usual
 

Doubleeboy

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I have bought ER chucks out of China on aliexpress or banggood and the sellers gave specs on runout. Not balanced to 20,000 rpm but pretty nice stuff for $30 delivered. Less than a thou of runout on end of dowel pin mounted on machine. I can live with that. At one third the cost of buying one from Shars, I figured I took my chances and if I had to toss one it would be a cheap lesson learned.
 

Ray C

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Ray frequently when I have bought a low dollar item and had a problem, I have calmly described the problem with seller and asked them how they would like to proceed. The guys from China on ebay usual
This is no great concern at all and I originally, simply requested a return of defective material. The seller came back over several days wanting detailed problem descriptions, pictures, measuring techniques etc... I've been going along with it. At no time ever did I say anything mean or demeaning. -That's not how I do business. Because of his reluctance to just settle with a return/refund, I suspect this guy is a scammer and my gut feeling is that he knows he's selling a batch of QC reject devices. He's trying to push this past the 30 day refund period. It's already been 2 weeks.

A great deal of the equipment in my shop is lower-cost Asian stuff and the vast majority of it has proven to be a good value... Good heavens, my part-time shop would sink in a heartbeat without this low cost stuff.

Ray
 

Downunder Bob

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#21
This is no great concern at all and I originally, simply requested a return of defective material. The seller came back over several days wanting detailed problem descriptions, pictures, measuring techniques etc... I've been going along with it. At no time ever did I say anything mean or demeaning. -That's not how I do business. Because of his reluctance to just settle with a return/refund, I suspect this guy is a scammer and my gut feeling is that he knows he's selling a batch of QC reject devices. He's trying to push this past the 30 day refund period. It's already been 2 weeks.

A great deal of the equipment in my shop is lower-cost Asian stuff and the vast majority of it has proven to be a good value... Good heavens, my part-time shop would sink in a heartbeat without this low cost stuff.

Ray
If the seller won't play ball, instead of wasting your time, just put in a complaint with eBay, they will follow it up, and if the goods do not fit the description, they will make him refund full price and possibly even postage. I have done this and it works. Also if you paid with PayPal they have certain guarantees so check with them.
 

Ray C

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#22
Mike (Mikey) raises a good point. On the mill, you want your tool holding devices to be as true as possible. On a lathe, it's less critical. An endmill takes a severe beating while doing it's job. If the holder is not spinning the cutting bit true, it's causing an extra dimension of abuse to that tool. Spinning at 1000 RPM with say 0.006" TIR, causes repetitive damage each time the cutter has to slam into the material again. It's also putting continuous internal bending strains on the tool. Tool life will be greatly diminished. This is like having a continuous interrupted cut on a lathe. On a lathe, if the work piece is not perfectly true, it will be after the first pass.

As for the Glacern ER32/R8 chuck... It has not arrived so, I cannot comment on it's quality. It at least cited tolerances specs and was in stock on their main website. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Yes, as budget permits and as needs/desires motivate, a set of both SAE and metric collets is worth considering. It really helps to use the closest size possible.

Ray
All,

As a quick follow-up, the Glacern ER32/R8 chuck arrived the other day. It's very good quality and runs in the same level of tolerance as mentioned in this post about this ER40 chuck. https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/decent-er40-r8-collet-chuck-and-collets.68962/ Even though they are from different vendors and manufacturers, they are running neck-and-neck about the same.

I am not affiliated in any way with these vendors. Also, the results I'm citing are from one-time purchases and don't know if their QC is good over the long haul. Given the good attention to detail and craftsmanship, I tend to think both manufacturers know what they are doing...

As for the eBay vendor who sold me a bad unit... I cannot get him to ask the manufacturer to cite any tolerance specs. Also, the vendor is only offering a $10 refund -which (in my opinion) is poor business and in poor taste.

Ray
 

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All,

As a quick follow-up, the Glacern ER32/R8 chuck arrived the other day. It's very good quality and runs in the same level of tolerance as mentioned in this post about this ER40 chuck. https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/decent-er40-r8-collet-chuck-and-collets.68962/ Even though they are from different vendors and manufacturers, they are running neck-and-neck about the same.

I am not affiliated in any way with these vendors. Also, the results I'm citing are from one-time purchases and don't know if their QC is good over the long haul. Given the good attention to detail and craftsmanship, I tend to think both manufacturers know what they are doing...

As for the eBay vendor who sold me a bad unit... I cannot get him to ask the manufacturer to cite any tolerance specs. Also, the vendor is only offering a $10 refund -which (in my opinion) is poor business and in poor taste.

Ray
Did the vendor make any claims as to quality and or accuracy when you bought it? If it doesn't meet those claims then eBay and or Pay Pal will follow it up for you.
 

Ray C

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#24
Did the vendor make any claims as to quality and or accuracy when you bought it? If it doesn't meet those claims then eBay and or Pay Pal will follow it up for you.
In the original listing (which has subsequently been changed) it said "Adjust tool if runout exceeds 0.0004 inch".

Anyhow, what matters to me is this seller is selling junk and given all my correspondence with them, they know it is. I asked him if he could sell one that runs less than 0.001" TIR and he won't commit to that. This tells me he's probably had similar complaints, and that whole lot is bad, and won't take a chance on sending another.

I could write a bad product review for it but, eBay vendors can take those down any time they want.
 

Downunder Bob

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#25
That's interesting I didn't know they could take down a bad revue. Most sellers will prefer to negotiate if you tell them your going to give a bad revue. Try putting it in the feed back.
 

chris.trotter

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#26
Ha, thanks, I have an ER32 collet and did not know that. Makes a lot of sense now!
 

Bob Korves

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#27
If the seller won't play ball, instead of wasting your time, just put in a complaint with eBay, they will follow it up, and if the goods do not fit the description, they will make him refund full price and possibly even postage. I have done this and it works. Also if you paid with PayPal they have certain guarantees so check with them.
If we do not keep the sellers honest, and let them get away with poor business practices, then things will keep getting worse, and we will only have ourselves to blame. Do not accept anything that does not come as represented, regardless of price or the seller dragging his feet. We must insist on a transparent and fair buying experience or take our business elsewhere.
 

Downunder Bob

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#28
If we do not keep the sellers honest, and let them get away with poor business practices, then things will keep getting worse, and we will only have ourselves to blame. Do not accept anything that does not come as represented, regardless of price or the seller dragging his feet. We must insist on a transparent and fair buying experience or take our business elsewhere.
Absolutely even if you think it's only a few dollars, take your complaint to the highest level, the main reason we get so much rubbish foisted on us is we don't complain enough. There is a generally accepted standard for ER collets, even the cheapest should conform to that standard.
 

Ray C

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#29
Well, here's the product review given after not hearing from the seller after my last request for full refund or replacement with a non-defective unit.
I'm not sure if my review is published yet.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-3-R8-ER3...C-Milling-Lathe-Tool-With-Wrench/222763079394

As measured from the ER32 collet taper surface, this ran with varying TIR between 0.004 to 0.009". Different TIR each time it was installed in mill. The R8 taper is not cut properly and only makes contact in one area. The drawbar end measures 0.944" which 0.005" shy of the R8 specification. That dimension is critical to help the taper seat properly. Other known good R8 devices in this mill run with less than 0.0003" TIR. Mill is in perfect condition. TIR was so bad with this chuck, it can be seen by eye, w/o measuring tools.

The ER32 orifice shows very bad chatter marks and feels uneven to fingertip touch. With a known set of good ER32 collets, pin gages were measuring as much as 0.011" TIR -enough to break cutting tools.

Unit was shipped promptly -no problem there. Unused item. Requested refund or replacement. Seller first offered refund of $5 then finally $10. See photos: Seller gets this product review in-lieu of giving full refund or replacement with non-defective unit.

IMG_20180412_212709.jpg IMG_20180413_204433.jpg IMG_20180413_204551.jpg
 

mikey

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#30
Ray, per ebay rules, if the item is not as described the seller has to give you a full refund plus pay shipping back to him. This is not open for debate by the seller. If he refuses, get ebay involved and they will resolve it. There is no way you should have to deal with this.
 
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