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ER40 collet chuck

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dtsh

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#1
I had made mention a few months back that I was working on making an ER40 collect chuck for the spindle of my lathe. I finished it tonight; however, I am unsatisfied with the result and will make a second attempt at making a better one.

The main reason I think it's a failure was that I managed to cut the internal threads for the spindle a bit too large, leaving more slop in the threads than I'm comfortable with. I've not made many projects on a lathe since high school. It's not a complete failure as I've certainly gained some knowledge and I suspect I can salvage it as a hex collect block.

The bar is oddly shaped, mostly round'ish with some flat spots. Imagine half a hex bar joined to half a round bar, but kinda lopsided and you're close to the shape. The 3 jaw chuck is too small to hold the piece, so I center drilled it for an arbor. I superglued the arbor in place, chucked it up and started working on it.

It was, for the most part, pretty straight forward. I bored out one end to fit the spindle, using a plug guage I'd prepared earlier for comparison. Cutting internal threads was a first for me and while the threadform came out fine, I overshot the maximum for 1 7/16-12 and ended up producing a loose fitting part. I had considered boring it out and sleeving it, but it would have made for thinner walls in a press-fit part than I felt comfortable attempting, so I pressed on knowing that this was now just a dress rehearsal and I'd have to start all over.

I set my compund to cut an 8 degree taper and mounted the collect chuck to the spindle and bored out the other end to accept an ER40 collet. As I closed in on the final size, I checked the fit of a collet and decided to adjust my compound slightly to make a nice fit.

It was also the first time cutting metric threads, M50 x 1.5, so I wasn't sure what to expect. I wrote a ruby script to calculate change gears and settled on 78t, 30t/18t, 66t as the best match, yielding a pitch of roughly 1.501 - close enough. The calculated change gears produced a thread that matches the nut quite well. I was very happy with that part of it.

er40_spindle1.jpg

er40_spindle2.jpg

er40_spindle3.jpg


Now I've got to try this again, this time with a little more experience. The issue with the spindle threads aside, I think it turned out well.

I had repeated issues with chatter, which I think was from my HSS bits being improperly ground.
 
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warrjon

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#2
Good job, I like ER collets as they have a wide holding range.
 

Tozguy

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#3
I'd say that for a first try that you did real good. I made three ER chucks before getting it right.
Allow me to offer a reminder that spindle threads need to be free enough to allow the chuck to register properly on the shoulder of the spindle.
 

dtsh

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#4
I'd say that for a first try that you did real good. I made three ER chucks before getting it right.
Allow me to offer a reminder that spindle threads need to be free enough to allow the chuck to register properly on the shoulder of the spindle.
Thanks fo the reminder, I certainly had them free enough. I doubt there was much contact as until snugged up on the shoulder there was significant play, but I'll keep that in mind for the next try.
 

dtsh

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#5
Worked on this a little, drilled it for an arbor and started getting it from "roundish" to round again. Mostly just focusing on being able to get the steady rest
in there for drilling/boring.

Here's the raw bar
er40_2_001.jpg

and where I ended up stopping for the day.
er40_2_002.jpg

Slow going with the interrupted cut, I managed to slip the belt a few times.
 

Bob Korves

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#6
Spring passes are what get you with internal turning and threading. There is a lot of flex in those bars. When you get roughly close to final dimension, take enough passes for the tool to quit cutting, see what you have, and then proceed slowly, allowing the tool to reach the depth of cut with the spring out. Dull tools make it even more difficult. Import brazed carbide boring bars are also often poorly ground, and rub on the work below the cutting edges. Look for rubbing, you can try Sharpie marks to help find the rubbing. Make sure the tool is sharp and the cutting edge is on center line. If necessary, you can twist the tool down so it is cutting at a negative rake, which gives more clearance on the relief surfaces, helps to stop chatter, and cuts way better than you might imagine (use this only on turning, not threading, unless you regrind the tool, because it will change the thread angle.) If you twist the tool, you must also change the tool height.

Boring bars and similar internal threading tools cause lots of problems with oversize holes and threads due to spring in the tools. Beware of it and pay attention as you get to the final cuts. Solid carbide tools help a lot, but are $$.
 

Suzuki4evr

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#7
Nicely done
 

dtsh

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#8
A little more progress, getting closer to final dimensions on the boring, so will need to go slower from here.
er40_2_003.jpg

And here's the spindle I'm matching, I much appreciate the advice.

er40_spindle.jpg
 

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#9
Greetings dtsh, your chuck is looking good. I wonder if your chatter issues might have to do with using a 115 year old lathe, amazing.
 

dtsh

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No pictures today; there's so little progress just try to imagine the previous pictures with another couple thou removed from the inside. I've been far too busy with numerous other projects and it's only the constant rain which has freed me from other labors to do a little machining during my daily project time.

From various gleanings of the internet and direct measurement of the existing spindle and chucks, I'm shooting for an ID of 1.34. Once there, I will slowly sneak up on the final dimensions. A 1-7/16" spindle seems to be an odd choice and finding recommended tolerances hasn't been as simple as it would be were it a more common size so my plan is to test fit frequently against a copy of the spindle I made some time ago.

According to my calculations for my 12TPI leadscrew, I need to use either my 36t or 46t gear pairs with any idler gear I can fit between them to match the 12TPI threads on the spindle.
Of all the things one can say about this old lathe, a lack of change gears isn't one of them as my full set consists of 18, 24, 26, 30, 36, 36, 42, 44, 46, 46, 54, 60, 66, 72, 78, 84, and 96
 

dtsh

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#11
I've got the boring complete and made the first light passes with a threading tool before calling it quits for the night. During the process, I discovered that the copy of the spindle nose I created a while back is slightly smaller than the actual spindle. At some point I should probably create a new one that is more accurate.
 

dtsh

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#12
After many tests of unthreading the 3-jaw chuck and flipping the assembly to test the collet chuck the threads against the spindle, a good fit was finally achieved.


er40_2_004.jpg

From here on the rest of the machining will be done with it threaded onto the spindle. I have been considering options for attaching a spanner to the chuck body to assist in removal when it gets stuck. I am leaning toward drilling a couple holes for a pin spanner, any advice?

Before I can get to that though, I need to heat it up and remove the arbor which the 3-jaw chuck clamps to.
 

Firstram

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#13
No offense intended but, that is some ugly raw material. There is no way my OCD would let me work on that internal thread without turning the OD round first. Chuck is coming out nice.
 

Tozguy

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#14
Pin spanner was my choice. A dedicated spanner means that you will know where it is when you need it.
PS your raw material looks fine to me.
 

Firstram

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#15
Pin spanner was my choice. A dedicated spanner means that you will NEVER know where it is when you need it.
PS your raw material looks fine to me.
FIFY
 

dtsh

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#16
Eventually I'll turn it round, but I didn't want to invest a lot of time cleaning it up only to make a mistake and have to start over (again). I don't mind ugly, a glance at some of my past girlfriends would easily confirm that I put more emphasis on other criteria before looks!

In my shop it's a guarantee that a 5 minute job will never take less than 10 minutes as I spend at least as much time figuring where I last left whatever tools I need. Sometimes I can measure the time it's been since I worked on a project by how far I have to dig to find what I need. :p
 

Firstram

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#17
In my shop it's a guarantee that a 5 minute job will never take less than 10 minutes as I spend at least as much time figuring where I last left whatever tools I need. Sometimes I can measure the time it's been since I worked on a project by how far I have to dig to find what I need. :p
I can stretch some jobs out too. I'm so paranoid about leaving the key in the chuck, I often walk away with it in my hand to leave it sitting in random places around the shop. As far as your stock goes, my eyes would be drawn to the loping ob-round guaranteeing a lapse in concentration.
 

dtsh

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#18
I can stretch some jobs out too. I'm so paranoid about leaving the key in the chuck, I often walk away with it in my hand to leave it sitting in random places around the shop. As far as your stock goes, my eyes would be drawn to the loping ob-round guaranteeing a lapse in concentration.
I have left the key in the chuck more than a few times; that's one advantage of this lathe, it starts up so slowly (relatively) that even when the chuck gets thrown directly at me it doesn't have enough velocity to do much more than startle and make me feel foolish.


A little more progress. I got the 8deg taper in and need to work on a smoother finish. I still can't seem to get a nice finish, I need to reexamine my cutting tools. That the internal taper is rough isn't surprising considering the boring tools I used has a rather fine point. The main body has been turned as well, so it's looking halfway reasonable now. When I get to it next, it will be time to start turning for the metric threads for the nut.
M50 x 1.5 (external)
Major: 49.968 49.732 (1.9672-1.9579)
Pitch: 48.994 48.894 (1.9289-1.9249)
Minor: 48.344 47.970 (1.9033-1.8885)


I ran my change gear script and compared it with the gears I'd calculated the first time I cut 1.5mm pitch threads and it came up the same, again, these are for my lathe with it's 12TPI leadscrew.

A=78, B=30, C=18, D=66, pitch=1.501 / 16.92tpi (where A is for the spindle, B/C are ganged, and D is on the leadscrew)
 

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Firstram

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#19
Looking good!
 

dtsh

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I managed to get the threading done sooner than expected. It ended up that I hadn't quite centered the stock and a flat spot remained, I consideed turning it down as small as the threads, but ended up deciding to mill the flat smooth and put another flat opposite it so that I can use it with a wrench. I may yet drill it to accept a spanner and have considered making a steel collar for it the same diameter as the nut to accept the same spanner. There's plenty of time to think about that and much more to be done yet.

Here's a view looking in the back at the spindle threads, there's still room to machine it down a bit, some of which will likely disappear as it gets closer to being done.
er40_2_009.jpg

er40_2_008.jpg

er40_2_007.jpg

I pretty happy with it thus far. A quick eyeball for runout shows there's some, but it's rough yet and there's room for improvement.
 

Dabbler

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#21
Great work! Inspiring! I should make me one!
 

Bob Korves

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#22
I can stretch some jobs out too. I'm so paranoid about leaving the key in the chuck, I often walk away with it in my hand to leave it sitting in random places around the shop.
I think that part of the habit with chuck keys needs to end with them in specific places after every use. Every time. It is important that we notice that we are doing something different than usual to set off the alarm bells in our head that something is wrong. I also look at the chuck key in its resting place before pushing the spindle start button. A combination of muscle memory from doing it the same way each time, along with looking at the key, which is not in the chuck, tells us that the chuck key is safe for us to continue. Random actions give random results. I prove it daily, and work on it daily...
 

Boswell

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#23
I also look at the chuck key in its resting place before pushing the spindle start button
GREAT advise Bob. Just like before backing up in your car, you check the mirrors, each machine should have a quick visual check list. Only has to be one or two things. like the chuck key is in the proper storage, nothing is touching the rotating parts that should not be.
Do it EVERY time and it will only take 1/2 second, will become automatic.
 

Dabbler

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#24
When I got my first lathe my mentor impressed on me to build a holder for the T handles in the front of the lathe and the handles only ever leave the hand into the holder. whenever it is out of the holder it is 'welded to my hand'.... never left it in the chuck in nearly 40 years.
 

Bob Korves

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#25
When I got my first lathe my mentor impressed on me to build a holder for the T handles in the front of the lathe and the handles only ever leave the hand into the holder. whenever it is out of the holder it is 'welded to my hand'.... never left it in the chuck in nearly 40 years.
My lathe also has several chuck handles. They are all kept in the same area, behind the chuck, close to each other. All three have to be there for me to turn on the spindle.
 
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