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Found this old 22L

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dfsmoto

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#1
Saved this old girl from scrap. Need to make a few parts for it. I'm close to having it setup and running. Going to have to make tooling for it. Thinking of making an adaptor to cat 40 as I plan on getting a vmc in the future. It has a b&s #13 taper spindle now. Unless someone has some tooling laying around to sell?
 

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dfsmoto

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#2
Got it in place and running off of the cheap Chinese vfd's off ebay I have grown to love! Picking up a seal for the spindle head tomorrow morning, then hopefully get time to get it all the way together.

The spindle bearings were getting warm as someone packed grease in there years ago to most likely keep oil from slinging out of the gearbox and into their face! The bearings were dated from 1941 and still look pretty good.

Very excited to have another mill that will take some of the heavier milling duties away from my PM835.

I have one taper adaptor for the B&S #13 spindle. I think for now it will get bored out and be my R8 adaptor so I can use some of my existing mill tooling. For my other adaptor to cat 40 I think I will make it out of 4140 and harden it.

It was missing the right hand bearing support on the x feed screw, so I will be making that also. Probably out of 1045 plated and a machined weldment to hold the bearing. Now back to what pays the bills for now...…….:frown:
 

Cal Haines

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#3
...
The spindle bearings were getting warm as someone packed grease in there years ago to most likely keep oil from slinging out of the gearbox and into their face! The bearings were dated from 1941 and still look pretty good.
...

I have one taper adaptor for the B&S #13 spindle. I think for now it will get bored out and be my R8 adaptor so I can use some of my existing mill tooling. ...
Van Normans have a reputation for the cutter-heads running hot. If it doesn't get too hot to be able to hold your hand on it, you're fine. I'm not terribly familiar with the No. 22, but the No. 12 went through a number of versions of the cutter-head, some of which used grease to lubricate the front bearing, some which lubricated it from the ring gear reservoir (which is always lubricated with oil). I have two No. 22L manuals: one shows a cutter-head with grease fittings (screw-down type) for both bearings; the other uses oil for the front bearing. You appear to have the type that used grease for both bearings, with a "grease ring" keep dirt out of the front bearing, but no front grease seal. (These had a reputation for spitting grease like an angry camel.) I can't really tell from your photos, but the original screw-down grease fittings may have been replaced with Alemite (aka Zerk) fittings. If you have grease in the ring-gear reservoir, you should clean it out and replace it with proper gear oil.

The manual that appears to best match your machine is the 22L/22P manual; e-mail me if you need a copy.

I would be a shame to destroy a rare piece of tooling to make an R8 adapter. If you can bore out a hardened adapter to make an R8 adapter, you shouldn't have a problem making one up from a chunk of 4140HT. Someone will pay you good money for your B&S 13 adapter. Several people have posted here over the last several years looking for B&S 13 adapters. BTW, what type of adapter do you have?

What's the serial number of your machine? You can find the serial number at the top of the vertical dovetail, on the right.
 

dfsmoto

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#4
Thanks for all your help! I appreciate knowledge on this machine. All I have is that one mt adaptor.

Not all that Keen to go to r8 anyway as I know this will be a much more capable machine.

It has oil cups on it so I was planning on just oiling the spindle bearings. It will mostly be ran vertically with a touch of horizontal milling after make an outboard over arm support. I got the inner one with the mill.

As far as the taper adaptor goes, I would sell it. Looks more like a drill press piece than for milling. Probably is a rare bird as my search of the interwebs has not returned anything much about the old brown and Sharpe taper.
 

dfsmoto

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I will post the serial number tomorrow. Thanks again!
 

Cal Haines

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Thanks for all your help! I appreciate knowledge on this machine. All I have is that one mt adaptor.

Not all that Keen to go to r8 anyway as I know this will be a much more capable machine.

It has oil cups on it so I was planning on just oiling the spindle bearings. ...

As far as the taper adaptor goes, I would sell it. Looks more like a drill press piece than for milling. Probably is a rare bird as my search of the interwebs has not returned anything much about the old brown and Sharpe taper.
If I were you, I would get an ER32 collet chuck and collets. CTC has an MT3 chuck for $20 (link) and an ER32 collet set for $46 (link), plus shipping. It's been several years since I bought anything from them, but I've been very pleased with the quality. I have 5 of their ER chucks and 6 collet sets (ER11 to ER32, inch and metric). The only problem with them is that they are based in Hong Kong, so standard shipping can take 6 weeks. Shars has and MT3 ER32 collet chuck set for $175.

If you want to machine an R8 adapter, the specs for B&S 13 taper are listed in Machinery's Handbook and on the web.

I'm quite sure that those aren't oil cups, but grease cups. You load them with grease, then every so often you give the cap a twist to push a little grease into the bearing. With modern, synthetic greases you don't need to constantly add grease and put up with it getting slung out of the spindle. I would take off the end caps, clean the old grease out of the bearings, load them with Mobilith SHC 100 and leave them alone until it's time to change the oil. If you have a grease fitting on the front bearing, you DO NOT want to try to lubricate it with oil, especially if you're planning to do a lot of vertical milling. With no front oil seal, that head is not intended for oil lubrication. None of the Van Norman "Duplex" milling machines used oil in the rear spindle bearings and those that use oil for the front bearing are lubricated from the ring-gear reservoir.
 

dfsmoto

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If I were you, I would get an ER32 collet chuck and collets. CTC has an MT3 chuck for $20 (link) and an ER32 collet set for $46 (link), plus shipping. It's been several years since I bought anything from them, but I've been very pleased with the quality. I have 5 of their ER chucks and 6 collet sets (ER11 to ER32, inch and metric). The only problem with them is that they are based in Hong Kong, so standard shipping can take 6 weeks. Shars has and MT3 ER32 collet chuck set for $175.

If you want to machine an R8 adapter, the specs for B&S 13 taper are listed in Machinery's Handbook and on the web.

I'm quite sure that those aren't oil cups, but grease cups. You load them with grease, then every so often you give the cap a twist to push a little grease into the bearing. With modern, synthetic greases you don't need to constantly add grease and put up with it getting slung out of the spindle. I would take off the end caps, clean the old grease out of the bearings, load them with Mobilith SHC 100 and leave them alone until it's time to change the oil. If you have a grease fitting on the front bearing, you DO NOT want to try to lubricate it with oil, especially if you're planning to do a lot of vertical milling. With no front oil seal, that head is not intended for oil lubrication. None of the Van Norman "Duplex" milling machines used oil in the rear spindle bearings and those that use oil for the front bearing are lubricated from the ring-gear reservoir.
Yeah I have some er40 collets so I was thinking about getting a collet chuck with a cat 40 taper. I already scored a 4" 45 degree facemill with a cat 40 shank so the conversion is on!

They are definitely oil cups on it now but I'm pretty sure you are right. They aren't original. I have a manual for it and it never shows those types of oil cups, just the grease fittings you mentioned.

Thank you for the input!
 

dfsmoto

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#8
Van Normans have a reputation for the cutter-heads running hot. If it doesn't get too hot to be able to hold your hand on it, you're fine. I'm not terribly familiar with the No. 22, but the No. 12 went through a number of versions of the cutter-head, some of which used grease to lubricate the front bearing, some which lubricated it from the ring gear reservoir (which is always lubricated with oil). I have two No. 22L manuals: one shows a cutter-head with grease fittings (screw-down type) for both bearings; the other uses oil for the front bearing. You appear to have the type that used grease for both bearings, with a "grease ring" keep dirt out of the front bearing, but no front grease seal. (These had a reputation for spitting grease like an angry camel.) I can't really tell from your photos, but the original screw-down grease fittings may have been replaced with Alemite (aka Zerk) fittings. If you have grease in the ring-gear reservoir, you should clean it out and replace it with proper gear oil.

The manual that appears to best match your machine is the 22L/22P manual; e-mail me if you need a copy.

I would be a shame to destroy a rare piece of tooling to make an R8 adapter. If you can bore out a hardened adapter to make an R8 adapter, you shouldn't have a problem making one up from a chunk of 4140HT. Someone will pay you good money for your B&S 13 adapter. Several people have posted here over the last several years looking for B&S 13 adapters. BTW, what type of adapter do you have?

What's the serial number of your machine? You can find the serial number at the top of the vertical dovetail, on the right.
I have found and studied the manual before I even lifted it off the trailer. Attached is the serial number.
 

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Silverbullet

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Now that's a nice mill. I love the van Norman mills. I've missed out on so many at fair to cheap prices. But yours beats that , congratulations .
 

Cal Haines

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Look like your machine was built in 1942.

Look on eBay. There are a couple of MT3 ER40 chucks for $25 and a bunch for around $50.
 

dfsmoto

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Look like your machine was built in 1942.

Look on eBay. There are a couple of MT3 ER40 chucks for $25 and a bunch for around $50.
I was worried about milling with a taper adaptor. I guess I would be able to use it some with that but a setup with a draw bar would be much more capable. I already have Bridgeport style mill so I'm not naked in the milling department!

I think you are right about this being a 1942 model as many features are shared with Van Norman's even older mills. The later ones had a split dovetail an the y axis way. Thanks again for your input on the subject! Now if I could get caught up in my shop enough to get back working on it!
 

dfsmoto

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There are lots of options for MT-shank ER collet chucks with drawbar threads.
Ok, just so we are on the same page. This is the only taper adaptor I have. Looks more like drill press style. I think it's like mt2 or mt1 also. Very small. If I make a taper adaptor it is going to be for something way more substantial for this beast! Thanks for the input though.

I think I will start another thread with my cat40 conversion.
 

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Cal Haines

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OK. That doesn't look like a Van Norman taper shank adapter (at least not like the ones shown in the Attachments, Arbors & Accessories catalog). The catalog doesn't show a B&S 13 taper adapter smaller that MT 3 or B&S #9. Have you checked it with a Morse taper tool? It could easily be an adapter to something like B&S #7 taper.

Does your spindle have a slot to engage the tang on the taper attachment?
 

dfsmoto

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#15
Yes it does have the slot. It's missing the nut though.

Wish I had that universal high speed attachment in that catalog!
 
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