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G4003g Going 3 Ph Vfd

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Dman1114

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#1
Hi everyone....

Well My warranty is up on my G4003G. These dam chinese motors are garbage. this is Number 3 and it has developed some noisey bearings.


So I've decided to go with a Leeson 192205.30 2HP 3ph motor. And i also purchased the Automation direct GS2 3 hp VFD

I ordered the motor and the VFD tonight. Hopefully ill be able to update this thread later in the week when they arrive.

Also if anyone has tackled this on there lathe and has some pointers .... ill be needing them....LOL
 

coolidge

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#2
Ahem the Leeson motors are now made in China.

That said I have a Leeson 3hp for my mill and the fit and finish on the motor is very nice, I don't use that word often. Its IP rated and sealed up pretty good. I'm going to do the same to my G4003G but I'm thinking about using a Leeson 3hp instead.
 

Doubleeboy

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#3
IMO Leeson was never top drawer even when they were made in USA. I would buy a used motor like a Lincoln or Baldor or Reliance long before I bought a Leeson. Leeson is on par with Emerson IMO, low grade consumer quality with long life not being a design feature. Hopefully your Leeson will serve you well and prove me wrong.

michael
 

mksj

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#4
The advantage of the Leeson (and Marathon) motors is that it comes in a many metric configurations, which is often a drop in replacement for the Asian machines. The metric motor lines are built to a price point, you can spend much more and get a better motor, but in this application the load/duty cycle is low, I do not feel it is necessary. You can get new surplus motors for not much more than used, so not sure I would want to inherent any potential problems with a used motor. Marathon also makes some decent 3 phase motors (Black Max, Blue Max and Blue Chip lines). If you can get one of these, or a Baldor, Reliance (or other high quality motor) at a decent price and it fits, then go for it.

I use the stock 2Hp 3 phase motor (non VFD rated) connected to a Hitachi WJ200 on my PM1340GT, and have no power issues. Also used 2Hp some other builds for similar size lathes, and you will probably break something before the motor gives out. I do like Automation Direct products, and use their switches/relays in many builds.
 
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Dman1114

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#5
Ok.... so I've been doing a lot of reading but I'm still kinda lost.....

the manual calls for this for the pot -

Potentiometer - 3-5 k, 0 to 10 VDC (input impedance 10 k)

can someone post a link where i can get the whole pot with the knob and the decal?.....

also i want to keep this basic and other than the addition of a pot. i want to keep everything else the way it is.

I've got the motor coming and the VFD, ill be pickng up some 12/3 shield wire .

what else will i need?


can anyone sorta dummy it down for me please....


i appreciate any and all the help. thank you
 

tmarks11

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#6
Just a note: don't wire any of the existing contractors or switches between the VFD and the motor. You should have an unbroken run of the 3 phases from the VFD to the motors.
 

mksj

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#7
I would keep the power transformer and the 2A breaker for the light, remove the 5A breaker, Relay FR1 and Contactor KM1, KM2 and KAO. You will need to wire the power neutral "0" 30 on the transformer to terminal "0" to power the work light. You should use a single 4 pole low voltage power relay that can be mounted to the DIN rail, that would require a reset if the power fails or the E-Stop is pressed.

It is not clear where you want to mount your VFD, I would include a power line disconnect followed by two cartridge fuses 30-40A or a dual breaker going to the VFD. The motor is directly connected to the VFD terminals.
You will need to have some form of power latching relay. I would revise the control panel switches/power to low voltage. You would have a 22mm E-Stop switch (like the GCX1135), lighted LED power start switch (like the GCX1204-XX), jog switch (like the GCX1102), and replace the power lamp with a speed pot. A 5K spot should work well, something like the Automation Direct ECX2300-5K and ECX2640 legend plate.
Control buttons:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...al/Illuminated_Pushbuttons_Flush_-a-_Extended
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...on-Illuminated_Pushbuttons_Flush_-a-_Extended

The issue will be to determine if you need a separate 12 or 24VDC power supply for the relay and switch power indicator LED, so it is not as straight forward as one would assume. The VFD may not be able to supply enough power from the 12V DCM terminal to power the relay and LED power button. I would call Automation Direct to discuss this and what they recommend, and if a separate 12 or 24V power supply is needed (these are inexpensive and can mount to the DIN rail). The direction controls would be run through the power relay and then connect direct to the VFD input terminals. When the low voltage power relay is interrupted, it disconnects the direction signals. The relay latch should be wired, so it can only be powered up with the direction lever in the stop position, otherwise the lathe could run when the power reset button is pressed. There are various ways/schematics which address this, I would sketch out what you plan to do first.
 

Dman1114

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#8
Ok so that helps a bunch.... change out the E stop, go with a lighted start switch, a new jog button and the POT....... I Like that. Guess ill call tomorrow and C what they say. and if i need something else ill order it all at once.

I was thinking of mounting the VFD in the left side factory grizzly cabinet. They are really useless to me anyhow.. I was gonna keep the factory light also so i would need to keep the transformer for that.

well i got some stuff to get me started.


Thank You
 

coolidge

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#9
The Danfoss VFD's do not, the 2.2kw supplies a pitiful 50ma of 24vdc power I just had to order a 24vdc supply. Like mksj said they are cheap. Also recommend you get everything organized on paper before you start ordering. I started off going with 24vdc for my controls, changed my mind switched to 120vac, then changed back to 24vdc and now I have spare components I don't need. I also can't believe how much single phase amps you have to feed these VFD's, I'm on the edge with a 220 vac 30 amp breaker for a 3hp motor. It should really be a 40 amp circuit but I don't want to redo everything in 8 awg wire, it ran fine on a 30 amp circuit so I'm going to try that for a while.
 

Dman1114

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#10
Looks like it won't be till next week to get the vfd installed...

That's ok. I've got extra time to make sure everything will be right.

The motor showed up last night. ... I think ups has gorillas handling packages. The feet on the motor were snapped off. I called the merchant and they have a new motor in route.

I'm gonna be keeping my light and the factory transformer.

I've got a new 24v power supply to control the relays and lights.

MKSJ... made me up a nice wiring schematic .... he really came through and took care of me THANK YOU!!!

This is a great learning experience, and I will share it with everyone as I go.

I'll post photos and update my progress .... I've got one part I gotta finish. Then I gotta move it away from the wall. And I'm gonna get started prepping.


Well hopefully everything goes well and my machine will be up and going sometime next week.

Thank you to all .

20150416_183402.jpg
 

mksj

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#13
Final revised schematic V4, simplified further. Additional safety feature which disconnects the DCM line (VFD internal power 12 or 24V that is required to activate the input terminals) when the power relay disengages. I still recommend using 3 pole relays, the unused set of relay contacts can be used to activate coolant or other devices, if not 2 pole would work. You need to verify the connections of the spindle switch using either a voltmeter or ohm meter if the wires are disconnected. Edit the schematic to fit your needs and particular application. Look forward to your final build and narrative.
 

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Dman1114

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#14
And so it has begun.....

I got a box in today from Automation direct....

My dash buttons (minus the Estop) the pot, relays and there blocks... The estop and the DC power supply were sourced else where.. should see those by friday.

Ive decided that I can live with out my lathe for a little while.

I pulled the Lathe from the wall and did some spring cleaning.

Wont be needing any of this stuff anymore.

20150421_181400_zpsaimcx65i.jpg

The electrical box is empty now.
20150421_180015_zpsaqvyk4pz.jpg

I fit the new buttons/pot that i have now in the panel.. had to see how the pot would look LOL.
gonna try and find some matching paint and sand the old power letters off behind the pot Placard and touch it up. Now that i look at it in this pic i may just tape off a nice square, a little bigger than the placard and paint it black.

I want to keep this close to the way the lathe came from grizzly with the addition of the POT.

So the Lighted E-Stop Will stay lit when the master power is on. Then i hit the power start and it lights up letting me know the lathe is ready for action!




20150421_194056_zpsyqr7fmjn.jpg



since i will be using the factory wiring with the Apron Fwd Rev stop switch i decided it would be a good time to read out the wires...
20150421_175937_zpsbwpqhkta.jpg

Blue = Power in.....
Red = Reverse
Brown = Forward
Black = Stop
Yel/Grn = Grnd

Looks like the new motor will be here tomarrow.

I will be mounting the VFD in cabinet below the headstock. I will be chipping away at that while i wait for the rest of the parts...

I need to run to the electrical supply shop and get me a box of 22 awg fork connectors....


Guess theres no turning back now. i have absolutely no clue how to wire this up for single phase motor LOL.

There was a ton of wires in the electrical cabinet.
 

Dman1114

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#15
Well after 2 long nights.... i got it up and going today. I temp mounted the VFD on the wall and left all my wiring long, that way i could get a feel for the programing and play with it. without having to be down on my knees with my head in the lower cabinet.

Im actually thinking about getting a enclosure to put the VFD in and mount it on the wall.

I am blown away by how quiet and smooth this grizzly G4003G is. Its almost unbelievable. Its like getting a new lathe. Now i have to adjust the backlash in my change gears. I couldn't hear them before

I don't know why i didn't do this when the first motor went out. 2 replacements later and they were still noisy junk.

I owe Mksj a huge thanks... He pretty much stream lined this for me. Mksj Thank YOU... Your an asset to this forum!!!! with his help this job probably would took me a lot longer.
 

Dman1114

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#17
i forgot to take a finished photo of the cabinet. I took the picture right before i gave all the controls/relays and lights a powered dry run to verify everything was working pro to hooking anything to the VFD

There are for 4 more wires for that go to the VFD that are in that unstripped cable. They would be the DCM power FWD, REV, and Jog.

and then the light wasn't hooked up yet either.

I had to move all the incoming and outgoing wires to the front of the box cause of clearance issues with the motor. and i ran the Incoming power off the side of the box.

Ill get another finished pic. I cleaned it up some and secured the wires.

From left to right ... 100w dc 24 volt power supply. Power latching relay, fwd relay, Reverse relay

i cut a master on off switch into the side of the box. thats what you see on the right
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Woodstock-D...959?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c4c963237


20150425_122302_zps9h9o5usm.jpg
 
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mksj

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#18
Jaime,

Looking very nice. World of difference going to 3 phase, and I am sure the new motor is very smooth (especially compared to the stock motor). Glad it came together, your next install will be much quicker. Like that you added a main power switch at the machine.

Some additional information for others who may be doing this conversion. The nice thing on the DIN rails in the box, is it is easy to snap in/out components as needed. I use Automation Direct for a lot of the components, reasonably priced and very decent quality parts (for the most part). You can get DIN rail power supplies in different configurations (sizes), just need to make sure they will fit in your machine cabinet with the door closed, but you can go with a narrow/tall model to give more space in the cabinet. If you need a local breaker for the machine, the supplemental breakers below snap into the DIN rail, and cost less than a cartridge fuse set-up. The 30 or 32A (wire in before the VFD power in, not to the motor) should be fine for a 2Hp single phase set-up, the C or D rating is the trip (surge amp curve) usually used for motors or high start-up current (less of an issue with a VFD). Use some form of terminal system to connect the wires coming into the box. Terminate wires with crimp spades or rings for high power, I like to solder the wire after it is crimped (fills the void space and prevents future corrosion).

DIN Rail Power Supplies, if you use the stock work light (Incandescent Bulb is 50W 24V AC or DC), you will need at least a 100W power supply and wire it directly to the 24VDC power supply
RHINO POWER SUPPLY 24VDC 5A (120W) DIN RAIL ALUM CASE PSB24-120 (CASE IS 1.25" WIDE, 4.76" TALL, DEPTH 4.72")
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ower_Supplies/24VDC,_DIN_Rail_Mount/PSB24-120
or REIGNPOWER supplies on eBay
REIGNPOWER 100W Power Supply NL1100D-24 24VDC 4.2A Din Rail Power Supply Dimensions : (H) 102 x (D) 76x (W) 45mm

DIN Rail Supplemental fuse (if no dedicated breaker at the electrical panel)
EATON SUPPLEMENTARY PROTECTOR 2 POLE 30A OR 32A, C OR D CURVE WMZS2D30, WMZS2D30
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...Series)/D_Curve_(0.5A-40A,_WMZS2Dxx)/WMZS2D30
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...Series)/D_Curve_(0.5A-40A,_WMZS2Dxx)/WMZS2D32

Mark
 

coolidge

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#19
Dman WOW that cabinet looks simple I am so converting my G4003G if I decide to keep it.

mksj - What are we talking here for the single phase supply? With that DC power supply sucking what 6 amps and the amp sucking VFD how many amps are you drawing at peak load?
 

mksj

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A 2 Hp motor at full load is around 14-18A at 230V single phase (~6A per leg 3 phase), the VFD is usually set to provide up to 150% rated current for short periods. The 24V supply when fully loaded is maybe 1/2A at 230V. So total system load at full rated output (continuous full load) is under 20A, and the rated breaker is 30A continuous, D rated breakers can provide a minimum of 10x rated current for 100ms before tripping. The VFD also stores quite a bit of energy in the capacitors. Mine runs for around 30 seconds after I shut the power off. I have used 30A dual breakers on a number of 2Hp builds, have not had any issues, and the breaker current is appropriate for 12G wiring for power to the VFD. The VFD KW rating does not dictate the fusing for the most part, it is the output current set based on the motor parameters. Since VFD has soft start and overload protection, it mitigates some of the high motor start current/locked rotor current.

Circuit breaker short term trip ratings
Type B - trips between 3 and 5 time full load current
Type C - trips between 5 and 10 times full load current
Type D - trips between 10 and 20 times full load current
 

Dman1114

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Ok so I'm about done. I ordered a brake resister and that should be here this week. other than that. i just need to fig out how to set my Pot so at 75 % I'm at 60 HZ that way it gives me a little room to increase the RPMs

I made a few chips with it tonight. It doesn't even feel like the same machine. Very smooth. Im very happy with this.

There is one other thing i would like to address.... and i should of done it before putting the motor on but i forgot about it . the motor needs to be moved over about 1/2" cause the pulley is hanging out farther than i like. It was like that with the factory motor too.

so Maybe if i get ambitious i will pull the motor, drill and tap a tap some new holes. in the plate.

so here is the finished product.

20150426_155328_zpsxzcs4idh.jpg

20150426_155843_zpsgkrnqzj3.jpg

20150426_202347_zpscz7ywpjr.jpg

20150426_202402_zps2tjetibb.jpg

20150426_202411_zpsizkrugwp.jpg

20150426_202313_zpsirfyckkt.jpg
 

tmarks11

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#22
Do you get a better finish now?

Now you need to add a photo tach on the spindle to finish the job right....
 

coolidge

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There is one other thing i would like to address.... and i should of done it before putting the motor on but i forgot about it . the motor needs to be moved over about 1/2" cause the pulley is hanging out farther than i like. It was like that with the factory motor too.
Ditto, mine arrived from the factory with the pulley hanging off like yours, the pulley also was machined so poorly it wobbled like a cartoon. I re-drilled and tapped the bracket properly which moved the motor over and the replacement pulley Grizzly sent me ran spot on true like a pulley should.
 

tmarks11

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#24
I re-drilled and tapped the bracket properly which moved the motor over and the replacement pulley Grizzly sent me ran spot on true like a pulley should.
Those brackets look like some 4 yo "crafted" the original mold out of play-do. I intend to replace mine with some solid plate with vibration mounts. On my list... not because it isn't functional, but because using plates I can fit in some industrial vibration isolators.
 

coolidge

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#25
Those brackets look like some 4 yo "crafted" the original mold out of play-do. I intend to replace mine with some solid plate with vibration mounts. On my list... not because it isn't functional, but because using plates I can fit in some industrial vibration isolators.
Recommend you remove your belts and measure the vibration at the chuck with just the motor running first. I used some simple .100 thick rubber washers and measured like 1 tenth vibration, that's with the stock China motor. Is it worth a lot of engineering trying to eliminate that? With the belts vibration varied between 1 and 2 tenths. A single belt would probably bring it down further I think some of that vibration was the two belts doing a dance. A serpentine or splined belt drive like I see on some high end cnc lathes and mills might be interesting.
 

Dean

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#26
Well Dman it has been almost a year since the 3 phase conversion. I was wondering how you like it so far? Would you do anything different?
Would you do it again? Since my G4003G is finally broken in, I am contemplating the 3 phase conversion. I really really dislike the available speeds on the lathe.
The jump from B2 to C3 (360 - 600) is a biggie. So if you would a couple words of wisdom would be appreciated.
Dean
 

Dman1114

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#27
Dean...

I Use my lathe Daily... In my home garage .. I mostly work aluminum but the Machine has treated me very well

I can tell you this, i don't think i will ever buy another single phase machine. LOL The VFD gives you so many options...

I have the JOG set up so that when i do my threading i stop short and JOG it in.

I Pretty much Use 2 speeds on my Lathe now. I keep it at 1000 for most general work and threading i put it at 70. for anything faster or slower i just tune it in with the POT.


The Braking is SOO nice. ..... I can't say enough good things about it. Im totally happy with it.

I couldn't get a finish like this before...

20160130_120919_zpscjebqfvk.jpg
 

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tmarks11

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The Braking is SOO nice. ..... I can't say enough good things about it. Im totally happy with it.
This is with your external braking resistor? Where did you order it from?

Did you set it up to actively brake whenever you turn off the spindle? I was curious how well that would work with the momentum of all the gearing working to keep things going, although I guess the natural mechanical advantage (1800 rpm motor stepped down to 1000 rpm spindle) would help when you were in lower spindle speed settings.

Mounting it on the base door is a nice touch. No need for another electrical cabinet, plus it is probably roomy enough in there that you don't have to worry about it overheating without adding an external ventilation fan.
 

Dean

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Dman thanks so much for the reply. Ok now your gonna make me spend some more money Flustered.
Next question if you don't mind. Did you stick with the wiring diagram that MKSJ did for you?
Any modifications or last minute upgrades?

I just finished building the machine tachometer from http://machtach.com/
Very nice compact unit. Worked right off the bat. Another reason to go 3 phase all of the posted rpms are way off.

Anyway thanks for the help, anymore tips or tricks are greatly appreciated.
By the way very nice finish on those parts.

Dean
 

wrmiller

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#30
Dean,

I have a similar yet different make/model lathe, and I went with the VFD/braking resistor combo as well as the Machtach. Couldn't ask for a better setup IMO, and like Dman I seldom use more than two speed ranges on the head and just use the VFD for speed control. Love the braking! I don't miss having a mechanical foot brake at all.

MKSJ was a huge help with the VFD as I was completely new to this sort of thing. After it was all done, I'm very glad I did. I even opted to do the same thing to my mill. :D
 
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