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Gear between carriage and rack on Hardinge TL

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W6PUG

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#1
Hi Guys. Have gotten some good posts back - great info - during the restoration of the Hardinge TL (thanks Jim!), and it is going together very well ... hope to have first chips within next week, however one thing that is being hard to over come is the gear that runs between the carriage and the rack .... it has broken somewhere along the line and the previous owner put a 12 tooth little gear where the original 11 was. It works - turns things great ... a little bit of backlash but livable, but I think when I start threading, that extra tooth is going to throw off my feed rate, so I still need to figure out how to get that gear replaced, either from a salvage or from someone who can cut one. I did find out that there are a couple of other guys who are also facing this, so if anyone has any sources or thoughts I am sure we would all appreciate it who have the same problem. I will get some new pictures of it within next few days. the machine is 1944 and the experts I have been in contact with thus far are skeptical if we can find this out on a net anyplace (and I am sure we are all scouring every resource we can find!) This is not something that I have to do right now, but it is going to be there until I get it fixed, and as I said, I think it will cause me problems in threading (??) ....thanks in advance for any/all help/thoughts.
Doug W6PUG (I am also a ham radio operator and we have a houseful of pugs, so that is where that came from).
 

Weldingrod1

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#2
Doug,
It looks like Hardinge likes 20 degree pressure angle gears and 22 diametral pitch.
This will sound crazy, but you could have this gear 3d printed in metal. I am currently printing a special pair of gears to let me cut an 8 TPI thread on my TL-10. I'll let you know how that comes out. If you are interested in trying this route, I can generate the STL file you will need. In order to make the file I will need to know the shaft diameter, keyway dimensions, and confirm the number of teeth and diametral pitch.
Of course I don't have the change gear quadrant OR the change gears... Argh! If you happen to have the standard quadrant or metric quadrant, I would love to get a scan/copy of both sides of them with a precision ruler in the picture!
Regards,
Rod
 

Weldingrod1

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Doug,
Hardinge change gears are Fellows 22/29 stub pitch, 20 degree pressure angle.
Both of the sketchup involute plugins make standard teeth. I might be able to build a single tooth in Autocad and copy it...
I don't know if they use stub teeth on the carriage; probably not, but it needs checking.
Does this gear mesh with the rack, or some other gear I can get at to measure? I have gear tooth calipers and a Hardinge TL-10.
FYI, the 3d printed plastic change gears worked!
Regards,
Rod
 

W6PUG

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Sorry to be so slow to respond - things are weird at work right now and time is nonexistent, so I did not see this ....
This is the gear that actually meshes with the track ... the guy who had it before me put a 12-tooth in its place and it sorta works but I cannot help but think it will not track speed right, which in most cases probably would not make a lot of difference - until you try to cut threads or something! Then I think your spin versus your linear speed will be off, and your thread will be off by the extra tooth angle .... I am obviously not a machinist at your level but the logic seems to fit here ....

I will need to get some help to take the compound off if you need to see it, but I am going to dig through some of the old pix I had when I got it and send you what I have / if I can find the broken gear, I might even be able to send it, but that has been a year ago and I am not sure where I might have put it.

You have a 3D printer!! Wow! That is so over the top to me that I can't even comprehend it. Let me see what I can dig up in photos and hopefully find the broken gear ... God help me on this one!

Thank you for the followup .... and again I apologize for being so slow to respond.
Happy Holidays and thank you again! doug
 

Weldingrod1

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Doug,

Having the wrong number of teeth meshing with the rack gear won't have any effect on threading; that's controlled by the lead screw.

I can measure the rack pitch on my lathe, and make sure it isn't stub tooth like the change gears. I will see if I can see in and count teeth on the drive gear.

Regards,
Rod
 

Weldingrod1

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Doug,

At the bottom of this page is a photo of the pinion gear that drives the carriage. It is integral with the shaft, and it looks like the large gear is too.
http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/lathe-build-logs/566-renovating-hardinge-hlv-h-3.html
Its not obvious to me that you could even put in an incorrect gear at all!
Halfway down this page is a picture of the insides of an HLV carriage; our should be pretty similar to this.
How did you decide you had the wrong gear in there? How much backlash do you have? 0.01" is a good measurement.
Rod
 

W6PUG

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#7
Hi! I really appreciate you digging into this ... I have looked for a replacement gear for months.
The original gear is 11 tooth; it was broken and was a replaced with a piece of 12-tooth commercial gearstock that was cut - I still have the remnant ... Obviously parts for this lathe are not available now ... I even contacted Hardinge and they said there was not even any manual or reference available in their arachives wo I am SOL.
It runs ok ... but that is part of the tracking across the whole bed way, so I was trying to find a replacement. The guy I got it from knew the story behind it and showed me as we were putting it together ....
Cannot answer about the backlash ... you are right .... I need to measure it ....
I also have been told that this TL is same gearing config as T-10 ... but I could not verify that if my life depended on it. I am newly getting back into hobby machining after 30 year absence, so I have discovered what I don't remember is huge ....
Afraid I do not have any more info that I know of (doesn't mean I don't have it - I just don't KNOW if I or Billy has it!
Thanks again! OBTW - Merry Christmas! Hope the Spirit of the Holiday is in your house!
doug
 

W6PUG

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I JUST realized something ... I should have started this thread in the Other Lathes section instead of the milling section - I was so excited to see someone with a Hardinge label that I totally missed that ... please forgive.
I have not had much time on the machine lately - working to upgrade some of my welding resources the job had me overseas for a couple of weeks - I will get back to this and see where I am in it all.
Should I stay here or reopen the thread in the Other Lathes section?
Thanks Guys!
 
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#9
Would you like it moved or left here, your call.

"Billy G"
 

W6PUG

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Would you like it moved or left here, your call.

"Billy G"
Bill - I am ok with it as long as someone else does not get bent out of shape .... but I should have paid a little more attention ... will be more careful next time ....but I also want to thank everyone who has been HUGE help with me using this lathe - Jim S and Rod and others have been very encouraging and very very helpful. This is a great forum and I am privileged to be a part of it. Thank you. Doug
 

W6PUG

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Hi Guys. Have gotten some good posts back - great info - during the restoration of the Hardinge TL (thanks Jim!), and it is going together very well ... hope to have first chips within next week, however one thing that is being hard to over come is the gear that runs between the carriage and the rack .... it has broken somewhere along the line and the previous owner put a 12 tooth little gear where the original 11 was. It works - turns things great ... a little bit of backlash but livable, but I think when I start threading, that extra tooth is going to throw off my feed rate, so I still need to figure out how to get that gear replaced, either from a salvage or from someone who can cut one. I did find out that there are a couple of other guys who are also facing this, so if anyone has any sources or thoughts I am sure we would all appreciate it who have the same problem. I will get some new pictures of it within next few days. the machine is 1944 and the experts I have been in contact with thus far are skeptical if we can find this out on a net anyplace (and I am sure we are all scouring every resource we can find!) This is not something that I have to do right now, but it is going to be there until I get it fixed, and as I said, I think it will cause me problems in threading (??) ....thanks in advance for any/all help/thoughts.
Doug W6PUG (I am also a ham radio operator and we have a houseful of pugs, so that is where that came from).
Guys, I have another issue that came up. When I transported it up here on a trailer, the potholes connected to potholes on I-5 did something that is kicking my butt.... all of the sudden, something is going on in the headstock and the autofeed shaft will not engage/turn. It was well strapped down on the trailer - did not budge ... autofeed was working fine before I left; got it up here and nada. It is almost like a pin vibrated out during the trip or something, but I am afraid to tear into headstock because I do not know if it has preload on it or anything - there is no manual or drawings or anything available on it that I have ever found .... I did check the half-nut on the crossfeed just to see if it was engaging and it is, but of course makes no difference if feed shaft isn't turning ... so does anyone know how the guts in the headstock work? I did go down today and picked up a flexible borescope so I can look up inside the headstock from the bottom - If I knew what to look for. Lathe is still usable by manual feed but I sure don't have a steady enough hand to get the finish I like ... could sure use some advice!
Thanks in advance - I appreciate any insight any of you have. I was going to contact Jim Swaggert but I bombed my other computer and lost email addresses >:eek:(
Thanks again - doug
 

co1859

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#12
Wish I could help, But not familiar with the TC lathe. Do you have any pictures?
 
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#13
A 3d printed plastic changegear will probably work fine, but a carriage feed gear would snap pretty quickly. Even if printed in the more solid ABS plastic which is harder to print on most hobby 3d printers.

I would buy and modify a gear and just be done with it. This gear determines accuracy (if you have a longitudinal feed dial) of your lathe, make sure it's made with accuracy. The wrong gear would also probably cause a lumpy Z axis feed.

It won't hurt threading, you use the leadscrew and halfnuts to thread.
 

W6PUG

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Wish I could help, But not familiar with the TC lathe. Do you have any pictures?
I do not have any recent ones but I can sure take some this weekend and post. It is a Hardinge TL lathe made at end of WW!! / problem is that at that time, Hardinge was pushing them out the door (something like 2-3 different models) to the point that they were being serial numbered by going out the door, not by model. To best of my knowledge there was no manual and no schematic drawing. There was a 10 page brochure that someone found and posted which identified the knobs and levers but that was about it. One thing I learned from this forum was that it was very similar to a "T-10", but frankly, the only Hardinge I have ever seen that was well documented is the various generations of the HLV .... so I am kind of at a loss ... my best hope is that someone else has one, or is a machinist who learned from a machine of that era, or something like that .... so I would be very grateful for any info I can get. I can take photos ... would it help for me to take a short video of operating the levers and such and show what is 'not' happening?
Thanks for inquiring and I will get pix posted ... if any of you have any ideas, I would really appreciate it to bring this thing back to proper life .... it is my favorite tool, and this is really bugging me. Thanks again - doug
 

co1859

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#15
Anything would be helpful. Since it was working prior to transporting.
 

W6PUG

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I actually already have this one - this is the one I mentioned that had all of the knobs and levers identified - in fact, I think someone on this forum emailed it to me some time ago, and another one about threading with the TL - but thank you for looking too ... this weekend was first 'normal' weekend wife and I have had at home - she has been commuting weekends for past 10 months and finally got situated up here so we did house stuff and I need to get those pix taken ...
But thank you again for looking!!! I am hoping that a pin fell out or something during the transit and I just need to find and replace it, but it is definitely a puzzle for me ... Take care and hope your Halloween is a celebration and not too nuts! Cheers! doug
 

W6PUG

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Hi guys ... work has been nuts and believe it or not even after a year I am still opening boxes and putting stuff away. I will certainly keep the 3D printer idea in mind ... I found all of the docs you guys suggested so far but of course none of them are exploded drawings or maintenance manual or anything. For some reason I thought that since the HLV came out in about the same time that my TL was turning into a dinosaur, they might have carried that part (what goes on behind the curtain - uh, I mean under the apron) design forward but so far no joy. I have kinda gotten it down to the auto feed engage lever problem and I think there is a l ittle clutch under that, but it is brutal to get that off because the manual feel handwheel is in the way, so Doug thinks to himself, "Meself, remove the handwheel .... " easier said than done. DSC_0350.JPG DSC_0351.JPG
So, thanks to the patience of you guys, I have not pushed it into the back corner of the shop in abandonment. I know there is an answer ... I am just not smart enough to make it work (yet) but one of you guys will have seen it and make it make sense to me eventually ... I just appreciate everybody's ideas and patience. I think this is the last issue with the thing. It was somewhat abused before I got it - see the scratch marks in the bed way? Some genius thought that was going to improve oil under the crossfeed movement .... so it has a better home, but still needs help :eek:) Thanks Guys! I truly am grateful for your input. ddj at PugWerks
 

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W6PUG

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#19
OBTW - do you guys use syringes to lubricate those ball spring gizmos you see in the picture? Was there some tool that was better for that?
 

W6PUG

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please see attached - is this what you used to use to lubricate the crossfeed and way on the lathe? Mine has these little ball and spring things and I am using a syringe to supply oil .... kind of a pain ... and I wondered what was really used "back in the day" ....
 

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