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Gingery-style Shaper, improving function

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Wolfram Malukker

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So, about fifteen years ago I built the Gingery Lathe and Shaper. I gave the lathe away, but I kept the shaper as I never got it working quite right. I substituted a few things, changed a few of the castings, mostly to make them thicker, taller, and heavier.

I never finished with the modifications, but I did attempt to get the machine to cut it's own table. I was never able to get the thing to cut without chatter-and I mean a LOT of chatter. I had it driven by a treadmill motor, and eventually needed the belt to drive a different machine, so it's been in the back corner of the shop gathering dust.

I'll get some photos of it when I get a chance to pull it out, but it may be until after I finish with the Logan Lathe.

I suspect, however, that the chatter issue is caused by the front of the ram not being perfectly square and flat to the back of the toolhead, so the whole cutting load would appear on the 3/4" diameter cold-rolled pin that locates the toolhead.

Would this sound like a good place to start? I just noticed the gap (about 0.008") the other day when I was moving it.
 

vtcnc

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Interested to see where this project goes. I have lots of questions. Going to be hard to comment on this without some photos and maybe a better description of the .008" gap. E.g., where is the gap exactly? Around the pin, or in the ram ways? There are a fair number of shaper users on the H-M forum, not all Gingery style, but shapers nonetheless. Sit tight while people tune in. Photos will help with your request.
 

C-Bag

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like vtcnc said, there is so many places the chatter problem can be. Was the table tight? How much play/clearance in the ram? How was the cutter sharpened? etc, etc. Pic's would be good too.
 

Metalmill

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So, about fifteen years ago I built the Gingery Lathe and Shaper. I gave the lathe away, but I kept the shaper as I never got it working quite right. I substituted a few things, changed a few of the castings, mostly to make them thicker, taller, and heavier.

I never finished with the modifications, but I did attempt to get the machine to cut it's own table. I was never able to get the thing to cut without chatter-and I mean a LOT of chatter. I had it driven by a treadmill motor, and eventually needed the belt to drive a different machine, so it's been in the back corner of the shop gathering dust.

I'll get some photos of it when I get a chance to pull it out, but it may be until after I finish with the Logan Lathe.

I suspect, however, that the chatter issue is caused by the front of the ram not being perfectly square and flat to the back of the toolhead, so the whole cutting load would appear on the 3/4" diameter cold-rolled pin that locates the toolhead.

Would this sound like a good place to start? I just noticed the gap (about 0.008") the other day when I was moving it.
Hi Wolfram,

I would also be interested in hearing more and seeing photos of the Gingery Shaper. I owned a Southbend 7” shaper years ago and marveled at the precise fit of the clapper box parts. I would suggest starting there and also trying different tool grinds with the least amount of “overhang” or “stick—out.” In other words the cutter is retracted as close to the tool holder as possible.

There is a young fellow on YouTube now (Makercise) who just made a Gingery shaper and he had some cutting issues as well. He solved his by hanging a big Vise-Grip pliers on the tool post nut and by running the machine ultra-slow.

Good luck with it and please keep us posted.

Thanks!

Bill
 

C-Bag

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Hi Wolfram,

I would also be interested in hearing more and seeing photos of the Gingery Shaper. I owned a Southbend 7” shaper years ago and marveled at the precise fit of the clapper box parts. I would suggest starting there and also trying different tool grinds with the least amount of “overhang” or “stick—out.” In other words the cutter is retracted as close to the tool holder as possible.

There is a young fellow on YouTube now (Makercise) who just made a Gingery shaper and he had some cutting issues as well. He solved his by hanging a big Vise-Grip pliers on the tool post nut and by running the machine ultra-slow.

Good luck with it and please keep us posted.

Thanks!

Bill
Thanks for the link to the Makercise YouTube vid. I watched the one on making the down feed head and I like the guys style and subscribed. There are so many design differences in shapers and each design has its strength and weakness. And not being familiar with the particular design makes for total shots in the dark. There is so many places chatter can occur. All my experience comes from dealing with my old used and abused Atlas 7b and I went through several hunts and cures for chatter in mine. But I have no idea if they are applicable to a Gingery.
I've always loved the idea of the Gingery from nothing to a full machine shop. So I'm looking fwd to watching the series of YouTube vids on this.
 

Metalmill

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Thanks for the link to the Makercise YouTube vid. I watched the one on making the down feed head and I like the guys style and subscribed. There are so many design differences in shapers and each design has its strength and weakness. And not being familiar with the particular design makes for total shots in the dark. There is so many places chatter can occur. All my experience comes from dealing with my old used and abused Atlas 7b and I went through several hunts and cures for chatter in mine. But I have no idea if they are applicable to a Gingery.
I've always loved the idea of the Gingery from nothing to a full machine shop. So I'm looking fwd to watching the series of YouTube vids on this.
Yes, I think you will enjoy the Makercise series. The his , Cressel Anderson does a great job. Very talented young man. I remember it took me a while to get the hang of setting up my old South Bend shaper. Wish I hadn’t sold it! Hope Wolfram posts more about his Gingery shaper!

Bill
 

C-Bag

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Well one thing I don't like and this goes for several channels is there is no organized progression of the specific project vids. You have to hunt up each one and they aren't even numbered. I have to guess at what is the next step. That said I get he seems to be a homesteader or something and has projects all the time and is covering everything as it comes. I know how that goes

But in looking at stuff briefly I see stuff that I think are shortcomings of the design. I think a chain drive bullgear is a shortcoming. One of the things I had early on with the 7b was this "pattern" that was like a wavy cut that you could only mostly see when reflected light off the finished part. And it was consistent. One thing that helped was sharpening the bit. And that was no mean feat. The one that came on it was rounded and kinda hooked. When I sharpened it a major part of the mild chatter went away but not completely. I was looking through the manual and it mentioned tacky grease. I'd never heard of that before and googled it and this grease Red 'n Tacky came up. Bought a tube and put that on the bull gear and as long as I make sure it's on there good everytime I use it like oiling everything, its' good to go. My point being chain while being positive might not be as smooth as gear and that kind of vibration would transmit right into the ram and into the cutter.

I tried making a standard grind like I would do on a lathe and it was a mess compared to the original rounded hooked grind that came on it. I've since made a jig to accurately and consistently do the kind of grind. I just now have to make something that can grind that hook. It's fairly easy on a straight hook, but very tricky on a curved hook.

I also wonder about aluminum vs steel or cast iron for it's ability to ring and oscillate. This would directly correlate to chatter. It might be worth adding some weight to the ram and see what happens. The increased weight might act like a flywheel and smooth the cut.
 

horty

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As far as the gingery shaper.

1. The clearance between the clapper and clapper box needs to be a slip fit, when put together the clapper just needs to touch the sides of the box.
And needs to fit perfectly square in the box. With no perceivable play.

2. The ram ways need to be Perfectly Scraped, from front to back, at least 80-90%. If it takes 2 hours or 2 days, 2 days which it took me, you need to spend the time to do it correctly.

3. When I cast the ram, I cast a piece of thick wall tubing that I bored out to .748 right into the end of the ram, I made sure it was a perfect parallel to the ram as I could get it before pouring. I double triple checked over and over. I then reamed out to .750 when done

4. All the parts and mating surfaces as far as the swivels and slides that are on the end of the ram need to be scraped, you cannot have any perceivable slop or play on any of these parts.

I know its easy to get in a hurry and call it Good Enough, when it could be better, but just good enough will cause chatter.
I have this problem of being a perfectionist, some times its good sometimes its bad, but as far as this shaper goes, be a perfectionist, just take your time, and you will then have a solid running shaper.
 
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vtcnc

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Well one thing I don't like and this goes for several channels is there is no organized progression of the specific project vids. You have to hunt up each one and they aren't even numbered. I have to guess at what is the next step.
He could use a numbering system in his videos, however, if you go to your subscribed page on YT, and then go to his channel, you will then see a tab for "playlists". It is here that you can find organized videos by topic.
 

horty

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Just thought I would post some pics of what I have done on the Gingery Shaper, This is the second one I have built, It is for my friend that was in that car accident..

Ive made a few changes like the the tool head pin is not captured in a cap, lots of stress there so eliminated any shims and adjusting.

Made the shaper sides and side plate thicker for no particular reason.

The first one I made worked well, no problems except there was a really high frequency vibration, could barely hear it, lots of dogs hanging around the shop though, and if looked at the cut with a magnifier, you could see really small chatter,like .00025 apart, hard to see but in my mind it equaled the high frequency sound, I removed the shims from the cap and really tightened it down and that took care of the problem, that's why I eliminated the cap.

The patterns in 2 pics is what I have left to cast, some time in the future...

Tim



2.jpg


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