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talvare

Ted A
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@Ted I think the pictures may be getting blurry after uploading is there a way to directly send them to you?
As for the motor wiring, there where only 3 wires coming out of the motor are the other 6 inside? I'm gonna take some of the covers off this weekend to get a better look at everything.
Izzy,
I guess we're both typing at the same time. I wasn't paying attention to the photo of the motor peckerhead you posted. Apparently they made up the high voltage connections inside the motor and just brought out the #1,2, and 3 wires. You're going to have to do a little investigating to see if those #4,5,6,7,8 and 9 wires are accessible.
Yes, you can e-mail the photos to me at jta101@surewest.net.

Ted
 

Izzy

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Just sent an email! I'll be at the machine later today I'll dig a little deeper and report back!
 

Ulma Doctor

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i'm wondering if the spindle motor was rewound for 460v only,
most times the 9 wires are instantly visible as soon as you take the enclosure cap off
 

Izzy

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Its possible I mean the machine is from 81! Doesnt look like anything has been touched on it in a long time tho but this could also explain the "wired 460 volt" sticker I thought that may have just meant that it's connected for 460 not permanently wired like that lol guess I'll find out tonight when I get the cover off!
 

talvare

Ted A
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Izzy,

For some reason one of the posts I did last night has disappeared. Concerning the connections in the motor junction box, I wasn't paying attention to the photo you posted. It looks like wires #4 through #9 have been connected inside the motor and only wires #1, 2 & 3 have been brought out into the junction box. You'll have to do some investigating to see if you can access those six wires to make the re-connects. I have been trying to study the electrical schematics that you e-mailed to me. They are still a little difficult to read but definitely better than those posted here. It looks like those are not the Bridgeport schematics. They are apparently from TRW who I'm guessing either installed or modified the controls for this mill. There are a lot of had written changes and things that have been eliminated with white-out. It looks like the lube pump and the control circuit are 115V. There is a 115V circuit going to a symbol on the diagram that is labeled "Quill". The problem is that it doesn't indicate if that symbol is the quill motor or a control unit for the quill motor....I'm guessing the latter. See if you can take a picture of the data plate on the quill motor and post it here. These things being 115V is good news because they don't require any changes. You will just have to change the primary (input) connections on the transformer for 230V supply voltage. I will get back to you with some info on your fuses.

Ted
 

Izzy

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Ted, you are the man! I would be lost without right now brother! So I thought there was a cover for the motor being held down with 4 bolts, take the bolts out and the whole motor came out! Its a little late for me now but ill dig into the motor a little more tomorrow and see what I can find and report back.
The quill has an autofeed, I'm not sure I saw an i.d. tag on it though I'll check tomorrow and see what I can find.
 

talvare

Ted A
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i'm wondering if the spindle motor was rewound for 460v only,
most times the 9 wires are instantly visible as soon as you take the enclosure cap off
Izzy,

Mike (Ulma Doctor) may be correct about this motor. According to the data plate it was originally a dual voltage motor, but maybe somewhere in it's life it was re-wound and they just hard wired it for 460V. See if those other wires are accessible. If not, you'll have to either take the motor to a motor shop and have them bring out the 230V connections, buy a new motor or go with using a step-up transformer and run this machine on 460V. Let me know what you find out.

Ted
 

Izzy

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Alright guys so I got the motor off I'm trying to take the cover off but I need to remove this half of the pulley that is just not coming off! I've removed the 2 little pig nuts that hold it into place and sprayed some wd40 around the shaft and keyway to try and free it up, beat it with a hammer and still nothing... Any tricks to getting this out?
 

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Ulma Doctor

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you really don't need to go any further unless you are going to repair the motor or change the bearings as far as i can see.
you'd already be able to tell if it was a dual voltage motor-
the motor looks to have been wound for 460v only operation.
you are most likely not going to be able to convert it back yourself without a lot of heartache.
you could take it to a motor shop and go down that road, but i think that you may be at a point where a 460v step up transformer
may be the best and least costly option for you
unless you'd like to go through the process of conversion, that is also an option- but it's not the easiest road to travel :)
 

john.oliver35

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Is the pulley steel or cast iron? If it is steel I would rig up a puller that grasps the edges of the pulley and draws it towards the end of shaft. If it is cast iron, well I would wait for others here to respond - I would hate to tell you something that could crack the pulley.

A little heat on the pulley could help, just don't get carried away and catch any grease on the motor on fire.

Have you seen any witness marks on the shaft that the pulley has moved at all? In either direction?
 

JimDawson

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Normally they just press on/off without too much effort.

I used a 3-jaw puller to get mine off. Use some care when pulling, it is possible to break the pulley with too much pressure on the outside rim. Maybe a little heat concentrated on the pulley away from the motor shaft would be helpful. You may have to remove the endbell with the pulley half in place, then press the the pulley off using some thin plates in a press.
 

Izzy

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@Ulma Doctor there where only 3 wires coming out of the motor I just wanted to take the cover off to see if the other 6 wires have been tucked inside or if you are correct about it being wound for 460, I think I'll probably get a transformer the way it's looking tho...
 

Ulma Doctor

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if the machine ran on 460 before,
adding up the sum of all that you'd need to possibly do and the time it will take to do it, would be a wash
you could source a 230v motor and reconfigure the electrical system to any degree you can imagine.
i think you wanna make chips, throwing a lot of money and time at a conversion may not be the best money spent
especially if you can get a transformer from a surplus vendor like HGR or someone similar
you may need to hire a sparky(electrician) to do the final hook up to get your code papers straight
arguably, it will be the best way for this case IMO
 

talvare

Ted A
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Izzy,

First, that pulley should just have a key and set screw holding it on. Make sure it isn't double set-screwed (one set screw on top of another). That is a common practice. As stated by others here, be sure to support the pulley well so you don't break it.
Secondly, as for the electrical situation, you have three options : 1-get the existing motor rewired for 230V, 2- purchase a new 230V motor, 3- use a 230V to 460V step-up transformer. I think a portion of this decision would be determined on whether or not this machine is going to be a short or long term ownership. Short term, I think the quickest, easiest and MAYBE least expensive is to go with the step-up transformer. Long term, I personally would make the conversion to 230V operation. I am not an electrical engineer so am not sure how to make accurate calculations for you concerning the electrical efficiency losses you will have when stepping up to 460V operation. It may also require that you use a larger capacity RPC, I'm not sure. But these things will very likely increase the operating cost of the machine (higher electric bill). That may or may not be important to you, but something you should be aware of.

Ted
 

Izzy

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I got this machine for an absolute steal and I know it's a pretty robust machine compared to the series 1, so I don't think I'll be replacing it anytime soon I think I got very lucky on this machine as is. That being said i would like to get it up and running for as cheap and reliable as possible. They guy I bought the machine off of gave me one of his contacts for used transformers and such but as I agree with you about converting to 230 due to the electricity costs tho. Just gotta weigh out my options at this point...
 

talvare

Ted A
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Izzy
Those are Allen Bradley magnetic starters using an overload block with W46 heaters. If you change that spindle motor to 230V you will need W54 heaters. The coils are 115V so you won't need to change those. The quill motor is DC so it must be powered by the electronic control unit in the electrical panel, so you shouldn't need to make any changes there.

Ted
 

Izzy

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Awesome! I feel like this is getting easier and I'm better understanding it all as we go along that's a good thing right? Lol I deffinetly want to keep it so I'm considering still going through with the 230vac operation.
If I end up getting a new motor I'm assuming it has to be rated for atleast 4hp correct? Can I go higher? And does it have to be a specific kind of motor or any old 3phase motor will do? I've got a 5hp leeson motor lying around that has dual voltage connections but I'd have to find a way to mount it standing up as it only has a side mount plate...
 

JimDawson

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5hp would be fine........BUT, BPs and other mills use non standard motor frame sizes. Special mount and shaft. A 184C frame might work, but the standard shaft won't work with the veri-drive.
 

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mksj

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A few things that you might consider. There is no difference in electricity costs if you use 230 vs step up to 460VAC, the efficiency of transformers is on the order of 90-95%. The machine has a 4Hp motor which is more than adequate, most of us get by with 1-3Hp machines with no issues. A 5Hp would be overkill, let alone the added weight, and then there is the fitment and the cost. If you are looking at a replacement motor, heaters, fuses and maybe someone to check it when you are done, it will get pricey. Not saying it isn't the correct route, but if one is not familiar/comfortable with converting to the low voltage setup, I would recommend a 230 to 460VAC 3 phase transformer.

If you want to pursue the 230VAC conversion, I would first bring the motor to a motor shop and see what would be involved in converting to 230V. Most of the control systems/drives, run off of 120VAC secondary, so in these cases the fusing if on the output side would not be changed. The transformers have taps and would need different jumpers for 230V operation. Since this is an integrated machine with a number of control systems and drives, there is a little more to think about in switching voltages. I would price out the options, a 3 phase step up transformer in the 5-7.5KVA range in the used market would be around 300-$500, shipping could also be costly. You also have the cost of an RPC. So I would think the first step is having the motor looked at.
 

Izzy

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It seems to me like either route is going to be pricey I'll just have to price out some parts and compare the 2.
So if I understand correctly it won't make a difference in how it runs physically and cost wise whether I run it 230 or 460 only difference will be the start up cost? I'll call some motor shops around town and some use transformer dealers and see what I come up with
@JimDawson thanks for the link! Mississauga is only an hour or 2 from where I live!
 

mksj

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So if I understand correctly it won't make a difference in how it runs physically and cost wise whether I run it 230 or 460 only difference will be the start up cost
Correct. It really comes down to the ability to convert the motor to 230V and cost of the conversion to 230V vs. the cost of a step-up transformer. There should be used step up/step down transformers at reasonable prices, but it may take some time and any shipping costs. Some people will use a step down transformer and back feed the 230VAC secondary to get 460/480VAC out of the primary, there can be some issues with this approach. Typically the wingdings are designed to account for a 5-6% voltage drop in the conversion, so they are not an exact 2:1 ratio for something like a 460 to 230VAC transformer. By back feeding the secondary, you might see something like 480VAC instead of 460VAC. Most machines can operate in a +/-5% voltage window, and there should be some voltage drop in the wiring, etc. The larger the transformer, the larger the inrush current when it becomes initially energized, this can trip breakers, so I would not significantly oversize the transformer (something in the 5-12kVA range). Others may have more detailed comments and experience in this area.
 

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Izzy

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Well I was just quoted $650 for the re-wind.... I'm gonna be 600 deep atleast if I get a used step up transformer and an RPC... Another option would be to sell this motor to offset the cost of buying a 230 volt moto hmmmm....
 

JimDawson

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Your motor might not need a full rewind. I suspect that it has been rewound before and maybe they just didn't bring out all of the leads. It might be worth a trip over to the motor shop and let them take a look at it. It may just be simple as bringing the leads out which should not cost anywhere near $650
 

John Hasler

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Typically the wingdings are designed to account for a 5-6% voltage drop in the conversion, so they are not an exact 2:1 ratio for something like a 460 to 230VAC transformer. By back feeding the secondary, you might see something like 480VAC instead of 460VAC.
Other way around. In order to get 240 out with 480 in while accounting for full load voltage drop the turns ratio is slightly less than 2:1. This means that when you turn it around the no load output voltage will be slightly less than twice the input voltage. Integral horsepower motors are generally pretty tolerant of voltage variations, though, especially when never started under load and rarely (if ever) run at anything like full load.

You might consider a single-phase transformer and a "static converter" (which is really a way to turn a three-phase motor into a capacitor-start capacitor-run single phase motor).
 

Izzy

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The guy I got it from was saying to run it on static converters but I never looked into those as much as I have RPCs and such, ive contacted a few local guys and ive found transformer and vfd combos for about 600 I'll have to continue my tear down of the motor to see if the leads are tucked away or not. Thanks for the help so far guys!
 

John Hasler

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The guy I got it from was saying to run it on static converters but I never looked into those as much as I have RPCs and such, ive contacted a few local guys and ive found transformer and vfd combos for about 600 I'll have to continue my tear down of the motor to see if the leads are tucked away or not. Thanks for the help so far guys!
Unless you can find the other leads and reconnect for 240 I'd suggest going with the VFD.
 

Izzy

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I'm gonna dig into the motor a little more and see what I can find, I'm just having trouble getting the bottom half of the pulley out...
 
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