Graziano 12S

ACHiPo

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I pulled the trigger on a Graziano 12S and thought I'd upload some information.

I went from the name being vaguely familiar a few weeks ago to being convinced this was the lathe for me. I'd pretty much decided on a Hardinge HVL-H as it had the precision, work envelope, and size that works for my space. The Graziano has similar performance to a Hardinge, but with a whopping >17" throw at the headstock, and a more modest 13" throw for the length of the 32" between centers. Graziano achieves this because the tailstock ways are ~5" above the carriage ways, and the tailstock ways end about 8" from the headstock, creating a natural gap without having to remove a gap.

1 (Large).jpg 1 (Large).jpg 2 (Large).jpg 3 (Large).jpg 4 (Large).jpg 7 (Large).jpg Carriage 2 (Large).jpg
 

ACHiPo

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This lathe comes with a hydraulic duplicator, which I'd never heard of before. I've since learned that Keith Fenner has one and did a couple videos on it. Don't know if I'll ever use it, but it's kinda cool (that's what the box with the motor is above--a hydraulic pump).

It also has a pneumatic collet closer, which I'll need to figure out.

It comes reasonably well tooled. Wish it had a 4-jaw, but I can buy one (or 6 jaw). I'd also never seen a 2-jaw chuck. Not sure if I'll have any use for that. The collets appear to be pretty much junk.

I love the big dials on the carriage. I still plan to add a DRO at some point.

Here's a link to a video of the lathe in operation at the dealer's:
 

Chipper5783

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A Graz has a legendary reputation. I love those large dial - no doubt there are many features that will make it a nice machine to operate (and probably a few that are a pain). Good score. Thank you for the additional pictures.
 

ACHiPo

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Thanks guys. I had to buy this without operating it myself, so I'm a little nervous that there is something missed in the remote inspection.
 

Janderso

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You did it?
Good for you. Those are awesome lathes.
Well done sir.
 

ACHiPo

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Jeff,
Thanks. Will need that level back in the not-too-distant future. I also either need to grind a pair of precision bench stones or borrow them as the nose and spindle taper need a little touching up.

Evan
 

Chipper5783

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You are right about needing a 4J. I'd love to play with a 6J chuck, but I don't see how it is a game changer for the lathe work I do. The 6J certainly does not replace the need for a 4J independent.

I want a 6J, mainly because I don't have one (reason enough, right?). Question is - what does the 6J offer that the 3J does not (both being scroll chucks), or the greater distribution of clamping force (6 locations vs 3 or 4) - relevant for thin wall tubes or low modulus tubes (plastic pipe)?

Consider switching to a 40 position tool holder. I have a 40P on my 11" lathe and a Phase II on the 15" - preference for the 40P. The reason is it is rarely have to reposition the tool post - for quick bevels or to align a "diamond" tool.

Now, lets see the Graz run in your shop!
 

Ulma Doctor

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a 2 jaw chuck is useful for grabbing odd shaped objects and barstock , the holding power is less than a 3 or 4 jaw chuck,, but they are quick to use
 

ACHiPo

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The 6-jaw I’m looking at has 4 set screws so could replace 4jaw for all but big offsets
 

DavidR8

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Wow, that’s a beauty machine!
Well done, I’m sure you will have tons of fun with it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

eeler1

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6 jaw chucks can be either scroll or adjustable. The 6 jaw scroll chuck would be similar to the 3 jaw, but have an advantage if you are working with tubing type materials as you'd be less likely to distort the part. A 6 jaw adjustable is kinda like a 4 jaw in that you can dial in the work to make it run true. Again, the 6 jaw grips differently that a 4 jaw, so again better for tubing. If you are doing gun barrel work, or cylinders for airguns, most people would prefer the adjustable 6 jaw. Thats my take.

Ok, Evan, no excuses now. Won't be able to blame the old Logan for parts that aren't to dimension. Oh, and congratulations too, nice looking lathe.
 

ACHiPo

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Not too handy for square objects, 'tho.
Well I do have that funky 2-jaw...

Good point John.

In all seriousness I am planning to either buy a 4 or 6 jaw. The question is size--I suppose I could run bigger than 8" with that 17" swing, but not sure I'm so crazy about lifting or paying for a 10" chuck?

Pros/cons of 4-jaw vs. 6-jaw (a lot has been said above)? Optimum chuck size? Make or buy face plate?
 

ACHiPo

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Consider switching to a 40 position tool holder. I have a 40P on my 11" lathe and a Phase II on the 15" - preference for the 40P. The reason is it is rarely have to reposition the tool post - for quick bevels or to align a "diamond" tool.
Ok so you are just evil!
:devil:

Here I am happy that it looks like my AXA tool holders will fit on the new lathe and you make me Google Multifix holders. Oh well, what's another $3k?!
:dollars:

Not that I will buy one, but what size would you recommend for a 13" swing? Do the sizes scale like Aloris (I was thinking a BXA would be about right for this lathe)?

Edit: Just found this table on Penn Tools site. Kinda weird sizing, but looks like a size E or B would be good for the 12S?
1592084463134.png
 
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Chipper5783

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There are many posts on "what size QCTP?" Check your elevation off the compound. I put an "E" on my 11" - mainly because I wanted to use 3/4" tools. I knew it was going to be close, but I assumed I'd be able to sort it out. It was too high, so I skimmed the bottom surface of the holders (~0.075"). I worked out the amount to skim so that the holders for the main tools would sit right down touching the compound - that way no height adjustment device would be needed (perhaps it also has a bit more support?). After all, for the main tools - they will reside in that holder for as long as I own the lathe.

I'm sure the "E" would work great. Perhaps you could make the "B" fit, but since it is a bigger lump of iron, it would be tougher to get in close on certain set ups. Regardless, you can still do the trick of sitting the holder right down on the compound by gluing a shim to the bottom of the holder.

I did not buy the Multifix, the imports are comparable in price to other style of import holders (no complaints - sample size of one, it works great).

I suggest you drive it the way it comes, make chips for a couple years, upgrade as needed. A down side of the multifix style is that it would be tough to make your own holders (copying that spline) - the dovetail is much easier to make. I made some CXA holders for the 15" lathe - sort of to prove I could (however the holders are pretty cheap, so now I buy them as needed).
 

mmcmdl

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This lathe comes with a hydraulic duplicator, which I'd never heard of before
Otherwise known as a tracer . That will come in handy for many projects ! Congrats on the lathe , it looks nice . :encourage:
 

Janderso

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Jeff,
Thanks. Will need that level back in the not-too-distant future. I also either need to grind a pair of precision bench stones or borrow them as the nose and spindle taper need a little touching up.

Evan
I finally bought everything I need (diamond wheel) to grind some precision stones. I use the pair Bob and I did at his shop all the time. They are amazing.
 

ACHiPo

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The Graziano arrived today and I'm stoked! I was pretty nervous about buying a lathe sight unseen, but so far it seems to be exactly as advertised. Of course I won't know for sure until I get an RPC and power it up.

I hired riggers to deliver and place the machine. Not cheap, but man it sure was nice not sweating dumping the thing. They made it look easy (and safe!)
IMG_0263 (Large).JPG

IMG_0267 (Large).JPG
IMG_0270 (Large).JPG IMG_0271 (Large).JPG
 

ACHiPo

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It has a TravaDial mounted on the back of the machine, presumably for the Duplicator. There are also dial indicators on the Duplicator and on the headstock.
IMG_0280 (Large).JPG

It has some sort of carriage stop system on it with four positions. I've not seen anything like it before, so any information would be appreciated. It also has a threading dial (didn't think it did when I bought it).
IMG_0279 (Large).JPG

The ways appear to be in fantastic shape, and the carriage moves smoothly the full length of the ways, with only slightly less force required close to the headstock suggesting not much wear. Will find out for sure when I get it leveled and do a test bar.
IMG_0281 (Large).JPG
 

ACHiPo

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The 2-jaw chuck appears to be a Bison or Buck. The 3-jaw is a Chiandao--not sure if that is Taiwanese or Chinese. The collets are Hardinge, but pretty knackered.

The worst issue at this point appears to be the spindle bore taper. Something has spun in there and there are grooves that catch a nail--maybe 0.010" - 0.020". May need to find an MT5 reamer. The collet adapter is a bit rough as well.
Spindle bore close up (Large).jpg

Spindle bore with collet closer removed (Large).jpg
 

Janderso

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Evan,
You have a D1-4 spindle?
I haven't turned between centers yet with my lathe.
What I'm trying to say, the spindle taper may not be that big of a deal?
I like the way the ways are designed, wide angle taper.
They look to be in very good condition!
Is that a taper attachment-duplicator in the second picture?
 
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ACHiPo

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Evan,
With a D1-5 spindle,
I haven't turned between centers yet with my lathe.
What I'm trying to say, the spindle taper may not be that big of a deal?
I like the way the ways are designed, wide angle taper.
They look to be in very good condition!
This has a D1-4 spindle. I'd like to be able to use collets, which rely on good mating into the spindle and collet adapter.
 

Janderso

Jeff Anderson
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Yeah, I was reading up on your lathe and edited my post.
It has some sweet features, instant reverse, Gamet bearings, this lathe was very expensive.
It has the reeves drive right?
Man, that spindle is rather unfortunate. I get it now about the colletts
 

ACHiPo

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Yes it has a powered Reeves drive. I think it's a little hydraulic system that moves the pulley face in/out. It also has an RPM meter that works (Hall effect sensor).

I'm not going to worry about the spindle until I get things powered, aligned, and a few chips made. I think it should be fairly straight forward to ream the MT5 spindle bore in-situ. Reamers are not outrageously expensive at ~$150 for a set of two--carbide roughing and finishing. On a positive note the tailstock bore seems to be pristine.

Edit: The Reeves drive is a mechanical drive, not hydraulic. Haven't figured out quite how it works yet, but from the assembly drawing it looks like there is a bicycle-type chain driven by a motor that presumably screws/unscrews one of the pulley flanges to change speed.
 
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ACHiPo

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Here's the culprit that caused the MT5 damage--the 5C collet adapter.
IMG_0282 (Large).JPG

The good news is that the 5C portion is in very good shape (if a little dirty).
IMG_0283 (Large).JPG
 

ACHiPo

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Going through the documents that came with the lathe I found the original spec sheet. I'll need to put on my metric converter hat, but these seem pretty amazing from the factory. I'd be interested to know how they compare to other toolroom lathes. Looks like concentricity was 0.0002" when it left the factory.
IMG_0284.JPG
IMG_0285.JPG
 

Buffalo21

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it will never move that easy again............................
 

ACHiPo

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Instead of reaming, wouldn't you want to grind the spindle?
I'm not sure. I've done some searching and haven't found any information on how to refurbish a headstock taper. There's a decent video showing reaming a tailstock, and there are carbide reamers available to purchase, so that seems to be the way to go. It seems like it would make sense that reaming it in-situ would be the best way to maintain precise alignment.
 
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