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Hardinge HLV Serial Number 106 ( ca 1950 ) Restoration

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JPH

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#1
We intend to document the restoration of a Hardinge HLV, serial number 106. RDARLINGTON is the owner of HLV serial number 106 and will be posting here as well.

MMCGIRR gave information that HLV serial numbers began with 100 ca September 1950. The designs for the first machines changed quite often. Hence there is motivation to document the internals of 106 even though MMCGIRR has done a fine job of posting the particulars of serial number 102.

This thread begins in the middle of the restoration: When I came upon the machine, Bob had already disassembled the spindle and was wondering how to remove the left bearing. The left bearing is the spindle bearing far away from the spindle nose.

Near the nose there is one ball bearing, not two, as in some models of the HLV .

We confirmed that the gear box at the left of the head had been separated at one time. This box goes all the way to the top contour of the head, making it appear as the head casting might have been made in two parts, on a quick glance.

The left bearing is captive with an internal C snap ring and is in the gear box or on the left side of the head casting proper. It seems the gear box has to come off, in any event.

Photos have been taken and will be posted as soon as I figure out what it takes for this site.
 
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JPH

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This is a record of the components which were taken off the lathe in order to get to the left bearing.

The taper unit was removed.

The tail stock was removed.

The power feed was removed. There is a bolt inside of the control box that holds the box to the way. It was removed. The wires had been color coded and numbered. They were cut. The lead screw rides in the control box left wall, in a needle bearing. The bearing is stiff with encrusted something. It needs cleaning at least, perhaps replacement.

We took off the cross. The needle bearing that guides the screw was caked with gunk. It needs to be cleaned or replaced.

So far, the order of removal is not inter-dependent. The object of the work so far was to be able to disengage the lead screw and the lower
rod that extends from left to right a few inches below the lead screw.
 
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JPH

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It turns out that the removal of the left bearing is quite easy. There are two screws holding the head casting to the way. So, after the spindle has been removed, releasing the two screws at the bottom of the head casting allows it to be slid to the right.

The left bearing is then accessible. The left bearing is in a pocket in the head casting, and a flat ring screwed to the head casting holds the bearing in the pocket.

RDARLINGTON an I have to confirm it, but it might be that the bearing was installed incorrectly. That is, the thrust side of the bearing may have been on the wrong side. We marked the bearing before it was removed, so, we will look at the bearing installation directions to make sure that it had been installed correctly.

If in fact the bearing was installed flipped, that would explain why Bob measured noticeable axial play of the spindle.

Details of what it was like with pictures will be posted in the morning, now that an album was created for me.
 

JPH

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Bob:

I read that the sided marked "Thrust" are supposed to face away from each other, not face each other. So, that side of the bearing ought to be on the out side of the head casting.

We marked the left bearing before it was removed from the head. What does it show. Was the left bearing face marked "Thrust" on the inside or outside of the head casting?

Jung
 

rdarlington

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Both bearings came out with the "THRUST HERE" markings facing toward each other. ONE bearing in front (right), one in the rear (left).

-Bob

Bob:

I read that the sided marked "Thrust" are supposed to face away from each other, not face each other. So, that side of the bearing ought to be on the out side of the head casting.

We marked the left bearing before it was removed from the head. What does it show. Was the left bearing face marked "Thrust" on the inside or outside of the head casting?

Jung
 

JPH

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Yesterday, the administrators of Hobby-Machinist opened an album to be used with this thread.

This is the first picture for me to test the upload procedure. First, for my camera, I had to rescale (resize) the picture using GIMP. I chose 20% of the original size, just as an experiment.

Then, I saved the resized picture from GIMP as a .jpg, with 95% parameter.

I went to the album and followed the upload procedure and got the picture into the album.

View media item 95717
The end of the rule shows the location of the left spindle bearing.

While editing, when the button with the camera is pressed, "Your Photos" pops up. I clicked on the photo of interest, and a reference to the picture was inserted into the text that I was editing. My guess is that when I post this message, viewing the post will show the picture.

This ends the little test of how I got the picture up from my camera, to my computer, to the album, to be included into the text of a posting.
 
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JPH

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Bob,

On this site, only the administrator can delete a picture.

I will see if I can enable RDARLINGTON to add pictures to the album.
 

JPH

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I just enabled RDARLINGTON to add to the album named "HLV, serial number 106". You reach it by clicking on 'Photos' at the very top of the page, then clicking other buttons to find the album with the desired name.

Please confirm that you can add pictures.

I would suggest trying to upload one picture before uploading a bunch, since there are several parameters between your camera and what finally shows in the post.

Now that I know I can post pictures as well as a narrative, I will get to the meat of this thread with pictures and words. But I have to do my daily exercise before.
 

rdarlington

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I believe I was able to add a photo to the album, however after submitting, I can no longer see it. I saw a message about it requiring admin approval.
 

rdarlington

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And here's a picture of the spindle coming out of #106 showing the orientation of the bearing, including the "THRUST HERE" marking. This may or may not be correct, however I do believe it is installed the right way around.

View media item 95718
 

JPH

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Great, Bob.

Two more checks, before getting going.

1. Technically, can I use your picture in a post of mine.

2. Technically, can you use pictures that I upload to the album. These are pre-flight tests, as silly as they might seem.

JPH
 

JPH

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#12
Here is a picture of the head from the back.

View media item 95720
The large rectangle is an access port.

Near A notice that the head had been moved by the previous owner and in this picture is a bit more away from the tail than the contours indicate where the original location might have been.

Near B there is a bolt that holds the head to the way.

There is also a bolt near D, but it is not visible in this picture.

Below the letter C, near the hole, there is a serial number 106. A better picture will be posted later.

Also, near C, inside of the head, of course, is the location of the left bearing.

Removal of two bolts near B and D allows the head to slide toward the tail. Because of the over paint, a tap with a rubber mallet was necessary to break the head free.
 

JPH

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The head was moved toward the tail.
View media item 95722Notice that the head had been shimmed. The left bearing keeper is visible.
 

JPH

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After separating the head a bit more, the keeper for the bearing is visible. Removing the retaining screws reveals a thin seal, and the bearing is easily removed, without any special tools.

View media item 95723
 

JPH

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#15
RDARLINGTON reports:

The spindle bearings are 55mm x 90mm x 18mm (ID, OD, and thickness). They are ball bearings, with "Thrust" written on one side of each. This could very well be specific for serial number 106. There were many design changes in the early models.

According to his communications with Hardinge experts, the recommended lubrication for the spindle bearing is Kluber NBU15.

This for the record.
 

JPH

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#16
This is an empty post.
 
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JPH

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#17
Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356
 
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JPH

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Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356
 
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Tony Wells

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#19
Actually, that was me editing your posts, not Nelson. Sorry for the confusion. I should have identified myself.
 

JPH

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#20
Thanks for editing and or correcting. Always appreciate it.
 

JPH

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#21
Yesterday evening, Dan, a friend of Bob assisted in cleaning and reassembling the spindle into the head.

The goal of the assembly at this time is to check if there is anything wrong with the bearings; to check if the axial looseness can be taken out; to check if proper pre-load will solve the "rings on face cut" problem.

The head had been moved to the right, away from the gear box, as shown in the previous photos.

When the left bearing was removed from the left of the head, it was noticed that the "paper" seal between the bearing keeper ring and the bearing was torn at about 6 o'clock. On reassembly, that tear was moved to about 11 o'clock. It ought to be replaced.

Bob mentioned that a similar seal for the front (right) bearing was missing when he disassemble the spindle from the head. That ought to be replaced.

We found that the pre-load ring, which threads onto the spindle left of the left bearing had been cross threaded at one time. It had chips in the threads as well as other stuff. I carried a sliver from the thread home in my finger. The internal as well as the mating external threads were cleaned with solvents, oiled, and carefully mated. This was repeated several times until the threads cleaned themselves up.

When mating large diameter, fine threads, sometimes it helps to turn the parts in the opposite direction with very light pressure until the internal and external threads align. You can feel or even hear a slight click.

We did not pre-load the spindle bearings last night.

Before the spindle installation into the head, the bearings were cleaned in solvents and the special lubricant mentioned above was put into the bearings by fingers. We avoided too much lubricant.

Bob does not like the color of the machine and has already experimented with chemical removable of the paint on small parts that had been taken off the machine. Bob knows what chemicals were used.

Hence, I think the machine is destined for disassembly. At that time more photos will be taken.

Power has not been applied to the spindle. It has been suggested that just the spindle be turned under powef to see if the bearings are ok by measuring the temperature rise.
 
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JPH

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#22
The bearing lubricant that was used is Kuber Isoflex NBU 15. Its working temperature is up to 150 deg C, 266 deg F. It's shelf life is 3 years.

When the container for the lubricant was opened, Bob noticed a clear fluid and mostly white goop. The clear fluid is the oil; the goop is an emulsion of oil and soap. Kuber adds other stuff to make their NBU 15.

Notes from Machinery's Handbook, 26th edition, near page 2317:

1. Grease is an emulsion of oil and soap, or other stuff.

2. It works by the oil seeping out of the emulsion.

3. Mechanical churning, heat, shear of the grease can deplete the oil, causing less than expected oil when the bearing is working.

4. When packing the bearing, only 50 to 75% of the space ought to be filled. Overfilling of the bearing with grease causes overheating of the bearing and failure of the grease and the bearing.

5. The life of the grease is halved by approximately 18 deg F. rise in temperature.

6. Well lubricated bearings will show 10 to 50 degrees temperature rise of the race.

7. "More is better" not for grease !

8. Addition of grease at regular intervals, or when temperature rise indicates lack of lubrication.

So, Bob, lets figure out how to measure the temperature rise when we spin up 106.
 

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#23
Yesterday, pm, Bob had a dial indicator on the face of the spindle; the preload ring was hand tightened; axial play was 0.000_2, that is, 2/10 mil (0.005 mm); the spindle turned smoothly by hand.

We don't know the grade of the bearings, so all I can say is that that is within expectation.

The machine and the head were cold to the touch.

We did not apply power to the spindle.

We are considering several ways to measure the temperature of the head and will have something in place before we apply power to the spindle.
 

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#24
Bob had removed the gear box. He has taken photos during the disassembly. But we intent to take more detailed photos during the reassembly, then post those.

Tonight, the goal was to power the spindle with no load and to see if the bearings are quiet, and to see what the temperature rise is.

We started at about 300 RPM, and incrementally took it to 2000 RPM over an hour. Periodically we checked the temperature. We also listened for any peculiar noise. The spindle was quiet. There was quite a bit of noise from the variable speed contraption and the belt. The temperature rose from 51 deg F at the beginning to about 76 deg F when we stopped.

Intermittently, we measured the axial play, with the spindle stopped. The axial play was still about the same as reported above. I think that will be reduced as we increase the preload.

We have to fabricate the flat pin wrench for the preload ring. Then we will increase the preload and see how the temperature rises.

We used an optical tachometer. We also used an infrared thermometer.
 
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