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Harvey Butterfly Die Filer Rebuild

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ndnchf

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I picked up this old die filer a while back and now have it torn down. It worked, but had a noticeable knock. I found the bronze bearing block hole is pretty worn from the crank pin. The crank pin measure .530", the bearing block hole measures .544" north/south and .540" east/west. So it looks like I need to either make a new bearing block sized .001" over the pin size or bore the block hole back to round, about .545" and make a new crank pin to .544". Have any of you guys tackled this job before? Looking for advice from someone who's done this before. These machines aren't too common any more, but most that are still around are pretty worn out. I'll try to get photos of the block and pin tonight. So I don't think I'm the first to encounter this problem. Thanks - Steve

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RandyM

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What a very coooooool project.
 

chips&more

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Steve, once you get it going, you’ll wonder how you got along without one! And I would rework the pin and bushing. Make it like new again!...Dave
 

ndnchf

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Here are couple shots of the bearing block and crank pin. There is not a lot of meat left to bore the hole very much. But I'll bore it enough t get it round again and then decide how to proceed.



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chips&more

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Make a new block? With an original size hole? Then you could make the block bigger to fit in its slot better?
 

ndnchf

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Fortunately, the block still fits the slot well. I decided to try the easiest and least expensive way first. If this doesn't work, I can make a new block and pin. First I bored the block until it the hole was round. It was worse than I thought. I bored it to .562". Then I made a sleeve for the pin to bring it up to .561". So now all the parts fit together nicely. The question now is - should I case harden the sleeve with Kasenite? It was made of a fairly mild steel, maybe 1018 or 1020. The sleeve has a .016" wall thickness, so I'm a little concerned with overheating it for the Kasenite or maybe warpage or making it too brittle. What do you guys think?

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brino

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I can't answer the "to harden or not to harden" question, but I just gotta say....those are nice, clear pictures.
It's like being right in your shop.
Thanks for that, I know it's not easy sometime, but it is appreciated.
-brino
 

ndnchf

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I can't answer the "to harden or not to harden" question, but I just gotta say....those are nice, clear pictures.
It's like being right in your shop.
Thanks for that, I know it's not easy sometime, but it is appreciated.
-brino
Thanks brino. I just take them with my blackberry as I'm working. While Blackberries are dinosaurs to most smartphone users, it still works for me and has a decent camera.

After reading up on kasenit, I decided to do it, but just one application cycle. The directions suggest 3 cycles for a deep case. But with the sleeve wall only. 016" thick, I didn't want it hard all the way through for fear it would be too brittle and crack. So I did it once. Not sure how thick the case is, maybe a couple thou. But it's better than being unhardened.

I'm not a trained machinist, not even close - just a home tinkerer. I bored the sleeve about .001" larger than I wanted. So it's not the press fit I was looking for. More like a slip fit. So I'm using Permetex "Secures Gears" to lock the sleeve to the crank pin. It made just for this type of use. I've used it before with great results. Hopefully it will do the trick here.
 

ndnchf

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Nice repair. Does it run in an oil bath? Mike
Yes it does. Sorry, I should have posted this photo sooner. Its kind of a total loss oil bath. The crank drives the block which runs the spindle (which holds the file) up and down. It runs in oil, but the spindle has no seal at the bottom, so oil seeps out. Not the best design, but an oil pan underneath catches the drippings.

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A618fan2

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Nice work - and clever way to solve the worn pin-to-block issue. I didn't think of that:encourage:

John (the ex-Butterfly guy)
 

ndnchf

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I've been thinking about a way to stem oil leakage from the lower spindle bore. In the photo in post #10 above, you can see how the spindle runs up/down in the housing. The housing has about 3/4" of oil in it, but there is no oil seal of any kind on the lower spindle, so it just seeps out the bottom, requiring the oil to be checked and topped off frequently. I'm thinking about cutting a groove in the lower spindle for an O-ring to help stem the flow. The bore looks pretty good and the fit its pretty tight, but I'd need to polish the bore to reduce O-ring wear. What do you guys think ?

Other progress. I've been stripping off the old paint and rust on the various parts. The table was pretty rusty, so I soaked it in Evaporust overnight, which removed all the rust. The table is missing the spindle cover, so I need to make one. I started last night by selecting a large washer with a 1-3/4" OD. I turned the OD down to 1-5/8" to fit the table. It was already the correct thickness - 1/8". Next I need to drill/file out the notches for the two retaining screws. I may need to open the ID a little, but I'll see how the files fit after its back together and adjust as necessary.

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ndnchf

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I finished de-rusting the table and making the spindle cover this morning. I had to hand file/grind the countsunk holes for the cover screws. Not quite as nice as the missing original piece, but it will serve the purpose.

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I've read that a lot of guys think this machine runs too fast with the original 1725 rpm motor. For a production shop where speed is important and files were easy to replace, I can understand the need for speed. But I don't need high speed. So I bought 1075 rpm motor off ebay to slow it down a bit. While I'm waiting, I'll continue to clean parts and get them ready for painting when the weather warms up. I still need to decide on the color too.
 

chips&more

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You now have steel against steel. Please be mindful of the potential for galling.
 

ndnchf

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Are you referring to the spindle and o-ring idea? That may be a valid concern. I suppose it needs plenty of lubrication. I'll have to chew on this - thanks.
 

Groundhog

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OK, I give up. What is sitting in the background that appears to have wooden spokes and disc brakes?
 

ndnchf

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That's my 1924 Ford model T touring car. Model Ts come with just a small, single brake drum inside the transmission for brakes. Really not adequate in today's traffic. So I added an accessory rear disc brake kit for safety.
 

george wilson

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I have 3 die filers. The Butterfly is the one I use the most,as it is quick to set up. I STRONGLY URGE you to put a variable speed motor on yours,like I did. 1/2 H.P. is more than enough.

All these die filers run WAYYYYY too fast,which wears out the files very quickly. Also,the fast speed snaps small parts down on your finger tips. We had some women in my wife's jewelry shop,who needed to use the die filer,but after a few finger snaps were afraid of it. SOOOOO much more pleasant and controllable with a variable speed motor running MUCH slower. You can find cheap
speed controllers on Surplus Sales. Or,go to the PENN STATE catalog and they sell a small 1/2 H.P. mini lathe motor with controller for $115.00. It is powerful enough for this job,and pretty cheap.

The files are too expensive to be wearing them out. For the most part,before I got a bunch of die filer files,I have used a COARSE 6" half round Nicholson file. Grind the tang off. I don't want to ever get poked in the eye!! I ground the edges down some,too,so the front end of the file would go into the chuck. This file works very well for most work,and can be turned around to use the round side. Slowing the file down has greatly increased the file's life.
 
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ndnchf

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Thanks for your advice George. I've read your same comments on other die filer threads. While I did not get a variable speed motor, I did find an inexpensive 1/3 hp, 1075 rpm motor. This will slow it down quite a bit from the original 1725 rpm motor. But if I find it to still be too fast, I'll look into a variable speed motor. The machine is coming along nicely. I'm just finishing up painting all the parts and will start reassembly in a couple days.
 

george wilson

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NDNCHF,you will find that the die filer still is going to run way too fast,even with your somewhat slower motor. The speed reduction needed far exceeds what your new motor will do,believe me. I know!!:)

Those little mini lathe motors that Penn State sells for mini lathes used for turning out writing pens( HOW many pens can this country absorb???) look like they will work nicely,though you'll have to make a cradle to mount the motor in. A wooden one will do if you don't want to spend a lot of time on it.

Anyone who uses the Penn State motor ought to report how successful the motor was. Those motors,I just realized,probably run 3450 RPM in normal speed. I HOPE they work o.k. if their speed is cut by 3/4 speed,or so. A gear or 2 added in would help a lot to preserve the motor's strength. Should have thought of that in my previous post. Pain meds don't help!! I happened to get a larger,but still 1/2 H.P. motor from a used machinery place. A reduction gear head motor would work,but I can't tell you the speed needed off the cuff.
 

ndnchf

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George - can you post a link to a motor and controller you'd recommend? Thanks.
 

ndnchf

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Its been a little while since I made an update. This thing was extremely dirty, nasty and full of filings. So it took quite a while to get all the parts cleaned stripped, prepped and painted. I decided to go with a hammered black/dark gray color. Its going back together now. Next I'm working to adapt the new motor to it. This motor has a 1/2" shaft rather than 5/8", so I ordered a sleeve adapter for the pulley. I also need to rework the belt guard mounting. Then the switch and wiring. Overall, its coming along well.

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ndnchf

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I finally finished the Butterfly. It runs smooth, quiet and much slower than before. It will make a nice addition to my home shop. While it not quite like new, I'm quite pleased with how it turned out.

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brino

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Hey Steve,

One question:
Where are you sourcing the files?
I use my old Delta scroll saw as a filer and I am always looking for good file sources.......

Thanks,
-brino
 

ndnchf

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Brino - I have 3 files right now. As you know, they are scarce. I see them occasionally on ebay but wanted to make sure the machine came out good before spending big bucks on more files. I may try using hand files by cutting off the tang, then grinding the other end to fit the chuck. I saw a discussion about doing this somewhere. I'm still learning!
 

A618fan2

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Nice job! What's the little brass valve in the oil hole do?

John
 

ndnchf

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Nice job! What's the little brass valve in the oil hole do?

John
That valve is on the fill level hole. I open the valve, then remove the plug above it and fill with oil until it runs out the drain valve into a catch bowl. It's not really necessary. It just keeps oil from running down the side of the machine.
 
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