Heating the Shop in Vermont

[Buffalo21]

Near my previous house, there was a house exploded due to old gas line on the outside of the house. I don't know how outside line can cause gas to enter the inside. After that, the whole neighborhood got their line replaced. Many houses have concrete parking redo for free because the line is below it.

The gas leaks out of the bad pipe, seeps into the ground, findings it way into the house, through cracks or holes in the foundation, we had an elementary school explode for that reason about 30 yrs ago, luckily for the students, it happened at about 2 am,

 

[7milesup]

@GunsOfNavarone - Would you guys believe that the HVAC companies (the large "brand" HVAC companies in my area) wanted ~$5250 for the entire install? That is with a ~$1k Modine. So roughly $4250 for the gas line, hang, electric, and punch a vent thru the wall. And on top of that: I doubt the install would be as tidy. Yeah - it's expensive in my area.

For ref: the heater I got was $1500 plus $200 for the concentric vent box. The heater I got has the upgraded stainless heat exchanger - felt it was worth the extra bucks.

That install cost is crazy. I would dig the trench by hand, no literally by hand, for that kind of money.

 

[keeena]

@keeena I would, this is what scared me off. BTW, I'm an ex sport bike guy...whatcha ride? (avatar)

The bike in the pic is a Triumph Daytona 675R.

Did you ditch the sport or just move onto other types of bikes?

 

[GunsOfNavarone]

@keeena Got too old for the riding position, moved into making my own bobber/short chops now. I started with a GPZ550 back in 86, GSXR600 was my last sport bike, many in between, but man I love watching them race still... Sorry! Back to topic!

 

[COMachinist]

It is so nice to walk into a warm shop for us guys in the North during winter! I remember having to open the 16' slider door to get light in the shop to work because the fluorescent lights wouldn't kick on when it was below 20 F. I put in a 125,000 BTU overhead propane heater and leave the shop at 40 F. It'll heat up to 50 F in about 15 minutes.

Bruce

About how much Propane does a125k BTU use? To keep the shop at 40 then up to 50F.
CH

 

[FOMOGO]

I have a 120k 96% efficient furnace. Heat 2100 sf, ceilings average 14', very well insulated. I keep it at 50, and raise it to 62 when I'm working, which this winter is around 50hrs a week. Looking like I will use around 400 gal for six months. Comes out to just under $100 a month. Mike

 

[BGHansen]

About how much Propane does a125k BTU use? To keep the shop at 40 then up to 50F.
CH

I just checked my 500-gallon tank which was filled in October. It's at 60%, or about 100 gallons used so far this winter. That's about $160 at our current propane rate or $40 a month. Probably end the year with a $250 heating bill. Other than my wife's engagement ring, it's the best money I've ever spent! I have at least $50K of equipment and tooling in the shop, gives me a 365-day work year. I consider it a cost of doing business at this point.

I thought about sticking our house furnace in the shop and upgrading the one in the house. But I opted for an overhead heater so as not to give up the floor space. All of the Mr. Heater MAXX heaters were rated at 85% efficiency at the time. I could have gotten by with a 50K BTU at $450, or a 80K BTU for $500, but went with the 125K BTU at $700. The vent stacks are common as is the gas run. The 50K would have taken about 1 hour to heat from 40 F to 50 F, about 20 minutes for the 80K. The 125K heats it up from 40 - 50 in about 10 minutes. It's kicking 15% of the heat up the stack, so more loss per minute while the 125K is running, but it doesn't have to run as long to heat up the shop. The overall waste going up the chimney is the same. To me, it was worth the extra $200 or $250 to heat things up in a hurry.

I've got 3 ceiling fans on the opposite side of the room that are on the lowest speed moving air up. I have a clock/thermometer on the wall that's a foot from the ceiling that reads around 57 F after the initial heat up from 40 F. The thermostat is across the room from the heater out of the air flow at chest height. After about 20 minutes, the temp up high across the room is 52 F, pretty happy with the circulation. I used to have the fans on high but would feel the down-draft when standing next to the far walls.

The down-side of the overhead heater is the fairly concentrated warm air blast when it kicks on. Loose papers on a bench 20 feet away end up on the floor. Small price to pay for the comfort. If I had an infinite budget and was starting from scratch, I'd go with a heated floor. For me, this set-up is a good 2nd choice.

Bruce

 

[vtcnc]

Quick Update. I was at a family get together about a month ago and my uncle was going on and on about his mini-split systems he recently installed. Long story short, I was pretty much sold on the idea. I purchased a 12K BTU unit on Amazon. $850 delivered. Took me a couple of days to get it fully installed.

A few compromises were made: 1) I installed the outdoor unit it about 4 inches closer to the wall then they recommended. I wanted as much protection from falling leaves and snow as I could afford under the 12" eaves of my shop. 2) I cut and flared the 16' refrigerant lines down to about 9'. The manufacturer states that the compressor and refrigerant are sized for 25ft. of line. Depending on who you ask on the internet, this either matters or it doesn't. The "it doesn't matter group" says that the system is sized for up to 25ft. so its fine, don't worry. The "it matters" group says that by cutting the lines, you are making the compressor work harder. I'm curious if there are any HVAC mini-split installers on the forum that can weigh in on this matter.

How do I like it, you ask? Holy crap this thing is sweet. Yesterday I got home about 6:00p and went into the shop. 80F outside, about 73F inside. My shop is pretty well insulated. About 65% humidity. Turned on the mini-split, it is preset to 65F and within 15 minutes, I'm down to 68 degrees and dropping. Humidity dropped about 5% in that period. This thing exchanges a bunch of air quickly.

I haven't cranked up the heater to see how warm it can get, but it does work and it starts pushing heat quickly and in decent volume. A couple of things to note is that it takes up a decent amount of wall space, but the upside is I gained a spot on the floor (no pellet stove). It is also 120V, I ran conduit on a dedicated circuit to the unit on a 20A breaker. The noisy part is outside and when I say noisy, I mean you can detect a small electrical hum coming from the compressor when you are close enough to the unit. Based on the environment up here, and what I think my usage will be, I'm expecting a $20-40/month increase on my utility bill. All in all, I'm very satisfied with this. I reserve the right to change my mind after January when I'm using it a few times per week!

Here are some pics:

 

[rabler]

Quick Update. I was at a family get together about a month ago and my uncle was going on and on about his mini-split systems he recently installed. Long story short, I was pretty much sold on the idea. I purchased a 12K BTU unit on Amazon. $850 delivered. Took me a couple of days to get it fully installed.
...

I've installed quite a few of the Pioneer mini-splits. I'm impressed with the functionality. I probably lean more toward cooling than you will (Southern Indiana) but they are my heat source in the garage. (The separate workshop uses gas heat). I'm in the process of installing 5 units in our house, using the multi-zone outdoor compressors, so two compressors. This will replace the 30 year old central AC, keeping the gas heat furnace.

My two complaints on these units are 1) the symbols for heat/fan/cool/dry modes on the remote are tiny, so distinguishing between the modes is difficult with older eyes, and 2) the lowest temperature you can set is something like 62 degrees, I would prefer to be able to set the garage to low 50's when I'm not using it. I end up using "Freeze Protection" mode which targets the mid-40's.

When the new workshop gets built, I plan on a 30k unit for a well insulated 2200 sq ft.

I'm *NOT* an HVAC tech, so take this with a that in mind, but my impression is that shorter pipes are fine for the charge. A fair amount of the charge is used in the units so the relative change per foot is small. The base charge is 30 ounces. The technical brochure calls for an additional charge per foot over 25 feet of 0.16 ounces per foot. So at 9 feet, you are at 16 feet less than the minimum charge, or 2.56 ounces over. That is a fairly small percentage. You are only 7 feet under the minimum pipe length they sell (16ft). I suspect that your are well within the normal operating range of the compressor.

 

[Janderso]

Yeah buddy, it's nice to have a cool shop in the summer and a warm shop in the winter.
I bought the one ton Mr. Cool brand =DIY for $1,300.
Love every minute of it.