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Help selecting (understanding) carbide selection

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GunsOfNavarone

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So I came across an incredible error on pricing on Amazon. I purchased a Mitsubishi 1/2" boring bar for $ 34. Immediately after purchasing it went back up to $180 which seems to be the norm. There were recommendations on what inserts to use with it, which I also purchased from a supplier here in Denver. They are Mitsubishi as well and their website says they should be 3/8" but what I received is 1/2" . Disappointing as these are $14 each! Anyway, before I came to the conclusion that I was sent the wrong inserts, i had to give myself a crash course lesson in the understanding of the coding of inserts. Not gonna lie....still very lost.
I have the formula of the 1st through 10th numbers and what they are supposed to represent. I'm not finding it to be easy to follow. I'm just gonna throw down layman attempt at this maybe we can discuss.
1) insert shape.
T for triangle
2) relief
N for 0
3) tolerance
not sure, seems as if E is the norm
4) clamping system
T one sided with chip breaker
5) size
16 equals 9.525mm (3/8" )
6) thickness
not sure as it didn't come with one...let's say
03 (3.18 mm)
7) comer radius
Again, don't know let's say
04 (.04)n
8) cut edge
since its for threading, let's say
F sharp edges
9) cut direction
R right-hand
10) chip breaker style
don't know, let's say L.P.
what does all that equate to?
TNET160304RLP
Now, nothing like that exists. Can someone help me understand this? If it has value to the convo, my tool is
Mitsubishi MMTIR102-0.60-2.5C
THANK YOU!
 

MalR

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You’ve got the right approach to decoding the manufacturer’s details but either some of your info is incomplete or the code on the box isn’t fully detailed. I buy a lot of surplus inserts and not all codes are standardised, especially the grades, which are proprietary, so I keep a cheat-sheet handy for the common manufacturers. You can download it (it’s free but comes with no warranty!) at https://www.felstedskiver.com/workshop/DS30-Inserts_for_indexable_tooling.pdf
This should help you decode all but the most obscure codes. If you’re still not sure, could you upload an image of the label on the insert box and I’ll see if I can help.


Mal
 

GunsOfNavarone

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Thanks Mal! Though I would love help selecting The correct insert (which I believe I did, but I think what They sent doesn't match what part number should be. These are 1/2" not 3 /8" as Mitsubishi say they should be.
This is kind of "giving a man a fish versus teaching him to fish". I do badly would like a somewhat working understanding to ordering inserts. I have many AccuSize tools that will need new inserts, though I can just copy what was there, i would like to get better fits when needed. There are so many combinations and I feel I'm shorting myself if I just replicate. I will be doing titanium stainless and copper, and even the base metal has a lot of options.
Thanks much,
Sean
 

MalR

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Sean,

Threading inserts don’t follow the international standard completely because it doesn’t include more complex tip shapes, but a lot of the code is still meaningful.

You show two codes that only differ by one letter:
MMT 16ERA60-S VP15TF
MMT 16ERG60-S VP15TF

The first 3 letters refer to shape. The first M is a Mitsubishi code, the second M likely refers to tolerance and the T to the hole/chip breaker, though the T could also refer to the triangular shape.

Next comes the size and here the code is close to standard. The 16 refers to the edge length of the triangle in this case 16mm (your tool is designed for 11mm inserts so there’s one mismatch). The E is used to refer to whether the insert is for Internal (I) or External (E) use, in this case you have external inserts but an internal tool so another mismatch. The RA60 refers to a thread angle of 60 degrees but only a partial profile. I can’t find a reference to GA60 so these inserts may be obsolete. The -S indicates the tip radius is 0.001mm. Without the -S the radius would be 0.002mm. This is a very sharp tip for threading and is probably intended for cutting very fine pitch threads.

VP15TF is the grade. If you refer to the grade tables in my cheat-sheet you’ll see it’s a general ferrous metal coated grade.

Hope this helps,

Mal
 

aliva

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Carbide Depot has an excellent insert chart check it out very simple to navigate
 

GunsOfNavarone

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So Mal, in a very simplified level, I would need a T-i -11-R tool? It must be triangular it must internal it must be 11mm and it must be right direction. I have just found it doesn't exist this way (not the tool, but the numbers) I though I read this TOOL has the relief built in so I need 0 relief angle of it will be multiplied.
since I'm not going to get this convoluted, not standardized "system", can you lead me to a frame and exact model to purchase? I will be doing fine threads and course threads, hence the 2 inserts I thought I purchased.
Cheers
 

jdedmon91

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First of all that is a threading insert like it has been pointed out. My rule of thumb is on purchasing inserts is 1st if it’s a heavy use insert (in my case a CNMG) type I’ll try to by surplus inserts off of eBay, or other sources. Also I’m not a brand snob but it seems the Japanese, Sandvick, Kenametal, and Iscar has the best life. If you get a good steel grade it will cover 90% of your turning needs. 2nd inserts are standard geometry so you can buy imported Chinese tool holders and put good inserts in them ( unless you find a deal on the name brand holder )

The only time I ran into a problem is I was gifted a boring bar from Solid Rock. Steve sent a Sumitomo insert and recommended a certain insert. I found some of the same inserts in a Sandvick on eBay for about 1/2 the price. However the screw bore is .010 smaller than the Sumitomo one. So I’ve had to order them at full price “ouch”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

mksj

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If you go to the web page for the MMT insert holder it gives some references as to the recommended inserts, you can use any brand. The key factor is the size which is an 11 IR which is the insert size (1/4") and that it is an internal thread only. The next numbers are the type of thread, so an A60 or AG60 is a partial profile 60 degrees denoting the thread pitch range.

So if you are looking for inserts you need either one of the following:
11 IR A60 for a right hand internal thread with a pitch range of 48-16 OR
11 IR AG60 for a right hand internal thread with a pitch range of 48-8 (not shown in table but available)
If you are doing left hand internal threads then an 11 IL insert is specified.

298294

An external lay down threading tool is different and looks like this which is a 16 ER AG60 doinng a 7/8-14 thread:
298296

The lathe holder information I have previously posted, it gives some common holders and insert designation. If you need more specifics for your other holders you can either post here or pm me and I can help.
Mark
 

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MalR

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So Mal, in a very simplified level, I would need a T-i -11-R tool? It must be triangular it must internal it must be 11mm and it must be right direction. I have just found it doesn't exist this way (not the tool, but the numbers) I though I read this TOOL has the relief built in so I need 0 relief angle of it will be multiplied.
since I'm not going to get this convoluted, not standardized "system", can you lead me to a frame and exact model to purchase? I will be doing fine threads and course threads, hence the 2 inserts I thought I purchased.
Cheers
Your choice is limited to the inserts in the Mitsubishi catalog that fit your tool. Maybe my previous link didn’t work so here it is again http://www.mitsubishicarbide.net/webcatalog/OMB06F001BLogic.do?mkt_rykshu=mmus&gng_rykshu=enus&ctgr_rykshu=turning_inserts&srs_id=10000661&sihn_id=20058164&zish_di_bnri_id=&tlng_sht_disp_flg=1{nope, link still doesn’t work but do a Google search on your tool’s part number then click the available inserts link}
And just in case, here’s the table:

Each insert is designed for a different type and size of thread so you need to know this before choosing the code. For example if you were cutting a standard M10x1.5 thread you’d look up the root radius or truncation (there are phone apps, online calculators and paper charts for this) in this example it’s 0.188mm=0.007”. This give an insert code of MMT11IR200ISO (11mm insert, Internal, Radius 0.200mm). You could also use this insert to cut larger threads but not smaller as the root radius will be too large and the bolts may not fit. Does that make sense?

Mal
 
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MalR

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For example if you were cutting a standard M10x1.5 thread you’d look up the root radius or truncation (there are phone apps, online calculators and paper charts for this) in this example it’s 0.188mm=0.007”. This give an insert code of MMT11IR200ISO (11mm insert, Internal, Radius 0.200mm). You could also use this insert to cut larger threads but not smaller as the root radius will be too large and the bolts may not fit. Does that make sense?
Mal
Just to add to my last post that it’s not the diameter of the thread that’s important but the pitch. You could cut a 100mm diameter thread with the same insert as long as the pitch is 1.5mm.

Mal
 

GunsOfNavarone

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Thanks Mal & all that jumped on board. I'll tell ya, i was so frustrated with this, i have the formula to my wife to read and had her come up with her own answer... It really isn't standardized at all. P.s. I have never gone to my wife for anything in the technical/mechanical in our 29 years.
it come down to just searching for 11ir inserts do the trick. Now if I needed something special (radius or chip breaker etc...) I'd be in trouble again. AND this is one insert of many that I need to replace. I'm guessing I'll be back here when I need others. I think many folks here that have been doing this a while take it for granted, but this is confusing.
one question for you Mal, I will be doing both fine and course threads, say I need something outside the range of that insert, is that the AG60 vs A60 in this case?
Thank you
 

MalR

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Here’s a guide to the Mitsubishi code for inserts for your tool courtesy of carbidedepot.com

The difference between the A and AG inserts is the range of pitches they cover. If you want to keep an insert in stock to cover most eventualities the AG is more universal.

Finally (I hope!) do you need L or R inserts? If you’re cutting internal threads the conventional way with the tool cutting on the bore wall nearest you and cutting from right to left, you will need a L insert. This is the opposite to the inserts you bought. This means that the size&shape code would be 11ILAG60.

Hope that helps,


Mal
 

mksj

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Per what Mal indicated, the AG60 is a partial thread cutter which will cover a pitch range of 48-8 TPI. There are full thread inserts which are spcific to a particular type and pitch thread, really only needed for special threads or if you do a lot of threading with a particular pitch, otherwise go with a partial thread which cuts like 80-90% of the ideal thread. My internal threading tooling originally came with an A60 insert and I often ran into problems with not being able to achieve a deep enough thread cut for the TPI, so the AG60 is preferred unless all you plan to do is finer threads. If you are doing traditional right hand threading you would need an IR type insert, if you flip the bar 180 degrees and cut your thread from the inside out then you need an IL type insert. If you are doing external threads then you would need ER (right hand thread) and possibly EL (left hand thread) inserts. You do not need to buy a ton of inserts, I am still on my original insert after lots of threading and I still have two more cutting tips on the same insert I haven't used.

As far as nomenclature of holders and inserts, and all the nuances, in a way it is like learning a new language and takes time to understand the basics. It took me a long of time to first figure out the types of holders and insert styles that I need. Then I looked at the nomenclature and it started to make sense. There is also two naming standards which is ANSI (imperial) and the ISO (metric) so you can get burned with some of the metric specific tooling that requires metric inserts or proprietary inserts. There is a separate nomenclature for the holders and the inserts they take. In the US ANSI is the predominate nomenclature. The first thing to determine is the size of the holders that fit your lathe holders, so something like a BXA is typically matched to 5/8" tool holders or 3/4" with an oversized holder. The increments for holder sizes is 1/16" so for 5/8" tooling they will be a size 10, 3/4" will be size 12. When you know the tool holder sizes you need you then determine the type/styles of insert you want to use, the rake (positive, neutral, negative) of the insert as it sits in the pocket and the angle of the insert relative to the work (so something like left hand, neutral, right hand, etc.). There are lots of other details, but after awhile it starts to make sense when you start looking at the lathe tooling catalogues. It just takes time, the same holds true for grinding your own cutters.
 
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MalR

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If you are doing traditional right hand threading you would need an IR type insert, if you flip the bar 180 degrees and cut your thread from the inside out then you need an IL type insert. If you are doing external threads then you would need ER and possibly ER inserts.
Oops, yup you’re correct, my mistake. IR and ER profiles are flipped by the manufacturers so Sean, the designation should be 11IRAG60 for traditional threading.

Mal
 
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