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VN High Speed Sub Head

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BROCKWOOD

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These are pages from a 1940s & a 1960s Van Norman catalog.

01.jpg

Specs are highlighted here in the hope that they are more readable.

02.jpg
 

BROCKWOOD

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Jason had 1 of these for sale for a VN no22 because it is too big for his mill. So naturally I had to weigh the odds of whether it would fit my no24. Usually the answer would be yes - but the fine print concerning the no22 is they could be made to order so that it would fit older spindle sizes too. So, I bought it. Jason has a knack for making shipping boxes!

Previews.
For sale pic.
22 HI SPEED HEAD 01.jpg

85 pound box came today.
22 HI SPEED HEAD 11.jpg

Sneak peak.
22 HI SPEED HEAD 13.jpg

Restoration & measurements coming as I can.
 

BROCKWOOD

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The main thing to check (if you can find one) is the centering size. This example is 4.120".

22 HI SPEED HEAD 03.jpg

My mill needs a 5.5" hub size. Here you can see the difference.

IMG_20181206_125536366.jpg
 

BROCKWOOD

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Lathe went down & need it to make a tool for the bearing retainer. Schematic started but, file too big. Just have to wait.
 

BROCKWOOD

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Looks like I can exchange the mount portion for 1 that will fit my mill & mine goes to fit another mill. Win Win. The lathe, still the brake on all my projects is getting oh so close. This is gonna be good!
 

BROCKWOOD

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Well, the friend with the correct mount portion for me has a 1R series mill. Although his mount portion will fit mine ...... mine won't fit his. Therefor we have no swap. In other news I scooped up a slotter that has the correct adaptor to fit itself & the subhead to my mill! Yeah it uses the same 22 style as my subhead & the adaptor has me in business! Documentation will be fun!!!
213.jpg215.jpg
 
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Superburban

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Cool deal. Can't wait to see pics of it in action.
 

BROCKWOOD

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Thanks Superburban! Yeah, I keep getting closer to that glorious stage of really putting all this to work for me. I really thought "this is the year I break ground & build my shop. 2019 to resurrect a 1959 Butler Building I have laying in pieces seems fitting. Best go on & pull that 3 phase into my garage at this rate. Gotta love the kids & grandkids & && . I'm on hi center at the moment though. My lathe motor is out for a rebuild. I need to finish a tool to blow this hi speed head down to basic components for documentation / refreshing too.

I have made my mind up on 1 thing though: I'll punch through my foundation to get 1ph power out & 3ph power in. It is a house in a nice neighborhood & just 1 more hole in the brick will be too much.

Yeah, I do tend to be slow on major decisions (really wanted to resurrect my shop instead - but tired of waiting).

As an aside: Is 0.250 backlash on the table X axis excessive? Table / Knee assembly leaks too. At least the head section has held it's oil level steady!
 

ericpelletier000

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1/4” backlash is a lot. Hopefully you got the decimal point in the wrong place. Even still —before the internet convinced us backlash was the enemy of production, the old timers were turning out marvelous, accurate parts on machines with dished ways and 1 1/2 turns worth of backlash.

As far as oil holding, my machines are like a Land Rover — if it ain’t leakin’ It’s empty!!
 

BROCKWOOD

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This week has been all about restoring the High Speed Universal Subhead.

Got my tool to remove the adjustment nuts made & had to modify a spanner to fit 5/16" pin holes. The spanner now fits the collet retainer. This was needed to provide resistance while removing the adjustment nuts from both the mount section & the elbow section inputs.

20190608 08.jpg

The mount section is simple with only a bevel gear with internally splined shaft.

20190604 03.jpg

It is mounted on large roller bearings. Gear mesh is adjusted with babbit coated brass shims.

20190604 02.jpg

So, the 1st section was restored quickly. Gear mesh was dialed in & this part was set aside (along with VN 24 sump housings).

20190606 06.jpg

The elbow was really more of the same as it too is really just a couple of bevel gears on a shaft with large roller bearings etc. I didn't like how this nut area in the forefront looked. So, I'm using my head porting skills to smooth it out.

20190608 02.jpg

Still onward & upward. Here is the main head getting ready for rebuild.

20190608 04.jpg

20190608 07.jpg

More to come.
 

BROCKWOOD

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This is the main housing cover, as seen on the left side of the last pic above. I wanted to highlight the casting number, but it is too crude. It reads
V.N.M.T. CO.
12 - 718

20190608 09.jpg

This casting, by modern standards did some unexpected shrinking - or else they would've chosen a different way to mark it. As far as machining it to size: It's good! Somehow, this ID was simply part of the mold. By the 50s auto manufacturers (in America) were doing the opposite impression of such ID's. I can't help but wonder if Van Norman slowly slipped behind the times. American Politics had to suck for them as evidenced by all manufacturing of this type having long since been moved overseas with very few exceptions.


It's the same part for all sizes: Up to you to have the correct mount to fit it to your mill.
 

BROCKWOOD

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Progress! 2 portions completed, ready & joined together. 360 degree rotation is smooth. Gear mesh is spot on & bearings are good.

20190613 01.jpg

The handle came to me Orange. Since all period pics are B&W, I cannot say if this is stock. So, I went with HEMI Orange!

20190613 02.jpg

Now it's on to the complicated portion. Looks like the housing will be a good place to start.

20190613 06.jpg

20190613 05.jpg
 
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BROCKWOOD

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Another Garlock Klozure seal on the lower end of the ram. I emailed my local Garlock rep for replacements & no word. The top seal was bad. I replaced it with a seal like the ones used on the crank snout of an engine. This lower seal is intact, so we'll see if it performs as expected soon enough.

20190614 02.jpg

Not gonna watch paint dry on the housing.

20190614 07.jpg

Cleaning up internals instead. The spindle has a brass looking coating where it rides in the bearings. Any idea of what that is? I'd like to use it again on reassembly.

20190614 06.jpg

Another pic of the outer portion of the ram.

20190614 03.jpg

There aren't any seals provided for this. No need to polish it then.
 
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BROCKWOOD

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The ram drive is installed. Here the preload on the bearings is set using a home made spanner & a center punch. Not sure if the 2 opposing holes serve any other purpose.

20190615 01.jpg

Rotary motion is applied to this section of the drive & transfers that motion via the splined inside portion on to the ram section that includes the linear up & down adjustment. In other words this portion only spins.

The ram is going back together here. The collet retainer has been soaking in Metal Rescue. Same as Evaporust chemically speaking. It's not that the retainer was rusty at all. It's just that leaving parts in the soak for a week blackens them!

20190615 02.jpg

Taking some pics with only 2 hands limits my ability to accurately express what is happening. The modified, to fit 5/16 holes, spanner is used to set the preload on the spindle while the pry bar keeps the nut stationary. As I thought more about the brass surface that rides inside the bearings on this portion, I wondered if this was similar to a Speedi Sleeve. Since run out is around a thou, I'll tackle that once it becomes an issue.

Now seeing how it all fits together & operates, there shouldn't be any reason to break the whole thing down again. The ram simply adjusts down until it drops out. The limit screw & handle prevents this, unless the limit nuts & handle are removed.
 
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BROCKWOOD

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So, I checked my questionable National oil seal on the shaft & it was good. Now for the housing portion or outside fitment, it was either a version that practically jumped into the bore / recess or this 1. Put it in the freezer for 2 hrs before trying it. Very disappointed as 1 side mushroomed out. So, I grabbed a square punch & played body man to suck the side back in & rammed it home. Wear from this seal will be expanded over a wider area than the typical groove. Better? Time will tell.

20190615 03.jpg

Still have a few parts to clean up - but getting there! Oh, in other news, since the Garlock rep has ignored me? I applied for his job!
 

BROCKWOOD

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Just waiting on a few bolts to arrive & it's complete. Rare view under the cover to see how it operates.

20190616 01.jpg
 

BROCKWOOD

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Looking good Manderioli! What size tool holders fit your mill spindle? I'm glad for the type of spline drive I have since it fits a standard size tool holders. I just have to cut the shoulder down on the holder for a good fit.
 

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The subhead will take the VN C collets but I need to make the key to hold the collets.

I’m waiting for the 13/16” spline shaft from McMaster to plug into an endmill collet holder instead of a one piece adapter shaft.
 

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I too need to make that key. I do have that key in my VN 7 1/2 divider. Just have to dig it out for a pattern. I'll draw it up & post here when I do. McMaster carries that shaft. Good to know. What size & type of end mill collet holder does your no10 take? I just received C Type colts for the subhead! Not a full set, but a good start!

25.jpg

Can anyone say what the through bolt on the side cover is for? I thought it was to lock the spindle vertically, but it isn't acting that way. Maybe the extra washer under the head (as received) is preventing it?

20190619 02.jpg

EDIT: Never mind, brain fart. It does lock it vertically. I was checking rotation while tightening it. Sometimes I just have to laugh at myself.
 
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Manderioli

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I will turn the one end of spline shaft to 3/4” to fit the 3/4” collet.

I have considered making the key from 3D printed stainles steel/bronze instead of trying to machine one. Likely will cost $30 per unit. Unless someone has extras laying around.

I also need a solution for the collet closer to securely hold collets in subhead. The version equipped with mine has too large of opening.
 

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Cal Haines

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There are two different collet drawings out there with slightly different versions of the keyway. This drawing summarizes them:
296947

Here's my design for the collet key, made by machining down a #608 Woodruff key:
296948

I have yet to make one and I don't have a real Van Norman "E-37½" key to check the finished depth. But people have used the above to make keys and so far have not indicated that it won't work. As far as the "tit" on the key goes, my plan is to make the key, insert it in the spindle with a collet, then use a transfer punch to mark the location of the dowel pin. The dowel pin hole is machined perpendicular to the flat, so it should be pretty straight forward.
 

Manderioli

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There are two different collet drawings out there with slightly different versions of the keyway. This drawing summarizes them:
View attachment 296947

Here's my design for the collet key, made by machining down a #608 Woodruff key:
View attachment 296948

I have yet to make one and I don't have a real Van Norman "E-37½" key to check the finished depth. But people have used the above to make keys and so far have not indicated that it won't work. As far as the "tit" on the key goes, my plan is to make the key, insert it in the spindle with a collet, then use a transfer punch to mark the location of the dowel pin. The dowel pin hole is machined perpendicular to the flat, so it should be pretty straight forward.
I’m assuming from the second drawing the #608 key needs to be machined by 0.1691”?
 

Cal Haines

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Here's a better drawing that incorporates both of the source drawings:
296995

Woodruff keys have a little flat on the round side, parallel to the flat side. I think the best bet is to measure from the flat and machine the key down to about 0.21", which should be about 0.23" from the major flat. That should leave a little clearance to the bottom of the keyway. You don't want the key to bottom out in the keyway an keep the taper from seating.

It's been a long time since I looked at this. I don't know where I came up the the 0.016" number, the amount that the key extends into the ID of the spindle. I think the first drawing has the key intruding too far into the ID and will keep the collet/tool from entering the spindle. 0.016" may even be too much.

Let me know how this works out for you.
 

BROCKWOOD

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Cal has the solution for the key that we need Manderioli! The key in my divider is stuck & worn. Might have to make 2. Manderioli & I both have collet closures that don't hold regular "C" collets. I'm trying to come up with a 'washer' design that captures in the closure while centering on the collet & drawing it in as well. For now I am distracted by coming up with a collet extractor. Yup, stuck like chuck.

Does anyone have pics of what the 'C' collet closure looks like? What does the collet extractor look like?
 

Cal Haines

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Member Daryl (Uglydog) posted a PDF with parts diagrams for several sub-heads in this post: Vn Dividing Head Index Assembly - post #30

If you go to the third page, drawing 16-7740-A, the collet retaining caps are shown. I'm not sure why there are three different versions. One must be for "C" collets and a second is probably used with lug-driven tool holders. Unfortunately, my high-speed sub-head is without the retaining caps as well. I suspect that part 12-761-D, which appears to be a plunger sitting behind the tool, is what was used to eject tooling from the spindle via a drift applied from the rear of the spindle.
 

BROCKWOOD

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I thank you Cal. You always have good info & observation! If only those parts had a parts list with descriptions. Glad to have this much actually!

This is the head portion of that drawing - just to get a bigger pic out there.
07.jpg

What is beyond my experience is in seeing the (not 'C' type) retainers. What else fits that bore? 'C' type tool holders is best guess. This is why I wondered what the no10 mill itself uses for tool holders.
 
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