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Homemade Evapo-rust

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Andre

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I mentioned I use a homemade "Evapo-Rust" type cleaner for rust removal and was asked to explain, so I figured a new topic would be useful for searching in the future.

I first stumbled upon it as a substitute for PCB etching acid, and quickly discovered it worked well at many things. It's roughly 50 water/30 vinegar/20 Hydrogen Peroxide/and enough salt to dissolve. You will need to refresh the hydrogen peroxide occasionally as oxygen will come out of solution.

This really isn't cost effective to be used on large parts, but for small items it works quite well. Leave the item to soak for a few hours, then under running water scrub the rust off with a wire brush. The surface will be left with a matte grey finish that's very easily polished with scotchbrite.

These are the pictures. I picked this drill chuck up at a thrift shop for #1 and am still trying to free it up. The cleaning was all done in the manner written above. I have not cleaned it up with scotchbrite yet.

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The wire brush was hard to get into the annular ring gear, but the rust is loose there. Notice how clear and readable the letting is.

I'm trying electrolysis to get into the body of the chuck and free it up. If not, well, it was $1 after all...

6xFg166.jpg

vUVV6Sg.jpg

6xFg166.jpg

vUVV6Sg.jpg

6xFg166.jpg

vUVV6Sg.jpg

6xFg166.jpg

vUVV6Sg.jpg

6xFg166.jpg

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mattthemuppet2

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interesting, thanks for the write up. Now that you've got it that far, I would simply press the sleeve of, remove the rings and then gently tap the jars down into the body. Once you have them all down you can tap them out in turn. Electrolysis won't help much as it's line of sight.

To be honest though, looking at the chuck holes I'd wager that the chuck'll be toast. I've taken apart a few that looked a bit like that and the scroll or teeth on the jaws (or both) were always banged up. Never hurts to try though and if you do screw it up, you've only wasted a buck and some time :)
 
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Andre

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The chuck is actually stuck solid so I'm not sure if pressing the sleeve off is possible. I do have a one ton arbor press though.......

If the chuck is apart I'd prefer to manually clean everything, because although it's probably shot I don't want to take a chance with hydrogen embrittlement on the threaded ring.

I knew the chuck was toast. I set it back on the shelf at the store but picked it up again later knowing I'd always think "What if...." At the least it's a neat decoration.
 

Uglydog

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I'm not a chemistry guy.
Does Oxy-Clean detergent work the same way?
Wonder if it'd be less expensive, and easier to control the concentration.

Daryl
MN
 
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Andre

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I'm not a chemistry guy.
Does Oxy-Clean detergent work the same way?
Wonder if it'd be less expensive, and easier to control the concentration.

Daryl
MN
Never tried it, the oxygen would probably help but just itself in water probably wouldn't work very well because it's not that acidic. But wait, there's more!
 

mattthemuppet2

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The chuck is actually stuck solid so I'm not sure if pressing the sleeve off is possible. I do have a one ton arbor press though.......

If the chuck is apart I'd prefer to manually clean everything, because although it's probably shot I don't want to take a chance with hydrogen embrittlement on the threaded ring.

I knew the chuck was toast. I set it back on the shelf at the store but picked it up again later knowing I'd always think "What if...." At the least it's a neat decoration.
should be fine to press off - that doesn't really have anything to do with the chuck being locked up. That's more to do with the jaws being stuck in their bores or the ring gear/ jaw teeth being gunked up or rusted together. My guess is just solidified crap, although I did press one chuck apart to find it full of jaw teeth and bits of chuck metal.

no harm in trying though, I've resuscitated chucks that looked almost as bad as that and they're working just fine.
 
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Andre

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I will let you know if it works, Matt. I might just have to clamp down my arbor press for this! I also know a guy with a 2 ton press if need be.
 

mattthemuppet2

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fingers crossed :)

an arbor press should be fine - if it takes more force than that then something is going wrong and you should stop. Making sure it's pressed straight is the key. Many (sensible) people bore out a piece of tubing to hold the sleeve and make sure it's straight, which isn't a bad idea. one of mine cocked in the press, jammed and split the sleeve.
 

pjf134

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Try a little ceramic heater close to the part as I have done this on parts that do not move and it worked. The metal will expand, but the gunk will not. While the part is very warm try to move it, and once it moves then clean the parts that are hard to get to.
Paul
 
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Andre

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Try a little ceramic heater close to the part as I have done this on parts that do not move and it worked. The metal will expand, but the gunk will not. While the part is very warm try to move it, and once it moves then clean the parts that are hard to get to.
Paul
I heated the chuck several times on the stove (not to a bronze color) but to the point where it wasn't touchable and you can hear the moisture on your fingers sizzling. No luck.

I pushed it apart with the press, using aluminum blocks supporting the hood and a brass compression fitting sleeve going around the jaws bearing on the body. Took around 500 pounds on the press, but that's just a guess from the 20:1 reduction. I soaked everything in a carburetor cleaner bucket, washed everything in the sink with a wire brush, buffed up the jaws a little to remove raised rust, and tomorrow I should be able to press it back together.

I have a feeling this is a very old chuck, and it doesn't have much identification as far as jaw positioning goes. I'll have to play around looking at the thread offsets to find out where they go in relation to each other. They don't have the progressively deeper grooves that Jacobs points out in their assembly guide.

With luck my next project will be a 0MT to 3/8-24 UNF arbor for the AA109.
 

Steve Shannon

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Vinegar is nothing in comparison. With the hydrogen peroxide it's much, much faster!
What strength hydrogen peroxide are you talking about? It's available in 3% (first aid) to about 35-50% for bleach. Higher strengths up to 90%+ can be made for use as rocket propellant but it'll dissolve your flesh if you're stupid.
 

strantor

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I first stumbled upon it as a substitute for PCB etching acid, and quickly discovered it worked well at many things. [...] You will need to refresh the hydrogen peroxide occasionally as oxygen will come out of solution.
How well does it work for etching PCBs? When using for PCBs can it be "rejuvenated" by adding more peroxide? or does it just stop working after a while like ferrric chloride?
 
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Andre

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I believe 2%. Not much but a little really helps.

Never tried etching PCB's. I think I started researching acidic solutions for electroplating.
 

mksj

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Muriatic acid which comes in gallons in the pools areas of most hardware/pool stores will eat through rust very quickly, like minutes. You can dilute it down about 50% with water, always add acid to water, never the other way around. The stuff can is quite caustic, so always where heavy gloves or use tongs for small stuff, and always use full eye protection. Use it in my pool to correct the pH, use it on anything rusted, does quick work of dissolving it away. Need to prep or coat the metal soon after as it will rust quickly.
 

dogma

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Is it necessary to attempt to neutralize any acid left in the surface of the metal after "pickling"? That is, a procedure beyond rinsing and scrubbing the surface with water? I made a first attempt at removing heavy mill-scale overnight with vinegar. It is currently flash rusting as the parts will be welded, so it is not much of an inconvenience to hit them with a non-woven disc before coating.

I suspect additional processing isn't require as etching primers seem to use acid(s). However, I've have seen youtube videos where sodium carbonate is used. I figured that would just be another residue to deal with before coating?
 
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Andre

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I didn't use baking soda or any other base to neutralize any remaining acid. I did oil it however, and have had no issues with rust.
 

Mxmark4

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I use vinegar and hydrogen peroxide to clean my supressor baffles. Its referred to as the "dip" in the supressor arena.
 

Jidis

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How well does it work for etching PCBs? When using for PCBs can it be "rejuvenated" by adding more peroxide? or does it just stop working after a while like ferrric chloride?
Strantor- You've probably already heard of this, but the hardware store muriatic acid mksj mentions is a pretty darn good one. I believe it's two parts standard drugstore hydrogen peroxide to one part acid. I moved from years of ferric chloride (yuck!) through a brief stint with sodium persulfate, then found the muriatic acid mix. It's cheap as dirt (they usually require me to buy too much acid), and it seems to do its own heating. It can get weak after a while, and I think I narrowed that down to the acid, so I'm not sure what the shelf life is, but again it's cheap! Just read up on it and follow all the safety precautions (mix in the right order, have water and baking soda on hand, and don't breathe it). It's some dangerous crap, but I guess most of that other stuff is too.

- Don't mean to sidetrack the thread with off-topic. I'm actually looking for rust info myself. :)

Take Care
 

brino

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Don't mean to sidetrack the thread with off-topic. I'm actually looking for rust info myself.
Hi Jidis,

First, Welcome to the Hobby-Machinist!

Second, Thanks for jumping in with your experience. It's always good to get advice from people that have actually used it and other solutions.

This site has a bunch of stuff on dealing with rust (removal, prevention, products, electrolysis, etc.).
However, I have always found the best way to search is to use google or better duckduckgo(1) and phrase the search like this:

"rust site:www.hobby-machinist.com"
(without the quotes)

doing that I get results like this:
upload_2017-7-30_8-32-23.png


If you have not heard of/tried electrolysis, you might look into it.
I used it again recently on a vice, and it worked splendidly:
http://hobby-machinist.com/threads/...4-double-swivel-bench-vise.58849/#post-484951

(1) duckduckgo gives the same results without google tracking everything you do!
it passes the search text directly to google, and gives back the same results, but it does not store your search history or sell it to advertisers.
https://duckduckgo.com/

-brino
 
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Jidis

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Do you guys have a preference on solutions for stuff which can't be soaked? I was attacked by a rust wave a few years back and still have some things which need to be cleaned up, but there's a bunch of stuff like my radial arm saw column, bar clamps,etc. which obviously can't be removed and dipped in anything. I'm thinking maybe a spray bottle of something (commercial or homebrewed). Evapo-Rust did well on most of the smaller parts, but the instructions didn't really sound like it was made for that.

Thanks!
 

brino

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there's a bunch of stuff like my radial arm saw column, bar clamps,etc. which obviously can't be removed and dipped in anything.
Jidis,
If the rust is fairly light then I use a scouring pad like a scotch-brite.
If it's heavier rust then I use a wire wheel, either on a bench grinder or even a cordless drill.

My drill press column got rusted but I got it with a scouring pad and now use this on my drill press column and table, the table saw surface, band-saw tables and even on my block planes, etc.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=40952&cat=1,230,64343,64350

I can usually find it at my local hardware store.

-brino
 

Jidis

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Thanks Brino!

I sort of hoped there was a lazy way. I've got an assortment of wheels and such, so I'll go ahead and see what I can do, and look into that GlideCote. I've been much better about oil coating things I've been cleaning up lately, putting camphor in all my tool drawers, and was running a dehumidifier until it cooled down outside, so I'm probably going to be safe from having it happen again, but I've still got some recovery to do.

Take Care
 

jbalp

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I read a lot rust removing threads here on the forum.. thought I'd throw in my two cents. home depot sells a concrete floor cleaner called prep & etch
12-13 bucks for gallon. it contains phosphoric acid. I mix it 5 parts water to 1 part. soak parts over night and the rust is gone. it will clean chrome nicely to,, do NOT use it for aluminum, or any kind of pot metal/white metal . I use this all the time when restoring motorcycles. great for gas tanks..

crap I had a typo and I didn't notice it for awhile. I missed the NOT .... I hope nobody tried this on aluminum

jbalp
 
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Jidis

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Inspired by Andre, I just did an old chuck too. I forgot to take a "before" picture, but stuck in a shot of the drill it came off of which should give you an idea. It wasn't as bad as his, but was a nice crusty bronze color. I must admit I cheated and did a bunch of the clean-up and sanding on a lathe, but the first overnight soak did great. Weird part is, it looked good after the initial de-rusting, and I cleaned it a bit and soaked it a second time to see if I could get any more. The second time, it came out with that weird charcoal gray look that Evapo-Rust sometimes gives. I had to sand and buff to get it back. I did add a tiny bit of Hydrogen Peroxide to rejuvenate it and a pinch of salt on the second run, but that's about the only difference.

It moves smooth as silk, and the threads and insides looked good, but unfortunately all the keys here are too big and the one which seems to be the right size still doesn't seat quite right. I'm pretty sure the issue was the same before I took it apart, and pictures of others online look as though the rear of the body protrudes from the shell by about the same amount as mine, so I'm figuring that's as far back as it goes, but it does seem as though the key would fit better if there were a bit more space between the holes and the rack ring part.

Chuck.jpg

Take Care

PS- jbalp's warning about the aluminum sounds like what I get from the muriatic acid I use for PCBs here. The reactions to Al can get pretty "colorful" sometimes. I did something with it once where it heated up and started bubbling so bad I had to run away from it. Fortunately, this was on top of a plastic trash can in a nice open area outside.
 

Bob Korves

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Any rust removing method that uses acid is not at all the same as Evapo-rust. Acids will remove good metal as well as rust, Evapo-rust will not. Sometimes that matters, sometimes it does not. If you do not want a frosted surface, use Evapo-rust. If you do not care, acids work OK. Properly used, electrolysis can also remove rust without removing good metal.
 

kev74

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For what its worth, I've been experimenting with using a peroxide salt mix for a rust bluing solution. If you leave steel in there too long, the solution will cause pitting in the metal.
 

kev74

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Here's a muzzle cap I did. It was polished to 1000 grit wet/dry before the peroxide/salt solution.

Message_1521329147303.jpg
 
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