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[4]

I'll just take this one part off...

January Project of the Month [3]
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David Pollard

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#1
Hi Everyone,
I just thought I'd look into the problem with the free play with my longitude slide wheel. (Atlas V42 10F)

I had about 1/4 turn of free play and it seemed like the little gears were just engaged by the end of the teeth.

After investigating how to get apron off I realised I needed to remove the lead screw.
I figured what have I got to loose so out it came and sure enough the apron came off after removing just the two Philips head screws on the top.

The amount of crap behind the apron was amazing but I managed to clean it up OK and at least I know what magic goes on behind there now.

Unfortunately I found a multitude of problems.

The Gear Case (10F-11) has been smashed and there is a fudge up of home made bits holding it together.
Strangely when I refitted it just the way it was most of the free play is now gone.

Unfortunately there is a bronze bevel gear with a missing tooth that is part of the cross slide power feed.
It is a bit hard to read my parts list but it looks like a 341-05p (not sure if that is a p or 9 on the end)
The cross feed was working but I think it just jumps the missing tooth by a hair.

Removing the lead screw from the feed reversing gear box meant that I needed to pull that apart as well before I could refit the lead screw.
I found a similar amount of crap hidden in there. I managed to clean that out as well but the Yoke (9-59) has also been smashed and a fudged up welded thing has taken it's place. The feed lever has a had a couple of new v notches carved in the case which I guess is due to the welded up yoke not being the correct size but the little pin doesn't hold the lever in place. It pops out of gear after a minute or two which will pretty much stop me from ever doing any screw cutting unless I figure out how to fix it. It appears that the little key in between the reversing gear and the lead screw can slide along the shaft and snag on the bevel gear which may be where I'm feeling some of the crunchiness. It is really hard to tell what is going on in that little reversing box and behind the apron once it is assembled.

Just to top it off while re-assembling the lead screw it appears that the two lock nuts on the opposite end have been stripped. They just spin around and never tighten or come off.

With the screw and gears all reassembled it is just a bit crunchy. I'd hoped it would be nice and smooth now that it is all clean. I removed the change gears from the end of the lathe leaving a large 128 tooth gear attached directly to the lead screw. I can spin it around but I'm really not happy with the way it feels.

I think I have kicked a hornets nest and am concerned if I'll be able to get it back into working shape now. :(

Any hints and advice appreciated.

Thanks
David
 

Walt

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#2
I don't think there is any one, quick answer.

The way I would approach this is,
How much of the repair work requires skills you have?
Can you purchase replacement parts?
Is the cost reasonable?
How much time do you want to spend repairing the lathe compared to using the lathe?

If the repairs are too expensive it's probably not within your means to replace it and sell the lathe as a project to someone else. But it might be helpful to think it through that way.

I got myself into a project lathe. The rotary phase converter cost me $700. Unless the remainder of the repairs are minimal, this is going to end up costing more than selling the lathe as is (not running) and applying the difference toward a new lathe. But then I wouldn't have a working Monarch 10EE. Or so I tell myself.

Walt
 

toag

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#3
I would bet that you could find parts that arent too expensive. or you might find a donor lathe and amke one good lathe out of 2 bad ones. I think you did the right thing by opening it up and finding out the problem. A tool that you can't use is useless.
 

Dranreb

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#4
Hi David, unfortunately it seems that you've got most of the common Atlas problems in one go, those parts do tend to suffer from chip damage, My first Atlas was the same..

Most parts can often be found on eBay if you are patient, but unless you're very lucky buying another cheap breaker lathe means that you just end up with more of the same damaged parts.

The lathe should be usable (no thread cutting) without the power feeds if you fit new lead screw end nuts.

The carriage traverse wheel is usually a bit floppy on a worn lathe but can work like that for ages, I made a crank handle to fit the LH end of the lead screw so it could be turned by hand for fine feeding until I got some spares organized.

Don't give up on it if the machine is otherwise good, there are plenty of Atlas owners on here to advise as you get it sorted..

Bernard
 

The Liberal Arts Garage

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#6
Just a thought..... Once as the world began , the answer was to file a suitable groove where the broken tooth was; file up a new one to fit the groove not too tightly,put in with JBWeld(clean, very clean) then adjust the tooth shape to smooth passage probably caught lump between teeth. BLJHB
 

David Pollard

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#7
Thanks for the encouragement!
Here is a couple of pics of how the apron looked before and after I cleaned it.
You can see the broken Gear Case Assembly and the fudge up job to fix it. I guess as that is kind of working I'll leave that repair until last.

I don't have pics of the other broken bits at the moment. The gear with the missing tooth in the bronze one on the right hand side. The missing tooth must be at the back. I hadn't noticed it at the time when I took the picture.

I live in Australia and "Out of Town" so it is a bit of an expense to ship anything from the US. It adds about $60-$100 to the shipping when buying stuff on eBay.

I like the old lathe and really only want to use it for fixing stuff around the farm. I have already used it to assist in fixing up an old Tractor Back Blade. Pictures also attached. The part I turned is the Tee shaped locking mechanism. The old locking mechanism was a hunk of angle iron held on with fencing wire. :)

I am a Fitter and Turner that took 30 years off to work in IT :) so I have the skills to make bits. However I don't have a Mill at the moment but I'm handy with a file!

Being in the country I can't get bar stock easily to make bits out of. I still haven't figured that one out yet. Some eBay sellers have crazy process on bar stock.

It took me ages to find this lathe being not to big to get in the box trailer and not to small to actually do useful work. (and not too far to drive to pick it up)
I think I'll stick with it and try and fix it up without spending a bomb on it.

Now I just got to talk the wife into me needing a milling machine with a dividing head.:)
She already knows that a lathe makes round things (mostly) Now I just need to explain about making flat or square things.

I sent an email to Clausing as I have heard here that they stock some parts. Didn't get a response so I'm not holding my breath.

I'll work at it and post again here if I get stuck.

Thanks
David

Apron-Before.jpg Apron-After.jpg IMG_0627.jpg IMG_0692.jpg IMG_0597.jpg
 

FarFar

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#9
There have ben a very clever fellow Australian named 12 bolts I Think,that improved a southend immensely.
He removed the leadscrew ridning mitre gear completely,and drive the rest of the geartrain with a small Electric engine.
Leadscrew is for threadcutting only.Feed rates transversale and longitudinal is controled by a potentiometer,like in A Real lathe like Schaublin or Hardinge.
I cannot find the link and cannot remember if it was here or there.Please help.It has some Nice pictures.
 
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David Pollard

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#10
I saw this on fleabay LINK, it may be what you need. Though I think is very over priced.

Terry
They look like most of the bits I need. The bevel gear I have with the tooth missing isn't there I don't think.

I have to figure out yet if it is my Lead Screw that is stripped on the tail stock end or if it is only the lock nuts. That probably needs solving first.

Thanks for finding this for me. It is a little over prices especially once I add delivery on to it assuming he is willing to do international shipping.
 

David Pollard

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#11
I figured out what at least one of the crunchy bits is. I found this picture of the little reversing gear online and realised that it is different to mine.
Mine has the key as a separate part where in the pic it is cast in.

My key can slide along the shaft a bit and engage with the bevel gear on either side.
I was wondering how this is supposed to work as it looked like an accident waiting to happen.
Close examination shows that someone has tried to solder it in place at some stage.

With the key loose it is also nearly impossible to assemble. So this explains a lot.

(Also one more piece I need to replace)

I'll be very proud of it if I get it back to nice working order again :)

David

ReversingGear.jpg
 

Privateer

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#12
You need this bit? DSCN0562[1].JPG
I have this one, its a spare. Its definitely not new, however it is in good working condition. If you're interested in it, we can haggle in PM's.

Terry

PS I only gave a slight once over with a rag, so its a bit oily yet.

DSCN0562[1].JPG
 
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iron man

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#13
Did someone make those brass bevel gears? all the ones I have seen are ZAMAK at any rate you could braze the missing tooth and hand dress it to work. As far as the stripped lock nuts on the lead screw that might be a blessing I have had and have seen those come loose and tighten up enough to strip gears just replace the nuts with a locking collar.
 

David Pollard

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#14
Hi Iron Man,

Here is a picture of the tailstock end of my lead screw.
Both of those nuts just spin around and it appears there is some sort or thrust washer next to them.
The Parts List describes them as "Cone Nuts" but no part number so I'm assuming they are standard 1/2" UNF lock nuts.
If I get those nuts off and loosen that screw in the thrust washer should the bearing / bracket come off the end of the lead screw?

As for the Bronze bevel gears, I was wondering about that myself. All the pictures I have seen look like they are made of steel or some kind of alloy.
I'm not sure what ZAMAC is but I'm guessing it is "Some kind of alloy" :)

The three bevel gears in the reversing mechanism are also made from bronze but the teeth are mostly intact on them.

I haven't done any brazing in a long time and don't have the equipment at the moment. I might have to see what I can find.

David

IMG_0703.jpg
 

Privateer

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#15
If I get those nuts off and loosen that screw in the thrust washer should the bearing / bracket come off the end of the lead screw?
Yes, it will come off at at that point, or you could just remove the two bolts holding the bearing to the bed, and remove the entire lead screw without taking the bearing off the screw. It will slide to the right, just remember to catch the gear in the F/R gear box as the lead screw clears it.

Terry
 

pdentrem

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#16
Yes those two nuts are 1/2" UNF otherwise known as 1/2" - 20 tpi. As Privateer noted, you can remove those 2 1/4" - 20 bolts that hold the rh leadscrew bracket to the bed and slide the whole unit to the right to clear the traversing gear box and the apron if they are still installed.
Pierre
 

iron man

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#17
Zamak is a alloy mixture it is a high grade of pot metal with better control of the contents it last a log time but as it age's the metals start to react with one another and it gets brittle and breaks down. If you get the nuts off and the threads are damaged like I said before a collar with a setscrew will work fine that is what i put on mine I dont really care for the nuts on there. Ray
 

David Pollard

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#18
Terry,
I have had those two bolts out of the lead screw bracket already when I had the apron off.
Now I'm more interested about fixing or replacing those two stripped nuts and couldn't tell if there was some secret to getting them off.

Iron Man,
when you say replace them nuts with a "collar with a setscrew" did you make a round cylinder to go over the end of the lead screw, drill and tap a hole in the side of it and clamp it down on the top of 1/2" thread?

I suppose I could just make a flat on the 1/2" lead screw thread for the set screw to land on.

I'm sure I'll come up with something.
 

aforsman

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#19
David,

I think the key would be to determine whether the nuts or the leadscrew threads are stripped. If it's the nuts, you can simply replace them. If it's the leadscrew threads, then I think you could use a setscrew collar as suggested and just bite the setscrew down in between the treads, with no flat required. Good luck.

Allen
 

pdentrem

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#20
If the threads on the leadscrew are buggered, you could also turn them off and make new threads like 7/16 20 or whatever works for you.
Pierre
 

wa5cab

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#21
David,

To answer an earlier implied question, a "cone nut" is one type of all-metal self-locking nut.

Robert D.
 

Yeti

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#22
David.

I also have a broken 10F-11 Gear Case Assembly. Price at Clausing's is $113.85 + Freight.
Try Jolene Olds, jolds@glausingc.com

I am also restoring a Ferguson Multi-Purpose Blade with a broken locking mechanism. DSC_0051.JPG
I hava a few brochures and a Parts list to E-mail if you like.

It's a small world. I live in Iceland in the North Atlantic. Far away with the same problems and tasks.

Atli

DSC_0051.JPG
 
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iron man

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#23
Terry,
I have had those two bolts out of the lead screw bracket already when I had the apron off.
Now I'm more interested about fixing or replacing those two stripped nuts and couldn't tell if there was some secret to getting them off.

Iron Man,
when you say replace them nuts with a "collar with a setscrew" did you make a round cylinder to go over the end of the lead screw, drill and tap a hole in the side of it and clamp it down on the top of 1/2" thread?

I suppose I could just make a flat on the 1/2" lead screw thread for the set screw to land on.

I'm sure I'll come up with something.
Yes that is what I did with mine the nuts are not a very good design you can run without them the lead screw is trapped in there its not going anywhere.
 

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#24

David Pollard

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#25
Hi Atli,
My Blade had a locking mechanism on the end of the boom with springs and linkages and it looked like it has been smashed and welded up a few times. I didn't feel like repeating someone else's mistakes. I pulled it apart as much as I could so it wasn't so heavy to work with. Then drilled a 1" hole sraight through the boom directly above the locking gear but on the forward side if the main pivot shaft. I then used a standard 1" tractor pin straight through the hole. I ended up filling the gear tooth shape on the end of the pin as they arn't hardened. This way it will be the weakest link and I'f I shear it off it shouldn't damage anything else. I can just replace it.

Good luck sorting yours out.
David
 

pdentrem

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#26
Just to add some information.

The bevel gears are standard in form. I used the Browning YSM12B18 5/8" gear to make a new 990-264 Mitre Gear. This is the gear that has the crossfeed drive gear as part of of it. It takes the rotation from the 341-051 Mitre gear ( Are the new versions steel from Clausings? The two new ones I had were. ) on the lead screw and transfers it to the gear on the crossfead gear 10F-33. I used the Browning gear and turned the exterior down a bit and had a new straight gear and openned the center up to make a press fit onto the bevel gear. Also inserted a oilite bushing and cut the end of the gear to properly fit the stud 10F-17. I still have a couple of the Browning gears on hand and have included a picture of how I received them from Browning. With some reverse engineering either one of the mitre gears can be made up using this YSM12B18 gear. Hopefully people how are far away from Clausings can find the equivelent gears locally if required.
Pierre

gear2.jpg gear1.jpg mitre-gear-page.jpg
 

iron man

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#27
Just to add some information.

The bevel gears are standard in form. I used the Browning YSM12B18 5/8" gear to make a new 990-264 Mitre Gear. This is the gear that has the crossfeed drive gear as part of of it. It takes the rotation from the 341-051 Mitre gear ( Are the new versions steel from Clausings? The two new ones I had were. ) on the lead screw and transfers it to the gear on the crossfead gear 10F-33. I used the Browning gear and turned the exterior down a bit and had a new straight gear and openned the center up to make a press fit onto the bevel gear. Also inserted a oilite bushing and cut the end of the gear to properly fit the stud 10F-17. I still have a couple of the Browning gears on hand and have included a picture of how I received them from Browning. With some reverse engineering either one of the mitre gears can be made up using this YSM12B18 gear. Hopefully people how are far away from Clausings can find the equivelent gears locally if required.
Pierre

Good info a better fix than original.. Ray
 

David Pollard

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#28
Hello Again,
I managed to fix the lead screw. I had to cut the nuts with a hacksaw 90% of the way through and then just bust them off with a big screwdriver.
No additional damage was made to the shaft. I notice there was an unused keyway on the shaft which would make adding a hand wheel here much easier.
I might do that at some later stage.

I turned the stripped lead screw thread off and sized it to 7/16" in case I decide I really need another thread here later on.
I put the bracket in my 4 Jaw chuck and faced off both of the ends that were quite scuffed up from lack of oil and dirt getting in there I guess.
I left the step on the shaft about .005" longer than the width of the bracket so that it can't bind up again. A bit of play won't hurt as the force will all way be against the shoulder of the shaft when cutting from right to left (Right Hand Threads). I will rarely ever need to cut left hand threads. Also thinking about it the cross feed would not produce a force in either direction as it is driven by a straight key.

I know it is a honking big grub screw but I don't have a lot of taps at the moment. I don't have any grub screws either but I think the home made slotted grub screw will blend right in. (Don't tell anyone it is M10)

So one down and three or four to do :)
David

David

- - - Updated - - -

Hi Pierre,
Thanks for the info on the bevel gears. It think it is actually the 341-051 on my machine that has the missing tooth. I need to pull it apart again to confirm.
I think the Key is almost completely worn away in any case.

I'm sure I'll find a solution, I'm just trying to minimise the cash burn rate :)

David

Before.jpg After1.jpg After2.jpg
 

pdentrem

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#29
Turning down the end of the leadscrew is the best way to fix that problem. Welding new metal would work too, but lots more work for no real advantage in the end.

Yes you are correct that it is 341-051 that you have the broken tooth. The nice thing is that both mitre gears can be repaired/replaced with this bevel gear and some work of course.
Pierre
 

David Pollard

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#30
Hi Guys,
I thought it was time I posted an update with the bits that I have fixed.
Next I addressed the cross feed gear with a missing tooth. I bought my self some braising rods and one of those Mapp gas torches. I heated up the gear to a bit more than a dull red and started to build up a new tooth. The torch I bought can only just melt the rod but I managed to build a nice blob where the tooth should be. I then dug out my trusty triangle file and started shaping the tooth.
I was surprised how hard the new tooth was, much harder that the bronze around it.

Check out the pictures I think it came out OK.
I reassembled everything and noted that it was still a bit crunchy when I spin the shaft. I went over all the teeth with a file and removed any bury bits. Also when the carriage was down the tail stock end the lead screw mysteriously tightened up. I discovered that if I loosened the bolts on the lead screw bracket the problem went away. I found if I shimmed out the bracket .020" this problem is also solved.

Next I turned to the reversing gears. I received the two parts I need, the selector gear from Terry above (Thanks!) and the selector arm I found on eBay. Once installed (more de-burring) every thing spins freely but the selector gear only just engages with either of the other two bevel gears. I noted that the shaft of the selector lever was quite loose in the hole of the gear casing. The front of the gear case was also slightly bent. After much thought and a big spanner I managed to straighten the case without snapping it. I then decided to drill out the hole in the case and with some more creative 4 jaw chucking turn down the diameter of the selector shaft. I then made a brass bearing with a light press fit onto the shaft and a nice fit in the new gear case hole. (See Attached)

It is all back together now and the engagement is much better but I still get it popping out of gear now and then. This may be because the bronze bevel gears are non original. The little spring loaded pin doesn't offer much resistance and there are multiple "V" groves cut into both lever positions none of which seem to be far enough away from the centre.

Stay tuned for more updates :)

David

IMG_0715.JPG IMG_0717.JPG IMG_0733.JPG
 
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