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NorseDave

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and I have no idea what I'm doing! Needless to say, there will be many inane questions and such to follow, as I have zero machining background. But it's a skill I've been interested in learning for a while now, so I'm looking forward to doing just that.

It's probably a strange route to take, buying a machine with no experience, but its worked out for me with welding, so hopefully this will follow a similar path. I considered getting a membership to one of the "maker spaces" somewhat near me, but for a 6 month membership, I could own a mill instead. I've also heard pretty mixed reviews on the skill levels of the folks that work there and are supposed to help you learn.

Anyway, I'll get started with some pics and then some initial questions. The mill was on Long Island, about 200 mi away from me. The mileage didn't really bother me, but having to drive through NYC w/ a trailer during the week is not my idea of fun. Fortunately, once I got there, loading was not a problem. Hallelujah!

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The next day, I had to resort to a somewhat lower tech, more physically intensive method to get it off the lift and into place. I'm quite happy I rented the lift deck trailer - made the whole process far less frightening.

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I ran one ratchet strap around the back of the mill and anchored it to the pair of rings at the end of the trailer. I kept another strap around the throat of the machine and anchored to the forward part of the trailer, which was still attached to the truck. I then gave the upper strap some slack, used the lower strap to slide it on the trailer until the upper strap was taut, and repeated the process, gradually inching it off the trailer. I got it onto some wood, then used some wedges and a prybar to slide the pipes underneath of it, eventually maneuvering it into its temporary spot in my shop. Honestly it was not nearly as bad or as puckering an affair as I expected. No complaints!

My knowledge of the mill itself came mostly from watching a few YouTube vids about the W-I stuff, as well as reading various forums. The guy I bought it from was closing down his father's business and he indicated that it had basically been used as a drill press for the last umpteen years. He didn't really know anything about it, and the guy that knew how to run it had been gone for almost a decade. It certainly needs a good cleaning, which I've just barely started on.

What I've figured out so far:
- Serial # 9746 I think (going from memory), 9x46 table.
- table, saddle, and knee all move through full range of motion. Could probably be a bit smoother, but not horrendous.
- motor runs quietly.
- quill goes down smoothly, a bit slow on the return once you let off it though.
- quill power feed works. This was interesting trying to figure out without any instructions, but I got it after a bit of head scratching and fiddling. Not sure if the mechanism that disengages it when it hits the stop works, I forgot to try that.
- table power feed partially works. Kind of. The feed part works, but the power part is missing! If I put it in the slowest feed rate, I can turn the gearbox shaft by hand, and see the table move.
- table surface is a bit rough with some drill holes. Ways look pretty good, just needed a bit of cleaning.
- has a Bijur (sp?) oil system installed.

Now on to the interesting stuff.

First, I'm not sure if it happened during moving, or if it was like that before, but the handle that releases the tension on the belts was FUBAR. Cracked in two places. It was somehow wedged against the machine such that it would run, but as soon as I moved it, it fell into 3 pieces. So, task #1 was to fab a new handle. After much cutting, bending, welding, and grinding, a new handle was put into service.

FullSizeRender.jpg

Next up, a bit of a puzzlement. The housing on the right side of the table, where the hand wheel, lead screw, etc. attach to the table, has been welded back together :eek: I have no idea what to make of this, other than it must have taken one heck of a hit. Only the one side shows any welding though.

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The usual pics of the table, ways, etc.

IMG_2499.JPG IMG_2501.JPG

The oil reservoir for the oil system looks like it came off a WWII-era submarine.

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Finally, I'll end with a question. This is under the table at the front. Is this the mechanism for adjusting the table? Is that crack supposed to be there? The other side looks pretty much the same, with a similar crack. It looks too even for it to be a mistake, but the welding on the table housing has me a little spooked.

IMG_2503.JPG

I'm looking forward to learning both this machine and how to use it and appreciate any and all input from those of you with far more experience than I!
 

brino

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Congratulations!
Getting a new machine home is always exciting.

I cannot speak about local maker-spaces......I think it's a great idea, but it _could_ be hit or miss depending on the people involved.
I'd suggest that you could use this forum and you-tube to learn much of the basics.

Good job on the equipment move. Slow and steady!

You're smart to be worried about that repair near the table crank........though It looks brazed, not welded.
That kind of thing always makes we wonder how it happened.....was the machine was tipped over/dropped during a previous move, or did something heavy run into it?
That fact that the table moves to it's limits in all three directions is great, it means no ways are broken and no lead-screws are bent.

Is that crack supposed to be there?
I am NOT familiar with that machine, but to me it looks like an adjustment to the gib.
I bet if you remove that set-screw/bolt you will see that the either the bolt or the hole is tapered such then when it's tightened in it expands the gib to adjust for wear.

Please keep us updated with your progress on cleaning and repairs.

-brino
 
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brino

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NorseDave

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Thanks for the help guys, this is just the beginning for sure!

I have looked at those two sites, and Rick Robison from Wells Index even emailed me a pdf of the brochure for the 645. Amazing customer service considering I was asking him about a ~50 year old mill, not talking about buying a current or even remotely recent one!

I was thinking that "crack" was probably for adjustment somehow, I will have to remove that set screw and have a look.

It has the B&S 9 (well, I assume it's 9) taper. Definitely not R8. Along with the mill I got a giant drilling vise (as seen in the one pic) that has about 1000 drill marks in it, (including one that's nearly halfway through the lead screw) and a bucket of "stuff". I emptied the bucket once home, and was delighted to find 5 BS9 collets, 1/8-5/8 in 1/8" steps. There were also 6 (!) drill chucks - 5 US-made Jacobs, and one Chinesium no-name. Also a few things that I frankly have no idea what they are. I took a pic of everything, but don't have it on this computer.
 

brino

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Dave,

My search for the manual has come up empty....mostly people looking for it.
Are you comfortable sharing the PDF manual?
If so, you could upload it to the "downloads" section here, or if you're unsure how, send it to me in a PM and I'll post it with a link in this thread.

If required, Daryl (aka. UglyDog) has some B&S #9 tooling available:
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/collet-identification-help-needed.62997/#post-519123

Post your pictures of "unknown objects" here.
Someone will ID them.

-brino
 

T. J.

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Congrats on the mill Dave! I have a 645 as well, about which I have an ongoing thread in this forum. I'll do my best to answer any questions I am able to.

The "crack" that you are concerned about is in fact the gib for the table ways. The set screw you can see locks the gib in place. To adjust the gib, you would first remove that screw. Then, there is another screw behind it which moves the gib in and out.

The gear housing on the right end of my table was broken/repaired as well. I suspect these injuries are due to a crash event. I would encourage you to disassemble that housing and inspect the gears, bearings, and the end of the feed shaft. Mine were pretty buggered up. You can see some details in my thread.

It sounds like you just need a motor for your table feed gear box. It takes a standard 1/4 HP motor.

Instruction manuals with assembly drawings are available from W-I. They are $50 if I remember correctly. It seems a little much for photocopies, but the drawings are indispensable.

And by the way, nice job on the tensioning handle!
 
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My Serial Number Reference Book says yours was born sometime in the year of 1963.
Your 645 is about three years older than mine. From your pictures everything pretty much matches up with mine.
The picture showing the underside of the table, looks like a crack just above the gib screw, it maybe. Insert a Allen wrench in the set screw and remove. Then, take the allen wrench and reach down in the gib and back out the second set screw to get the gib out. With the gib out of the way, you should be able to tell more if that is cracked or broken off. If it's not broken, don't mess with it, just leave it as is, it won't hurt anything.
The Bijur oil pump is probably the same one that they have been using since their beginnings. That oil pump I was told is the same one used the Packard Automobile. Have no clue if this is true or not. Anyways, the broken and repaired piece on the end of the table, Mines broke off, too. I carefully drilled ad tapped a couple of holes and bolted the broken piece back on. You can purchase a new manual from Well-Index for a few dollars. Some replacement parts are still available for purchase.

T.J beat me to it!
 

T. J.

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One thing I forgot to mention regarding your first post - the quill isn't supposed to retract on its own like a drill press. There is a spring inside the housing where the handle attaches that only functions to counterbalance the weight of the quill. In other words, the quill should stay put when you let go of the handle. If it doesn't, the spring can be adjusted.
 
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When you decide to unload another piece of machinery, place your strap as low to the bottom as you can. Where it is now, if it had got away from you going down that ramp, it would have flipped on it's back before you could blink an eye! Try to be safe. We don't like to hear about the one that got away. You can't beat that trailer, they are nice. Ken
 
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I see now what you are referring to. The end of the gib looks as it has been broken off. W-I did not finish the end of the gibs. What you are looking at is the "as cast" surface. Its fine. Mine are the same way. Ken
 

NorseDave

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Interesting that the end housing seems to be broken on everyone's machine. I guess i'll stop worrying about it.

TJ, I found your thread when I was researching the mill before I bought it, and have been following along for sure. I actually recounted your mill retrieval debacle to the guy I bought mine from, and he said "is that why you asked twice if I had a machine that could load it on a trailer?" Sure was! Strangely, on eBay the seller listed it as a Model 55, but it was clear in the pictures it was a 645, most notably the pic showing the mfr plate with "Model 645" on the top.

Anyway, thanks for the info on the gib adjustment. I will do a little YouTube hunting and start playing with that. I thought I could see when watching carefully from underneath that the table had a bit of a wavy motion as I cranked it along. I imagine it hasn't been adjusted in ... a decade at least.

Ken, thanks for the word of caution on unloading. I never really let it go "down" the ramp exactly, once the front started to show light I used some wedges to keep it basically level until it was clear. Then I used a pry bar to gradually pull the wedges and get it on the pipes, so it was never more than a few degrees off of upright. But duly noted. I suppose the best approach would be a pair of straps - one low as you suggested, and one high where I have it.
 

NorseDave

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I've had some time over the last few days to spend a little more time w/ the 645. First off was, is, and shall be for a while - cleaning. I mean, at least below the saddle, this thing clearly hasn't seen a rag since, well, possibly when it was made. Step one was a scraper. I'd say that's a good 1/16" thick layer of yuck.

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After some scraping, shop vac'ing, and Goof-Off'ing (not to be confused with goofing off), I got it a bit more presentable.

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Obviously not done, but ran out of paper towels!

After that, I started poking around a bit more. The head nod seems to work swell - I took it over to 15-20* in each direction and it was no problem. The head tilt was great in one direction, but seemed a bit wonky in the other. I'll have to play with that a bit more.

Which brings up my next question - how do you adjust the ram travel fore/aft and the ram rotation about the turret? The top looks like this:

IMG_2555.JPG

I assumed I needed to loosen the two nuts near the front and back, and then twist the shaft that sticks out towards the back of the pic. But with the two nuts loose, the shaft didn't want to turn. I loosened that 3rd nut (under the power cable in the pic) but that didn't make any difference, and the stud it was on seemed to turn as well. I was also expecting to find a pair of corresponding nuts on the other side of the ram, but they weren't there. I can see the chain on the underside of the ram, so I know there's something to turn to move it in/out.

To rotate the ram on the turret I assume I need to loosen all 4 bolts on the underside of the top of the turret (you can see the indent for one in the above pic), but then is rotating a manual operation? Or is that the shaft I see towards the back in the above pic?

Here is the collection of stuff that came with the mill (not including a heavy duty but very beat up drill vise).

IMG_2524.JPG

So there's a bunch of drill chucks, more chuck keys than I'll ever use in a lifetime, a set of collets (1/8-5/8 in 1/8 inc), a couple of T-nuts that were holding the vise, and then the stuff on the right. Okay, the one is for mounting a chuck into a Morse taper, but the two on the far right I'm clueless on. The 2nd from right appears to be just a big as f*** drill bit for boring, or maybe it's for threading said enormous holes? Really no idea, but I don't see me using that. What is it mounted in though? And then the thing on the far right, no idea. I can turn the lower "bowl" part maybe 45* separate from the top part, but that's it. Doesn't obviously come apart, or loosen it's grip on anything.

Finally, is a drawbar really just as simple as a threaded rod? I'm reasonably certain this particular one was not stock! The dark part directly under the nut is threaded, is that what the real drawbar is supposed to thread to?

IMG_2523.JPG
 
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First, the ram not moving in or out. There should be four studs with nuts clamping the ram to the column. I only see three and a hole where there should be a fourth bolt. It's no big deal, should work fine with just three bolts. Next clean up the dovetails the best you can on the ram and rub oil on the dovetails and under neath too by hand. Loosen the nuts and back off about two turns. Next, get you a 4 x 4 block about 12" and a 12 lb. sledge. This is where you need a third hand to hold the block. Give the ram a few hits on the sides. This should break it loose where it will slide. Next, give it a couple hits on each end and see if it moves. If it does, put a wrench on the square shaft about midways down the base of the ram and crank it in and out. Run it all the way it will go from one direction, clean the dovetails and oil. Crank it to the other end and do the same.
 
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I see two problems with the drawbar, chop it off to where it only sticks out about 2 to 3". Next, it is missing the backup nut that screws onto the spindle. The true drawbar that originally came with that mill had a shoulder that would be trapped under this nut. This would aid in getting the collets loose from the spindle.
Those are Brown & Sharpe style collets your mill uses. Don't over tighten them! If you do, they will be a bear to get loose.
 

T. J.

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For the ram - do what Ken said. Be careful, I broke the shaft on mine by trying to turn it with a big wrench without getting it broke free first!

To rotate the turret - loosen the four bolts, then rotate it by hand.
 

brino

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As for these:
1508377653114.png

The left one might be a large reamer or milling bit, but the end looks broken off.
Also, cannot tell what it's mounted in.

The right one might be either:
1) a tapping head like these: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=procunier+tapping+head&t=hb&iax=images&ia=images
2) or a high-speed/low-torque to low speed/high torque converter....basically a planetary gear system in a housing....like this old Versamatic: http://collectiblehardware-tools.com/products/versamatic-drill-speed, but a drill-press version.....

If it was a tapping head, I'd expect it to have a threaded blind hole on the outside for a bar that rests against the drill-press/mill column to keep the housing from rotating during use. Also, it should have a little 4-jaw collet system for grabbing taps.

Better pictures would help for sure.

-brino
 
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The service manual I have, shows a fairly clear picture of the retainer nut p/n 1133. There's also a washer p/n 1482 that is used. I suggest using a brass or aluminum bronze washer, not 660 bronze. This will help making up and breaking out things. On mine, the end of the spindle was damaged, been hit on too many times and the threads damaged. The nut was missing as well as the draw bar, like on yours. I machined the remaining threads completely off, beveled the inside edge with a healthy bevel. Made a spacer that registered on the bevel and face of spindle, then made a brass thrust washer to ride between the bushing and the nut. Made a draw bar from a piece of drill rod, you can use just about anything you want as long as it is good straight material. Any cold rolled bar material will work.
 

NorseDave

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A brief update from today. I've been shooting some PBlaster on the ram ways for the last few days in hopes that will help free up the ram. No luck yet, but I just re-read Ken's suggestion and realized I haven't hit it from the side. I will have to give that a try.

In more exciting news, I actually ran it and made holes with it today! I have some stuff that I make that requires putting ~2" holes in 1/8" steel tubing. My current drill press (Powermatic 1150) only goes down to about 450rpm, which is way too fast for that size hole saw. So I thought I may as well see how the 645 does on that job on a piece of scrap tubing. And the answer is, wonderfully! Far less drama than doing it w/ the drill press. I have it running at the 145rpm setting, used the power downfeed, and it just plain worked with no fuss whatsoever. Also gave me a much nicer finish on both the top and underside of the tubing. So I'm pretty pleased with that.

I did encounter one puzzler that I'm sure someone here can shed some light on. I also tried just a plain twist drill - about 3/8", don't remember exactly - and the power downfeed kicked out way before it had hit the vertical stop that is supposed to kick it out. I think it was probably right around when the full diameter of the drill got into the metal. I recall someone mentioning in another thread there is an adjustment for the downfeed clutch, is that what I need here? Possibly related, are these little shims supposed to be like this?

IMG_2564.JPG
 

T. J.

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Those 'shims' act as a spring to keep the clutch engaged. You can adjust the tension by turning the nut underneath them. It has a set screw that may have come out and allowed it to loosen. When I get home this evening, I'll take a pic of the clutch adjustment instructions from my manual.
 

T. J.

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I've had another couple of thoughts.

1) Was the clutch slipping, or did the clutch handle actually trip? If it tripped, the problem may not be in how it is adjusted. One possibility is a broken spring in the clutch latch. Does the clutch engage and disengage crisply, or does it take some fiddling?

2) This is unrelated to your present problem, but have you checked the oil in the spindle feed gearbox? (The sight glass on the side). The early 645's like yours and mine had oil in the upper half of the gear box, while the later ones were packed with grease.
 

NorseDave

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TJ - As near as I could tell, the clutch was not slipping. It just tripped on the 3/8" drill bit, but not on the 2" hole saw. The only fiddling I have to do is to actually get the feed to engage. It's not that the yellow handle above is hard to push in, but it's sort of a balancing act between keeping it pushed in and turning that L-shaped lever to lock it. I just assumed that's normal - I'm already better at it now than I was last week! But it disengages quickly and without drama.

I have not checked the oil levels - I've looked at the sight glasses, but they are so yellowed / dirty / whatever that they're not much good at the moment. At some point I need to at least pull the sight glasses and clean them up so they're actually functional.

EZ - no argument there, it's on the list. My understanding is it's less of a manual and more of an exploded parts diagram though. No?
 

T. J.

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Here's the actual clutch adjustment instructions from the manual. The instructions for adjusting the quill counterbalance spring are there too.

When engaging the clutch, it should latch by itself without having to mess with the trip lever. The fact that you're having to fiddle with the lever makes me suspicious that the spring inside is either broken or missing. Take the latch housing off and have a look. There should be a crescent shaped leaf spring behind the square shaft that pushes it out (toward you if you're standing in front of the machine).

If it's indeed missing, it should be fairly inexpensive from W-I. Alternatively, it probably wouldn't be hard to make one if you had some of the right spring steel stock laying around.

IMG_0248.JPG
 
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A brief update from today. I've been shooting some PBlaster on the ram ways for the last few days in hopes that will help free up the ram. No luck yet, but I just re-read Ken's suggestion and realized I haven't hit it from the side. I will have to give that a try......................
I doubt PB Blaster is going to break that loose, don't hurt to try. Another thing to do is at the top of the dovetail is fill it with some good oil like a ISO 46 grade hydraulic oil, from end to end on both dovetails. Let it soak a few days with the bolts loose. Every other day add some more oil. Do this for a couple of weeks. This give it a chance to soak into the dovetail. No promise it will get all the way to the bottom, some oil will penetrate down. At the end of two weeks, try to crank it first, don't force it! If it don't move then hit the sides with a 4 x 4 and sledge. If it still don't move soak more oil on the dovetail. Rather than using PB Blaster, try some Liquid Wrench penetrating oil. Might try that every other day along with oil treatment. It'll eventually break loose.
 

brino

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+1 on what Ken said above but with the little tweak of a "homemade" penetrating oil of 50% acetone and 50% Automatic Transmission Fluid (aka ATF). This stuff is so thin it wicks in almost anywhere and leaves the oil behind. I'd swear it migrates uphill!
-brino
 
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