Here's the ding on that countershaft pulley I couldn't identify. The countershaft spindle has taken some abuse. The somewhere along the line, previous owners/operators have converted oiling holes into set screws for some of the pulleys and gears.
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Just started reconditioning a pretty decent 101.07301 have some questions for the experienced!
- Thread starter makeparts
- Start date
I was poking around downloads...the repairs document that lists the bearings for this machine as <I think>:
For all Atlas 612 & 618 and Craftsman 101.21400 lathes:
M6-81B Cone = 07100
M6-81B Cup = 07196
M6-82B Cone = 07079
M6-82B Cup = 07196
All listed on the Clausing drawing as Class 2
since I have a single bearing spindle, would I choose the M6-82B Cup, or Cone, bearing?
is it worth going to an ABEC 3 vs. the 2?
For all Atlas 612 & 618 and Craftsman 101.21400 lathes:
M6-81B Cone = 07100
M6-81B Cup = 07196
M6-82B Cone = 07079
M6-82B Cup = 07196
All listed on the Clausing drawing as Class 2
since I have a single bearing spindle, would I choose the M6-82B Cup, or Cone, bearing?
is it worth going to an ABEC 3 vs. the 2?
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- Dec 25, 2011
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First thing that I need to caution you about is that the set screw removed from the spindle cone pulley is an oil plug, not a set screw. There is a discussion of this problem up in the Sticky area, although as written it seems to apply to the 10" and 12". But it applies equally to both versions of the 6". Do not under any circumstances force it through until it touches or locks to the spindle. If you do, first time that you put it into back gear you will probably ruin the spindle.
Second, nothing on the repairs document that you quoted applies to your lathe. Again, your lathe has sleeve bearings. The three models listed all have tapered roller bearings and as far as the spindle is concerned have nothing to do with your machine. The reason that I suggested that you download the 1950 618 parts manual (or if they are uploaded, maybe the 1945 one) is that some of it does apply to your machine. But not the spindle, spindle bearings or headstock casting.
As an aside, although none of it has anything to do with your sleeve bearing machine, ABEC grades have nothing to do with any tapered roller bearing. They apply to ball bearings and some other types. The applicable standards and classes for tapered roller bearings are promulgated by ABMA and ANSI. And the numbers for one standard are mostly the reverse for the other. I increasing order of "goodness", the ABMA Classes run 4. 2. 3. 0 and 00.
Back to your photographs, The small 2-step pulley M6-428 is the early 1/2" bore pulley. If it fits your motor, use it. The later manuals and parts lists will show M6-429, which is the same pulley except with a 5/8" bore.
Second, nothing on the repairs document that you quoted applies to your lathe. Again, your lathe has sleeve bearings. The three models listed all have tapered roller bearings and as far as the spindle is concerned have nothing to do with your machine. The reason that I suggested that you download the 1950 618 parts manual (or if they are uploaded, maybe the 1945 one) is that some of it does apply to your machine. But not the spindle, spindle bearings or headstock casting.
As an aside, although none of it has anything to do with your sleeve bearing machine, ABEC grades have nothing to do with any tapered roller bearing. They apply to ball bearings and some other types. The applicable standards and classes for tapered roller bearings are promulgated by ABMA and ANSI. And the numbers for one standard are mostly the reverse for the other. I increasing order of "goodness", the ABMA Classes run 4. 2. 3. 0 and 00.
Back to your photographs, The small 2-step pulley M6-428 is the early 1/2" bore pulley. If it fits your motor, use it. The later manuals and parts lists will show M6-429, which is the same pulley except with a 5/8" bore.
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I read that the other day, so yes it concerned me. So if I understand correctly, the step pulley is not "fastened", per se, but just uses the woodruff key and the bushings for the shaft fit? and the set screw is really to make an "oil resovoir", by capping off the hole once oil is introduced into it? or do I just oil it, and put the set screw aside?
Im a little confused - as you see from the pictures, I pulled a bearing (it's a Nice 5774, which I think is a plain ball thrust bearing) off the spindle (along with the 2 sleeve bearings that are still in the castings), so I do understand it's a single ball bearing 2 sleeve bearing lathe. Am I wrong about the Nice 5774 - is it a tapered roller, or a hybrid thrust-radial type ball bearing? I took that bearing to a local Motion Industries location to find me a replacement - the rep I was working with admitted he wasn't a bearing expert, but he thought it was a ball thrust bearing, as well. They hadn't found anything as of end of the day today, but to be fair, Im a low volume/low spend type of customer, so I don't expect lightning fast service. But they have been pretty good to me thus far.
I don't see dates on the pdf's, so Im sorry I don't know how to identify the year of manual publication.
Am I correct thinking you are referring to the manual that has the "Picture" (not a blow up diagram) of all the parts, listing a single thrust ball bearing in the headstock assembly as S10F-91? (filename "Craftsman Lathe 6 101-07301.pdf")?
I also see another pdf that has a single ball thrust bearing listed below the picture as item L2-20 (file named "Craftsman Lathe 6 101-07301 1944-11.pdf".
I promise you I am trying to do all the legwork, and not expecting to be hand fed here!
Good info - Im not a bearing expert, so the more data the better - I appreciate that! Did you mean ABMA ratings runs 4 - 3 - 2 - 0 - 00, in order of "better" bearings? I see 4.2.3.0 and 00 in your post
I think that pulley M6-428 came of the outside end of the countershaft assembly, not the motor...
you were correct/I was wrong
that 428 pulley DID come off the motor my bad
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- Dec 25, 2011
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The correct order of the ABMA classes is 4, 2, 3, 0, 00 as I wrote it. I have no idea why but that's the way that it is. #3 is better than #2 but #4 is worse. Timken claims not to make Class 4, which I take to mean that they scrap them instead of selling them. Or maybe they just sell them to the Chinese who sell them cheap under some other brand.
On the manuals, most of the early ones have one or two large photographs or drawings of most of the parts spread out loose on a table with most parts having the part number written beside them. Plus a parts list showing part number, description, sometimes price, and sometimes saying how many are required if greater than 1.
You are 2/3 correct about the dates in the file names of the three 101.07301 manuals that I have put into Downloads. When you have gotten down to the Craftsman Lathe Manuals folder, near the top of the screen click on Sort By Title. Download the top three PDF's. The top one does have the date in the title. The second and third don't. The top one is from November, 1944 and the title ends in 1944-11. The date following most titles is the date that the file was uploaded. The first file has the 101.07301 manual plus some other sheets like the one showing how to set the change gear tooth clearance. In the back, it has the illustrated parts list style manual on the 101.21400, which is the Craftsman copy of the Atlas 618, both of which have Timken bearings. But most of the lathe is the same as the 101.07301 and you can see pretty much where everything goes. If in doubt about a part number, check it in one of the other two. I've forgotten why I put both of them in Downloads, but I must have had a reason. Also, a few parts and/or part numbers have changed since 1944 which is the main reason that I said to download all three. For example, the motor pulley part number changed from the 1/2" bore M6-428 to the 5/8" bore M6-429.
Note that all of the titles have a hyphen between 101 and the rest of the model number instead of a period. This is because some computer operating systems reserve the period as the character between the file name and the extension. My system is pretty current and will tolerate periods earlier in a file name. But some of my files date back to the late 1980's and MSDOS. So I play it safe. Also, I didn't want to have to remember to edit every Title after uploading the file.
On the manuals, most of the early ones have one or two large photographs or drawings of most of the parts spread out loose on a table with most parts having the part number written beside them. Plus a parts list showing part number, description, sometimes price, and sometimes saying how many are required if greater than 1.
You are 2/3 correct about the dates in the file names of the three 101.07301 manuals that I have put into Downloads. When you have gotten down to the Craftsman Lathe Manuals folder, near the top of the screen click on Sort By Title. Download the top three PDF's. The top one does have the date in the title. The second and third don't. The top one is from November, 1944 and the title ends in 1944-11. The date following most titles is the date that the file was uploaded. The first file has the 101.07301 manual plus some other sheets like the one showing how to set the change gear tooth clearance. In the back, it has the illustrated parts list style manual on the 101.21400, which is the Craftsman copy of the Atlas 618, both of which have Timken bearings. But most of the lathe is the same as the 101.07301 and you can see pretty much where everything goes. If in doubt about a part number, check it in one of the other two. I've forgotten why I put both of them in Downloads, but I must have had a reason.
Also, a few parts and/or part numbers have changed since 1944 which is the main reason that I said to download all three. For example, the motor pulley part number changed from the 1/2" bore M6-428 to the 5/8" bore M6-429.Note that all of the titles have a hyphen between 101 and the rest of the model number instead of a period. This is because some computer operating systems reserve the period as the character between the file name and the extension. My system is pretty current and will tolerate periods earlier in a file name. But some of my files date back to the late 1980's and MSDOS. So I play it safe. Also, I didn't want to have to remember to edit every Title after uploading the file.
Did some research this am.
All the older Atlas manuals list the thrust bearing as S10F-91, from what I could find. I spoke to Tom, a tech. at Clausing, and he found they had 1 of these bearings left in inventory, and went to the warehouse and examined it:
STAMPED on the outer race: INA D-5
O.D. 1.465
I.D .750 TAPER SIDE
I.D. .780 FLAT SIDE
W .560
It looks different than the Nice, but that may or may not be an issue. He also sent a picture, that I've included in this post.
I also spoke to a CS rep. Madge at RBC - she engaged with the
NICE engineering folks (Nice is a part of RBC now) and responded with this:
******
Good morning: per our NICE engineering group, this bearing was created in 1936.
We do not produce any longer and do not have a replacement.
He suggested you try either INA are Aetna.
Also, an original print is attached
*******
I've attached a copy of the 1936 Nice bearing drawing.
the S10F-91 Clausing has on hand matches the old Nice 5774 fairly well, regarding inner race taper, except for diameter (~.0275 difference), which I don't think is an issue (am I correct here?), and the width - it's quite a bit wider than the Nice bearing. See picture attached. (and a pic earlier in the thread for the Nice 5774 bearing)
per drawing Nice 5774 width: =27/64" = .421875" -> .422"
per Clausing inspection INA D-5 width: = .560"
thats a .138" difference (9/64")
is there enough play in the spindle to allow that?
All the older Atlas manuals list the thrust bearing as S10F-91, from what I could find. I spoke to Tom, a tech. at Clausing, and he found they had 1 of these bearings left in inventory, and went to the warehouse and examined it:
STAMPED on the outer race: INA D-5
O.D. 1.465
I.D .750 TAPER SIDE
I.D. .780 FLAT SIDE
W .560
It looks different than the Nice, but that may or may not be an issue. He also sent a picture, that I've included in this post.
I also spoke to a CS rep. Madge at RBC - she engaged with the
NICE engineering folks (Nice is a part of RBC now) and responded with this:
******
Good morning: per our NICE engineering group, this bearing was created in 1936.
We do not produce any longer and do not have a replacement.
He suggested you try either INA are Aetna.
Also, an original print is attached
*******
I've attached a copy of the 1936 Nice bearing drawing.
the S10F-91 Clausing has on hand matches the old Nice 5774 fairly well, regarding inner race taper, except for diameter (~.0275 difference), which I don't think is an issue (am I correct here?), and the width - it's quite a bit wider than the Nice bearing. See picture attached. (and a pic earlier in the thread for the Nice 5774 bearing)
per drawing Nice 5774 width: =27/64" = .421875" -> .422"
per Clausing inspection INA D-5 width: = .560"
thats a .138" difference (9/64")
is there enough play in the spindle to allow that?
Attachments
also, have some more info on the bushing bearings, if it doesn't exist anywhere in the archives:
L2-14 Spindle bushing left
bronze
$5.87 (Clausing price, as of 13Dec.19)
Dimensions from drawing document within Clausing
OD .878" - .877"
ID .751" - .752"
W 1.250"
L9-14 Spindle bushing right
bronze
$3.82 (Clausing price, as of 13Dec.19)
Dimensions from Clausing Tech rep. going and measuring inventory items
OD 1.130"
ID 1.000"
W 1.250"
L2-14 Spindle bushing left
bronze
$5.87 (Clausing price, as of 13Dec.19)
Dimensions from drawing document within Clausing
OD .878" - .877"
ID .751" - .752"
W 1.250"
L9-14 Spindle bushing right
bronze
$3.82 (Clausing price, as of 13Dec.19)
Dimensions from Clausing Tech rep. going and measuring inventory items
OD 1.130"
ID 1.000"
W 1.250"
Have had progress since my last post
- de-rusted just about everything that needed it. I'm done, except maybe a 2nd light de-rusting for some collars/other hardware-really not much left to do, here....evapo-rust works friggin' miracles!
-still need to do degrease the headstock/ways/feet, and give the ways some light love - it looks really good, tho.
The lathe in surprisingly good condition, and quite complete, given it was basically purchased from the PO as parts in bags, except for the headstock. The bags as provided did not 100% match assemblies, so I will have to figure out what goes where. I've had my hands on just about every part, and here's what I have come up with, for a replacement list, pre re-assembly...(figger I may as well obtain/replace this stuff since I'm doing a full re-assembly). I might add some collars and other small hardware as I go, but at this point I think the below list is good for the re-assembly
Many thanks to wa5cab for the guidance and clarification provided to get me to this point!.
Compound Rest Assembly
NEEDED (Don't see them anywhere)
1) QTY 2: M6-309, Compound Lock Plunger (the 2 angled set screws press these items against the Compound rest). The latest price list names this part number as "Pins".
Anyone have any idea what these are made of? what the specs are?
Headstock Assembly
The right spindle bushing bearing is a bit scored, from PO's, but I'm going to replace all the bearings since I'm in here...
GETTING THESE JUST BECAUSE
1) QTY 1: L2-14, Spindle Bushing, Left
2) QTY 1: L9-14, Spindle Bushing, Right
3) QTY 1: S10F-91 Ball Thrust Bearing
The spindle has been scored a little (see pics above) but Im going to try and file/buff that stuff out and run it, see how it performs before I go any farther down that path.
As I stated in a previous post, the cone pulley has a chip in the smallest pulley sheave (? is that what you call the wall of the pulley?), and the motor pulley M6-428 also has a chip in the smaller pulley sheave. Also going to try and run these, before considering replacement.
Its missing 2 of the bakelite knobs, but I'll probably just make or mold something - that's pretty far down the list.
NOT SURE
1) My headstock only had 1 back gear washer as put together, but the older manuals seem to show more than that...not sure. maybe I'll get some and see how/what they fit...
2) The back gear shaft is scored, so I'll see if I can file that out...interestingly enough, I found a complete 2nd used back gear shaft sub-assembly, so I think a PO was perhaps thinking this needs to be replaced, and never got to it. Except for the scoring on the back gear shaft, the rest of this sub-assembly is in very good shape. (have not looked at the 2nd shaft yet)
3) I was wondering about the cone belt - this looks like a 1/4" belt (I read somewhere I think it's a z-belt?). I have some belts that came with the machine (2 that look like originals, different lengths, and 1 possible replacement, but it looks like a 1/2" belt, so it appears to me to be incorrect).
I have what appears to be the original as supplied counter shaft assembly, so If I use the recommended mounting specs, I'll have to figure out which belt...
What's the best way to determine belt size/type/length - do they make those adjustable belts in 1/4"? I'm not very knowledgeable regarding pulley/belt power transmission, so any advice here would be terrific.
I'll post some pictures in the next few days...the paint isn't perfect, but I love the patina, so I'm going to leave the aesthetics as is...I think it looks great as is!
- de-rusted just about everything that needed it. I'm done, except maybe a 2nd light de-rusting for some collars/other hardware-really not much left to do, here....evapo-rust works friggin' miracles!
-still need to do degrease the headstock/ways/feet, and give the ways some light love - it looks really good, tho.
The lathe in surprisingly good condition, and quite complete, given it was basically purchased from the PO as parts in bags, except for the headstock. The bags as provided did not 100% match assemblies, so I will have to figure out what goes where
. I've had my hands on just about every part, and here's what I have come up with, for a replacement list, pre re-assembly...(figger I may as well obtain/replace this stuff since I'm doing a full re-assembly). I might add some collars and other small hardware as I go, but at this point I think the below list is good for the re-assemblyMany thanks to wa5cab for the guidance and clarification provided to get me to this point!.
Compound Rest Assembly
NEEDED (Don't see them anywhere)
1) QTY 2: M6-309, Compound Lock Plunger (the 2 angled set screws press these items against the Compound rest). The latest price list names this part number as "Pins".
Anyone have any idea what these are made of? what the specs are?
Headstock Assembly
The right spindle bushing bearing is a bit scored, from PO's, but I'm going to replace all the bearings since I'm in here...
GETTING THESE JUST BECAUSE
1) QTY 1: L2-14, Spindle Bushing, Left
2) QTY 1: L9-14, Spindle Bushing, Right
3) QTY 1: S10F-91 Ball Thrust Bearing
The spindle has been scored a little (see pics above) but Im going to try and file/buff that stuff out and run it, see how it performs before I go any farther down that path.
As I stated in a previous post, the cone pulley has a chip in the smallest pulley sheave (? is that what you call the wall of the pulley?), and the motor pulley M6-428 also has a chip in the smaller pulley sheave. Also going to try and run these, before considering replacement.
Its missing 2 of the bakelite knobs, but I'll probably just make or mold something - that's pretty far down the list.
NOT SURE
1) My headstock only had 1 back gear washer as put together, but the older manuals seem to show more than that...not sure. maybe I'll get some and see how/what they fit...
2) The back gear shaft is scored, so I'll see if I can file that out...interestingly enough, I found a complete 2nd used back gear shaft sub-assembly, so I think a PO was perhaps thinking this needs to be replaced, and never got to it. Except for the scoring on the back gear shaft, the rest of this sub-assembly is in very good shape. (have not looked at the 2nd shaft yet)
3) I was wondering about the cone belt - this looks like a 1/4" belt (I read somewhere I think it's a z-belt?). I have some belts that came with the machine (2 that look like originals, different lengths, and 1 possible replacement, but it looks like a 1/2" belt, so it appears to me to be incorrect).
I have what appears to be the original as supplied counter shaft assembly, so If I use the recommended mounting specs, I'll have to figure out which belt...
What's the best way to determine belt size/type/length - do they make those adjustable belts in 1/4"? I'm not very knowledgeable regarding pulley/belt power transmission, so any advice here would be terrific.
I'll post some pictures in the next few days...the paint isn't perfect, but I love the patina, so I'm going to leave the aesthetics as is...I think it looks great as is!