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Lagunmatic CNC machine why not!

jeepguy88

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Just picked up myself a nice winter project. A Lagunmatic.
I have 0 CNC experience. So this will be a good challenge.
Currently has Fagor 8010m controller. Doesnt really want to turn on. I plan on upgrading to PC anyway. I kept my old gaming computer around for just such a project.
The lagun has dc brushed servo motors currently on X,Y,Z and they all work. When I powered up the machine, they all worked. So thats a plus. Maybe the Fagor controller didnt like running off a RPC?. There is no manual with this, and no labels to what input for what the machine needs to be wired to. Machine is overall in great shape, just needs a super bath from siting in the corner for so many years neglected.

I have no idea what I need to run this off my pc :cool:. Ive only seen a handful of youtube and reading around here. I need a breakout board? some drive controlers? Mach4 or Linuxcnc, thats it? Seems pretty simple compaired to trying to figure out whats wrong with the Fagor controller. Id say Im ok when it comes to building computers but, trouble shooting old circut boards or monitors doesnt seem like fun. Not to mention that I could probably figure out Mach4 or LinuxCNC software easier than learing the Fagor Controller. Not to mention the fagor controller is about the same size of the mill! lol It would be nice just have have a small computer and monitor mounted to the side.

My other mill is a full size Grizzly that was converted to cnc, that was non operational. It was advised that I would be better off making it a manual mill instead of messing around trying to figure out all the cnc controls. I kinda regretted that, but now I have a legit CNC that just needs a little help. I have stepper motors (I think) from the Grizzly machine somewhere, if those are better than the dc servo motors? I dont know the size of them, but I'll go find them and look. I dont know the size of motors needed to power a full size mill either.
Ill post some pics when I can.
Any input on breakout boards or drivecontorllers and software is much appreciated.
 

matthewsx

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Sounds like a neat project, post some pictures so we can see what you're talking about.

I would be inclined to keep as much as possible from the existing set-up, sticking with the existing servos and their controllers will save a ton of money if you can use both.

Here's someone who updated a 3516-SX with LinuxCNC.

https://forum.linuxcnc.org/30-cnc-machines/31621-lagunmatic-3516-sx-retrofit?start=0

I'm sure the experts will chime in soon but I'm using LinuxCNC with a cheap 5-axis controller and steppers for my project but will be eventually running a Mesa Electronics 7i96 control board.

Cheers,

John
 

Eddyde

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Sounds like a great project. I'm no expert but I think would be entirely possible upgrade the controller. Please post pictures of your progress.
 

jeepguy88

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Hope I added the photos correctly.
Barely cleared the garage door :)
So far my only progress has been unloading and a tiny bit of cleaning . I've got a 6" step up to clear going into the garage. I rented a tilt deck trailer and it has a very slight decline to the garage floor. I put a pipe to roll on and move it with a large pry bar. Pretty easy.
 

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jeepguy88

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So far, the only thing that seems to be missing is the pump for the self oiler, the lines are still there, and its missing a draw bar. It takes 40taper tooling, I think its ntsb. I can probably make a drawbar
 

matthewsx

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She’s a beauty.
I bet all the smarts are in that control box. I’d be tempted to try and get that working, it’s conversational right?

john
 

JimDawson

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Ooooooh, what a fun project. :) As said above using the existing servos & drives is not out of the question, but is a bit more complex than using newer hardware. Those look like Servo Dynamics servo drives, maybe you can find a data plate on them. If they are, I have the documentation for them. 750 watt servos would run the machine just fine, that's about what the rating is on the existing motors. On that machine I would not use steppers, no point in dumbing down a nice machine. Your RCP should run the control, but without taking some voltage measurements it's a little hard to make a good guess.

Pretty sure the control, including the servo drives, is single phase and quite possibly will run on 120V. But need more information to figure that out. Clearer pictures inside the main power cabinet would tell a lot. Looks like it's wired for 240V, but I can't see the transformer in the upper right clear enough to read the data plate on it. It does have 600V main fuses, so indicates it could run on 480V, but is obviously capable of 240V operation. My best guess is the only thing on that machine that requires 3 phase is the spindle motor. Don't change any wiring until the current voltage setup can be positively confirmed.

Without any documentation and your stated limited control system experience, repairing/using the existing Fagor control is pretty much a lost cause. Besides there is no point in running that machine on a 30 year old controller. But quite honestly since you have that Grizzly sitting there, I would get it running first, just for practice. Once you are more comfortable with CNC controls and systems, then tackle the Lagun.

The existing servo drives most likely use a +/- 10 VDC analog command signal, not a problem, but will limit your control hardware choices. Dynomotion Kflop/Kanalog and Galil products will run them, there are a couple of other options also but I can't remember them at the moment. All are compatible with Mach3/4. Centroid would be another option.

There are a few of us here that have done this a time or two so can offer advice and sympathy :)
 
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jeepguy88

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Without any documentation and your stated limited control system experience, repairing/using the existing Fagor control is pretty much a lost cause. Besides there is no point in running that machine on a 30 year old controller. But quite honestly since you have that Grizzly sitting there, I would get it running first, just for practice. Once you are more comfortable with CNC controls and systems, then tackle the Lagun.
Thanks for the reply Jim, I see your in Oregon too!
I agree with trying to repair the Fagor as a moot point. On the other hand, it would be nice to see it work, only to resell the controls and recoup some money. Theres a Fagor 8010 screen and panel on ebay at the moment that I was socked to see the price on.
My Grizzly works just fine, as a manual machine. The grizz was non-op when I bought it, it was a backyard conversion, had some odd bracketry to hold the servos on there, I dont know if system ever worked. I just took the brackets off and installed handles. It does have ball screws that are really smooth :) The quill setup was really funky and I dont think it worked, just looking out it was all built. The grizzly is all back to normal. I was just saying I have the motors from that machine on hand in case they are needed.

The Kflop.
Kanalog Expansion Board for KFLOP
looks pretty reasonably priced.

I bet all the smarts are in that control box. I’d be tempted to try and get that working, it’s conversational right?
Not yet. lol

When I turned the machine on, the motor worked, pressing the power button on the control box, I could hear the computer turn on, but it wouldnt stay on unless I held the power button in, and all the servos ran until they ran out of room while I was holding the power button down.

Ill go get some more photos
 

jeepguy88

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The first clear clean image Im guessing this is an original servo, this is for the z axis. The not so clear label is for the y axis.
And a couple more shots of the electrical box.
I was thinking of just plugging the computer in to the wall outlet to test and mess around with it.
 

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JimDawson

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The machine seems to be wired for 240 volts. Looks like all of the controls are single phase, so only the spindle motor requires 3 phase.

I can't read the tags on the servo drives in the cabinet, but comparing them to my drives they look the same. To the right of servo drives looks like a multi-voltage power supply. This probably supplies power to the controller, probably supplies 5 and 12V, and maybe 24V

The servo motors look to be rated at 1.2KW and I'm guessing are actually running on about 100V DC. That should be supplied by the big transformer in the upper center of the cabinet.
 

jeepguy88

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I was able to verify power to the control panel, but its non responsive. Pressing on the power button, the servos all power up and go one direction. It doesnt stay on, after releasing the power button, the system turns off. I unplugged the control panel, pressed the power button again, and the servo drives turn on and stay on with a loud continous alarm sound. I think its safe to say the Fagor control panel is gone
 

JimDawson

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Yup, kinda sounds that way.

So the next choice is to decide if you want to use the existing servos, and then to match a control system to them.
 

jeepguy88

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Might as well use the servos that are in place already. Two are old, but one has been replaced. And I know that they all work, so thats not an issue. I was just reading up a little on the Kflop and mesa boards.
So basically, wire up the kflop or mesa board and figure out to get it to read on the computer?
 

JimDawson

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Well in a nutshell that's about it. So the next question is what CNC software you want to use. I think Dynomotion has their own CNC software, Mach3/4 is an option also. Not sure if Centroid is compatible with either of those boards, but they also have boards that will interface with those servos.
 

jeepguy88

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I was leaning towards Mach4. I also kinda wanted to try linuxcnc. Im thinking that Mach4 is proably more user friendly and easier to learn. I played around with Ubuntu a little bit back in the day, but seem to take me awhile to figure things out.
 

JimDawson

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Mach4 is fine. Now you just need to identify all of the existing wiring and hardware, you need to create an I/O map and an accurate schematic with wire colors. Then decide what you are going to use and what you can remove. You will want to pretty much keep the power controls intact to the degree possible, and figure out the needed modifications and wiring changes.
 

jeepguy88

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Thanks Jim, sounds pretty simple.
Im also thinking about putting a vfd instead of running of my RFC. I would be able to control the spindle on and off and speed with mach4 on the computer right?
The kflop/kanalog is compatiable with most servo drivers/controllers? Incase my servo drives arent so good? I see a gekodrivers for brushed dc motors are only $115 each
 

JimDawson

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It is pretty simple. I did the upgrade on mine in 1 1/2 days, didn't even take the job off of the table. That thread seems to be missing from H-M, I guess I need to recreate it. But here is a similar thread of Alloy's Shizuoka upgrade, done in my shop also. https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/shizouka-an-s-build.33868/

A VFD for the spindle would be my choice.

Yes, Mach4 can control the spindle VFD.

Kflop/Kanalog can control most servo drives.
 

jeepguy88

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Thanks Jim, Im going to order the Kflop/Kanalog this weekend. That Shizuoka build is amazing! Hopefully my upgrade doesnt take me to terribly long.
 

Karl_T

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I'll just mention this so you are aware. this would be a good candidate to go top shelf and get a Camsoft control. This control uses a Galil control card for real time control feedback to the encoders for accurate position sensing. WAY more ability than other PC controls.

it is spendy and a bit more difficult to install. I am biased. After doing a couple AHHA stepper controls, and a Mach 2 control, I moved up to Camsoft. its like going from the pony express to airmail.
 

jeepguy88

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Started oreding stuff. Orderd a vfd off amazon, its a Lapond, I had a really good experience with my first Lapond vfd running my first lathe. Ordered the kflop/kanalog board. Im going to try and run a touchscreen, that seems pretty slick. Have to order one those too. And tooling, I dont have any 40taper tooling. :confused:. Also ordered a 6" vice off amazon too.
Better be worth it, so far with fuel, trailer rental, vice, motion control boards, vfd, Im out some serious monies after getting the machine homeo_O. Still have to purchase touch screen and mach4. And buy or build a draw bar, and build or buy a powerdraw bar. oh boy.
 

JimDawson

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Time to sit down with the Kflop/Kanalog manual and figure out how to wire this thing up. :)
 

jeepguy88

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Rearanged the electrical box, pulled all the 3phase stuff out and am starting to figure out how to wire up the Kanalog. And thats where Im hitting my first wall.
JimDawson was kind enough to send over the manual for the ServoDynamics 1525 amplifiers. I partially understand most of it. lol
Ive spent the last two days trying to find more info on the kanalog wiring diagrams. This is where Ive hit a wall. I dont know what or where to plug anything into the Kanalog board. I thought finding Kanalog infor would have been the easier part. Looked on the dynomotionwiki page, but wasnt able to find anything specific
 

JimDawson

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this help?

 

jeepguy88

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Yup!
Thats pretty much what I was looking for and couldnt find .
Thanks Jim.
We'll see how far I get this time lol
 

jeepguy88

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Only more confusing....lol
Ill try and start with something simple
so on one of the driver boards (page 7 of the manual) there are a few wires pluged into J1. Using slots 3,4,8,11,14,15.
#3 Tach Input- Used for tach input only, this input has additional tach filtering and conditioning - single ended.
#4 signal common used as a common when pins 1 2 and 3 of J1 are used as imputs
#8 Remote Shutdown
#11 Power supply common and ground
#14&15 limit switch overtravel

These where plugged into part of the old controller. I dont understand the verbage here and how it connects to what on the Kanalog.
 

JimDawson

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This is simple..... If you have been working with this stuff for the last 35 or 40 years like I have :grin: It can be a bit daunting if you have not seen the nomenclature before, and trying translate between the Kanalog manual and the SD manual.

Pin 2 (signal input) is where you will connect the Kanalog JP11, DAC_10V for each axis. DAC means Digital to Analog Converter, and in this case +/- 10 Volt output
Pin 4 (signal common) is where you will connect the Kanalog JP11, GND

Pin 3 is where the motor tachometer + connects
Pin 4 (signal common) is where the motor tachometer - connects.
(these two should already be connected)

Pin 8 can be used as an enable, inhibits the drive output when pulled to ground.
Don't worry about the other pins for now.
 
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