Lagunmatic CNC machine why not!

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
That makes much more sense. Thanks!
Yes, totally new to all this, and the language of the two is my first hurtle.
Pin 2 (signal input) is where you will connect the Kanalog JP11, DAC_10V for each axis. DAC means Digital to Analog Converter, and in this case +/- 10 Volt output
Pin 4 (signal common) is where you will connect the Kanalog JP11, GND
I can handle that tomorrow.
Another small step I should be working on?
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,097
Another small step I should be working on?
Not sure where you're at. But at this point you should preparing an I/O map. Much easier to make changes on paper or a computer than to rewire the system. Then when you start wiring, all you have to do is follow the map. The following is an example, I do these in a spreadsheet

FunctionGalil TermConnectorVoltageConnect toOrigional
INPUT
INPUT COMINCOM17I/OGND
Z LOCKOUTIN 1IN 1I/O24VSEL SWITCH
E-STOPIN 2IN 2I/O24VCP RELAY
PRIOR ACTIN 3IN 3I/O24V
IN 4IN 4I/O24V
IN 5IN 5I/O24V
IN 6IN 6I/O24V
IN 7IN 7I/O24V
IN 8IN 8I/O24V
COMMON5V30Ext I/O5V
JOG X-IN 2519Ext I/O5VJOY STICK 1
JOG X+IN 264Ext I/O5VJOY STICK 1
JOG Y-IN 2734Ext I/O5VJOY STICK 1
JOG Y+IN 2820Ext I/O5VJOY STICK 1
JOG Z-IN 295Ext I/O5VJOY STICK 2
JOG Z+IN 3035Ext I/O5VJOY STICK 2
IN 3121Ext I/O5V
IN 326Ext I/O5V
DIGITAL GNDGND33Ext I/O
DIGITAL GNDGND36Ext I/O
DIGITAL GNDGND39Ext I/O
DIGITAL GNDGND43Ext I/O
LSCOMLSCOMLSCOMI/O
LEFT LIMIT XFLXFLXI/OLMT SWITCH
RIGHT LIMIT XRLXRLXI/OLMT SWITCH
FRONT LIMIT YFLYFLYI/OLMT SWITCH
BACK LIMIT YRLYRLYI/OLMT SWITCH
TOP LIMIT ZFLZFLZI/OLMT SWITCH
BOTTOM LIMIT ZRLZRLZI/OLMT SWITCH
OUTPUT
OUTPUT PWROPWR11I/O24V
SPINDLE RUNOUT 141I/O24VRELAY
FLOOD COOLENTOUT 227I/O24VRELAY120VAC
MIST COOLENTOUT 312I/O24VSOLINOID24V
QUILL LOCKOUT 442I/O24VSOLINOID24V
COUNTER BALOUT 528I/O24VSOLINOID24V
 

Karl_T

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
1,309
I see Jim is saving another person. He saved me too. Dunno what we'd do without him.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
Not sure where you're at.
Im lost....lol jk
Its starting to make a little sense.
I removed all the 3phase stuff in the box. It had a 3phase coolant pump that was missing. There was a little extra wiring and switches. then all the transformers for the stepdowns, that are now just wired to one of the 120 legs. Have my vfd installed and working for the spindle. I have the Kanalog board mounted. Thats its. Still have alot of wires hanging out that came from the Fagor control box. Computer is all hooked up running. I havent downloaded any software.
I found a wiring schematic on cnczone.com. I think this one is pretty relative. I just need to figure out what my encoders are for each axis and wire accordingly.
Making a spreadsheet seems like a great idea, but again I dont understand most of the verbiage. I figured I would be wiring and rewiring 4-5 times lol. Pretty sure making a spreadsheet will be really easy when Im done....lol
 

Attachments

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,097
The schematic looks good.

I'm assuming the encoders are on the motors, so one caution, remove the belt from the motor until you're sure you have the motor under computer control. Those motors are powerful enough to do some mechanical damage if they run away. A runaway is very common when first setting up. Normally caused by having the encoder and motor running in opposite directions. You have a 50/50 shot at getting it correct the first time.

I don't know anything about the Kanalog setup, but there may be a way to change the direction in the program without rewiring. It there is a torque limit method available, set it very low to start with.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
Oh yes, I have the belts off. I love carnage as much as the next guy, however I don't want to wreck the new toy.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
Feel like Im getting somewhere now. lol
I wanted to find some info about the wiring for the encoders. Before I hooked them up wrong and fried something. Looked around for a few hours on how to figure out what wire is what on the encoders wasn't coming up with much useful info. Maybe if looked inside the fagor control box might give me a clue to what is at least positive and negative. Oh looky there! surprise, its labeled on the back of the old control box! How convenient, Still some odd verbiage.
So for the encoder I have
Red .....+5v
White .....A something?
Green .....B something?
Black ....Ov
black .....IO
Green..... Ground

i dont know what Ov stands for or what I0 stands for?

Im half way to knowing whats needed to make a spread sheet :)
 

Attachments

Last edited:

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,097
A and B are the A and B channels, should go to A+ and B+ on the Kanalog board.

Pretty sure 0V means 0 volts or rather GND on the Kanalog board

I0 maybe means Index, but I don't fully understand the IO (I0?) The fact that the wire is black is also a bit confusing, could it be another color? Maybe black with a stripe of a different color?

Green ground, probably means the shield ground.

I would replace the encoders with differential output encoders (A, A\, B, B\), the single ended output can cause problems with electrical noise. The Kanalog board will accept differential input. In fact, you might want to install magnetic scales on the table and Z, better accuracy than having the encoder on the motor.


My X axis magnetic scale
1573248230810.png
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
All the axis have two black wires, one going to OV and one going to IO. I'll try and do some more digging and see if I can find some more info.
All this and I forgot to order a power supply for the kanalog board....
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,097
That is strange, the two black wires is a bit confusing. Maybe you can find a part number on the encoder itself, there may be some documentation available.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
Didnt really find any info on the motors, other than they are 1000 encoders. Im going to assume the blacks are A-B-. If White and green are A+ and B+ then black would be A-and B- . Maybe Fargor labeled them weird just for giggles.
I had to order a little stepdown transformer for the kflop board. I have 24vdc in the box, Ill tap the 24vdc for the 24vdc to 5vdc transformer. Also have a 24vdc to 12vdc transformer for the kflop board too, but not sure I need 12v to the board.
Maybe in a few days Ill see if this all works, or if I burn the garage down.
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,097
Im going to assume the blacks are A-B-. If White is A+ then black would be A-.
That picture tells the story, hadn't seen it before. Now I understand. I don't think you have encoders at all, but rather resolvers.

A~ and B~ depict a 1V P-P sine wave for a sine/cos type encoder

Io and /Io are the index pulse

If A, /A, B, /B are not connected, then those encoders are not going to work with the Kanalog, it wants to see a square wave quadrature encoder.

Looks like the Fagor control can be configured to work with either type of output.

Exactly which pin is each wire connected to?
 
Last edited:

Karl_T

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
1,309
Looks like you need to install new encoders. I found this company has a large selection of kits for refitting to servos
 

Karl_T

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
1,309
I should mention I went cheap and got single end US digital encoders for my Hardinge CHNC years ago. Worked fine UNLESS the turret was moving while an axis moved. Then the noise caused a position change. Ruined parts was the result. It drove me nucking futs finding this issue.

Ever sense, differential encoders is the only way to go.

karl
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
I tried drawing a pic in paint.
Maybe I can take apart the servos and take some photos I wouldnt know the difference between encoders or resolvers. Ill get a few more photos of the back of the Fagor box too. fagor encoders.jpg
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,097
OK, that tells the story. You do have single ended quadrature encoders. Only using A, B, and I. They are not sine/cos encoders. Not the best, but will work, but as stated above, subject to electrical noise. These would connect to A, B, and I (or Z) on the Kanalog board. /A, /B, and /I would not be connected.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
Wow Jim! Your knowledge is impressive!. Resolvers, encoders, single ended quadrature all new words today for me.
What are the draw backs or positives of these single ended quadrature encoders? The table will be skipping .01 or like .00001?
What is the sideways money symbols? On the back of the fargor box?IMG_20191109_102048412.jpgIMG_20191109_102048412.jpg
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,097
I've just been doing this for a few years. :) Thank you.

A~ and B~ depict a 1V Peak to Peak sine wave for a sine/cos type encoder. Not common today, but used a lot back in the day. Digital electronics has improved a lot in the last 30 years.

Single ended quadrature encoders are subject to electrical noise, and thus might add pulses to the positioning which means that it is possible to come up short on a move. Or pulses may be added when it is just sitting there. Overall not a good situation. Why they would have used those in the original installation is beyond me. The cost difference is about 0, at least today, and there is no advantage to using single ended output encoders.

Modern electronics (Kanalog board in your case) are much more sensitive to electrical noise because of the lower switching currents used. The old stuff required a bit more current to switch, so was more immune to external electrical noise.

Differential quadrature (line driver output) encoders are almost noise immune and much more reliable.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
Ill just wrap some wires with tin foil to make a noise filter....lol jk.
Lots to take in today.
My skill level is not to uber precision part making, so Ill probably be alright.
Going to work on making a drawbar today while I wait for those step down transformers.
 

Karl_T

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
1,309
FWIW, differential was considerable more expensive 20 years ago. I got single end on my Excello mill, very similar to your mill. It has ran without issue for 18 years with camsoft.

Today, the cost difference is almost nothing.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
Feel like I'm getting close to at least trying to turn a servo.
Got X axis servo driver and encoder wired, Kflop is wired 5v and 12v and hooked to the computer.
I've got to to track down a few wires that go to the power on button that powered the servos on. I think. I'm not sure what power source this is connected to. Track that down tomorrow and then firgure out some software stuff then work on limit switches. Are my next few steps.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
I was successul in getting the 24v dc power buttons to work. I was successul in gettting my computer talking to the kflop board. I feel like these where some big hurdles. Off to the next hurtle. Which might have been part of the original death of this machine...lol When the fagor control box was plugged into the axis the power switch would not turn anything on. Hold the button down and the servo amplifiers would power on, but not stay on. Unplug the fagor control box, press the power button and the servo amplifiers would stay on by themselves. hmm. As of today, the servo amplifiers only stay on when the power button is held down. Im wondering if this has something to do with the limit switches. The Y axis limit switches I can hear click and then make a annoying alarm type sound? The y axis limit switches are dripping with oil...so could be a problem. Another dumb noob question are the limit switches plugged in to the kanalog board or are they supposed to be lugged into the servo amplifier cards? This machine has two differnent style of switches. I found a fried limit switch on the z axis.
 

Karl_T

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
1,309
Jim is a miracle worker, but I don't think even he can trace wiring over the 'net.

My suggestion, you got too big a problem, break it down to bite size chunks. leave the belts off the servos, jump all the limit switches. There may be other stuff you can jumper. See if you can get the servos to power when hitting the reset, then stop on Estop. Only when you got that, look at adding more devieces.

Just the concept here, adjust for your situation.

Karl
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,097
It could be that the limit switches are connected to the servo enable circuit.

I would expect a click sound from a limit switch, but I have never heard a limit switch make an alarm sound. Normally the limit switches are sealed so some oil should not be a problem.

I would expect the limit switches to be plugged into the Kanalog board.

Small snap switches are common on the Z axis, the X and Y axes should have more conventional limit switches.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
thanks for the quick replies!
I was mistaken its not the limit switches. It was the Y axis motor that is making noise. Its got a roller looking type limit switch for X and Y and some click lever or the Z.
I just took apart the Y axis limit switches and they look fine inside their box was dry. The outside is under the saddle and it was pretty dirty.
See if you can get the servos to power when hitting the reset, then stop on Estop
Thats the general idea Im working at. I have the belts off ;)
I might have the limit switches wired in on accident. There was a 3phase contact starter that had some 24vdc wires controling part of it. I might have tied the wrong 24v wires together.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
Im thinking pull all the limit switch wiring, if they need to be rewired to the kanalog board any.?
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
I got a servo to turn. This is not the normal good news, this is bad news. lol. I have the X axis pluged into the kanalog and X servo amplifier and X axis encoder wired. I unluged all the limit switches, and unpluged the Y axis from its servo amplifier card,sense it was making the noise. Turn on the power switch, and the Y axis servo starts to spin.....lol Wrong axis! wrong Button! but Im making a little progress. Going look over the 24v dc system again tomorrow and try and figure out what and where more of the relays go and do. I think my mystery lies in there somewhere.
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,097
OOPS :) A little wiring error, we've all been there.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
My machine has lost like 20lbs of copper wire.....lol
2 things that are probably simple but I dont understand.
1)The ServoDynamics board, I can figure out what power supply this runs off of or where it comes from
2) The 5v supply for the encoders coming off the kanalog board. I dont have anything. Im guessing Im suppose to run 5v to this? Or The board is supposed to be grounded? I thought the 5v running to the kflop would have taken care of this?
 
Top