Lagunmatic CNC machine why not!

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,096
The power for the SD boards comes from the big transformer, through the bridge rectifier, and the large blue cap. What switches on the transformer may be a contactor or a solid state relay. Both are used depending on the manufacturer. The solid state relay, next to the fuse block, is probably what switches the transformer. You are going to have to trace some wires. Coming off of the cap, the red wires are positive, and the gray wires are negative. The SD boards are directly wired to the cap.

Remember when I suggested creating an I/O map of everything that is there now? ;)


Not sure why you don't have 5V on the Kanalog board, is it powered up?
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
Ok as far as the SD boards goes, thats starting to make sense. There is a SSR. I didnt see anything in the SD boards manual about what exactly was powering them or where it plugs into the board. I was going to try and double check the input is correct.

The KFlop powers the Kanalog? I have 5vDC and 12vDC to the Kflop. I thought Kflop powered Kanalog? Checked for 5volts on the Kanalog on JP8 where its says 5v and ground on JP6. I didnt see this or dont understand the Kanalog Connector page on the website
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,096
That's interesting, there does not seem to be any reference to what jumper powers up the SD board. But I think it's J5. Wherever the red and gray wires are connected is the power connection. I never bothered to look at mine. It's the bottom connector on the board.

From the Kanalog manual
''JP8 - FET Switch Outputs (relay drivers) - watchdog - power outputs

(4) +5V outputs are available to power low current (<100ma) external circuitry such as encoders. Normally +5V is applied to Kflop JR1 (4 pin white Molex connector) and passes through the ribbon connector to Kanalog. However it is also possible to feed +5V into the system via these terminals. If +5V power is fed into both Kflop and Kanalog the exact same +5V supply must be connected to both.''

It looks like you could grab the 5V encoder power and GND from anywhere that you have 5V as long as it's all the same power supply.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
That's interesting, there does not seem to be any reference to what jumper powers up the SD board. But I think it's J5. Wherever the red and gray wires are connected is the power connection. I never bothered to look at mine. It's the bottom connector on the board
Ok. Makes sense. Im kinda working backwards from the SD boards to my power switch. There seems to be a few relays inbetween that Im not sure about.

Kanalog, ah got it, 5v IN on the J8. I thought 5v in on KFLOP would be 5v out on the kanalog. I'll wire up the 5v for the encoders off the 5v powersupply for kflop
 

Karl_T

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
1,308
dunno if this is any help but I'll share my methods. I've done six or eight new controls depending on how you count. One of my first, I did pretty much as you are doing - tried to clean up an almost running control. I got it running then something would break and I was lost again. Spent WAY more time than starting over and still did not have something easy to maintain.


For power supplied to devices, all the supplies are in one corner of the enclosure. there will be a row of little fuses for each voltage, one per device. In the case of +5V a wire for the Kfllop numbered 105, a wire for the encoders numbered 106, etc. NO DAISY CHAINING ALLOWED. In my case I use red wire for all the +5 volt. I also keep a spreadsheet of each wire number, where it starts, and ends, and its function. Its not a EE print, but its easy to record as you go and plenty of info for years from now when something breaks.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
Well.... todays progress report.......
Im learning some kmotion software. Seems like the options are endless. Im not sure if poking around here or poking around the control panel wires makes my head hurt more....lol
I did remember that when the old controller was plugged in, and the power button was pressed, nothing would happen but a alarm kinda sound, unplug the Fagor controller and hit the power button, all the axis would start to move. Im getting the same thing going on now, If I unplug the J1 labeled connector from the servo drivers, press the power button, the fans kick on and the servos spin. Plug the J1 into the servo drivers, press the power button, no fan comes on,but power is applyed to the servos locking thier rotation, resulting in the high pitched alarm type sound Im hearing.
The only thing pluged in to J1 on the SD is Pin2 Signal input PIN3 Tach PIn 4 ground. Pin 2 is connected to JP11DAC#1 for X axis. PIn3 is connected to motor ground and JP11 ground on kanalog.

I dont think i have the encoders wired correctly . I have A+B+and I(Z). ON Kanalog JP1 A wired to A+1 B wired to B+1 and I wired to JP2 A4+ read on the kanalog connections web page Z was to be wired to JP2.
Pretty sure kmotion isnt seeing any encoder for any axis.
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,096
Well.... todays progress report.......
Im learning some kmotion software. Seems like the options are endless. Im not sure if poking around here or poking around the control panel wires makes my head hurt more....lol
:)

I did remember that when the old controller was plugged in, and the power button was pressed, nothing would happen but a alarm kinda sound, unplug the Fagor controller and hit the power button, all the axis would start to move. Im getting the same thing going on now, If I unplug the J1 labeled connector from the servo drivers, press the power button, the fans kick on and the servos spin. Plug the J1 into the servo drivers, press the power button, no fan comes on,but power is applyed to the servos locking thier rotation, resulting in the high pitched alarm type sound Im hearing.
I don't understand why the fans don't come on under all conditions, but maybe there is an ''OK'' or ''Ready'' signal from the drive that is switching on the fan relay. I removed all of that type of original control wiring in mine, and replaced it with my own relays and switching. I turn the fans on with the same relay that fires up the servo power.

The high pitched sound is the PWM carrier frequency. I lucked out and don't have that noise on my mill. But the Shizuoka Z axis is really loud, and I've not been able to get rid of it, but the X & Y are fine. I suspect it's something ''loose'' in the motor.

The only thing pluged in to J1 on the SD is Pin2 Signal input PIN3 Tach PIn 4 ground. Pin 2 is connected to JP11DAC#1 for X axis. PIn3 is connected to motor ground and JP11 ground on kanalog
I assume by ''motor ground'' that you mean the tach signal ground on pin 3.

I dont think i have the encoders wired correctly . I have A+B+and I(Z). ON Kanalog JP1 A wired to A+1 B wired to B+1 and I wired to JP2 A4+ read on the kanalog connections web page Z was to be wired to JP2.
Pretty sure kmotion isnt seeing any encoder for any axis.
If everything is wired up correctly, with the SD power off and the kanalog powered up, you should be able to turn the motor by hand and the kanalog should read the encoder. Are you getting power to the encoders, and do you have the encoder 0V wire connected back to the 5V return (common or -)

We need to define ''ground'' a bit better here. When talking about signal wiring ''ground'' normally refers to 0V or a common return, rather than an earth ground. This can be a bit confusing when two different terminals are called ''ground'' In many cases the 0V may be connected to earth ground, but sometimes is left floating. A long as I have transformer isolation, I normally connect all of the 0V lines to earth ground.

In power wiring, in most cases ground means an earth ground.
 

Karl_T

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
1,308
I've found good standard (for me at least) wiring practices REALLY help on down the road when something breaks.

Always use white wire for DC common. All wires go back to the DC common terminal block. End up with more white wire than anything in the machine. In my case DC common is bonded to the machine in only one spot - near the terminal block.

Always use red wire for 5V and number every one at both ends, all power comes from individual fuses normally 0.1 amp.

I try to use +DC 24 volt for most logic. Its always a blue wire number on both ends and comes from a +24 volt fuse bank. They are in small groups - X and Y home and limits - Z home and limits - users panel buttons - etc.

I try to always use sourcing normally closed on all I O. ( some control computers may not permit this) But the point is to always do it the same. I like this cause a voltmeter can quickly check each and every input at the control to find or eliminate hardware issues.

I try real hard to use other wire colors for signals and keep them the same for similar functions - X home Y home Z home are all purple. +limits all brown, etc. These wires will all be numbered at both ends. I often use the terminal number on the control board as the wire number

I keep a spread sheet of every wire - color - number - ID of each end - function. I find this far easier than making a EE print cause you just do it as you go. And its plenty of notes for later when trouble comes.

Take the extra time at build pays HUGE dividends down the road.


I know some of this is redundant to my earlier post. I do think its important enough to repeat.

Karl
 

Karl_T

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
1,308
...

I dont think i have the encoders wired correctly . I have A+B+and I(Z). ON Kanalog JP1 A wired to A+1 B wired to B+1 and I wired to JP2 A4+ read on the kanalog connections web page Z was to be wired to JP2.
Pretty sure kmotion isnt seeing any encoder for any axis.
Get yourself a logic probe

check for signal at the control.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
I really appreciate all the help. Im sure answering newbie questions gets old. Seems like on most of the other forums people run into more complicated problems further down the line, my step in this process should already be a known given.....lol

We need to define ''ground'' a bit better here. When talking about signal wiring ''ground'' normally refers to 0V or a common return, rather than an earth ground.
AH! yes, thats a problem I recognize now.

The only thing pluged in to J1 on the SD is Pin2 Signal input PIN3 Tach PIn 4 ground. Pin 2 is connected to JP11DAC#1 for X axis. PIn3 is connected to motor ground and JP11 ground on kanalog
That didnt come out correctly, let me rephrase and try again.
Pin2 on the SD is connected to JP11 terminal1
PIN3 on SD is Tach input, this is connected to the servo motor. I didnt touch
PIN4 on SD had 2 wires pluged in one going to what looks like the same location as the tach on pin3, the other, wire #2 looks like it goes to somewhere with the limit switches. I connected a 3rd wire here, PIN4 going to Ground on JP11. Ground to common problem here?

When the servo motor was making its noise it was applying voltage to both legs? At least thats what I measured on the bus bar.

Im going to work on the encoders today. I have do have the 5v negative wired to a ground when it looks like it should be wired to a 0v

Get yourself a logic probe
Done. I dont have that in my tool box and looks like it might be useful.

Seems like most of the wiring in the box is color coordinated. And Im trying to stay the same. So when Im done it lookes nice and clean and professional. :)
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,096
I connected a 3rd wire here, PIN4 going to Ground on JP11. Ground to common problem here?
I think you have it wired correctly

When the servo motor was making its noise it was applying voltage to both legs? At least thats what I measured on the bus bar.
There should be some voltage across the 2 legs of the motor. That's what is holding it in position. You would not measure to ground here, just across the motor leads. Bus bar? Not sure where you are measuring here.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
Getting some where now! I partially took the X servo motor apart and looked at the encoder for some clues. Its a DataMetrics model 5-9872. A google search didnt provide any info. But .....The terminals on the encoder are labeled for # and function! worlds of info! lol The wires exciting them are also labeled which made a huge help. As o right now I have the encoders reading position in Kmotion on the axis screen. Turn the servo and the postion # changes. Feel like Im getting somewhere. lol

The encoder on the servo is labeled for AA BB and MM on the encoder. Doesnt say + or - but has a small dash line above one of the letters. Im currently using
1 5v+
2) common. ;)
3)A
4)B
5)M (z?)

Still leaves A B M with lines above them not being used.

This axis servo motor looks alot newer than the other two. I try and pull the baldor motors apart and see if I can get any clues from the encoders
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
Roger that.
Let me try and open the other servo motors to see if I can learn something from them.

Heres a photo of where I was measuring for voltage. The #1labeled white is common all through the box. I have 6volts on 321 and 322 which go to the servos. Seems like I should have 0 volts when I turn the power button on?
Tested.jpg
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
All three servo motors have the same model of encoder. :)
What does the M stand for?
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,096
Heres a photo of where I was measuring for voltage. The #1labeled white is common all through the box. I have 6volts on 321 and 322 which go to the servos. Seems like I should have 0 volts when I turn the power button on?
That looks like a multi-voltage power supply. Not sure what the 321 and 322 do. What jumper and pins are they connected to on the drives?
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
321 and 322 go to the servo motor. All the black numbers go to the servo motors. They are connected to J5 on the servo drives. Looks like pin 7&8?

Ive got X and Y servo encoders talking to the computer. Y shouldnt be a problem.
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,096
321 and 322 go to the servo motor. All the black numbers go to the servo motors. They are connected to J5 on the servo drives. Looks like pin 7&8?
OK then those are the motor power wires. So checking to wire #1 won't tell you much since they aren't referenced to ground. You just measure between 321 and 322 to get the armature voltage.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
Ah, gotcha.:drunk:
Should be 0 when I turn the machine on or should there be a little voltage to lock the motor? And the fans should come on? I feel like one of the relays is suppling power to something its not suppose to
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,096
I would expect some voltage when turned on. That's how the rotor is locked. If it under proper control of the Kanalog board, the voltage should increase as you attempt to turn the motor shaft, thus trying to maintain position.

As far as the fans, they should come on when the drives are powered up. I would rewire the relays so they are under your control. Originally they may have been under the control of the Fagor controller. In my cabinet there is one fan that comes on at system power up for general cabinet air flow, the two servo drive cooling fans are wired into the same relay that powers up the the drives, thus only come on when the drives are powered up. The drives themselves do not control my fans.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
I will have to go back and work on the relays.
Turn the power on I get a couple of rotations on the X axis then stops.
X axis I get .04ish volts. Its fluctuation a little bit
Y axis has .03 volts and
Y axis 0
X axis encoder was reading as the motor was turning.
Y axis encoder was going, but the motor wasnt turning? Turn the motor by hand and the encoder seems to read smooth and normal?
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,096
Y axis encoder was going, but the motor wasnt turning? Turn the motor by hand and the encoder seems to read smooth and normal?
Electrical noise. Time to connect the /A, /B, and /M on all of the encoders. As I mentioned before, modern electronics are more sensitive to electrical noise than the old stuff.

Also, due to the waveform of the servo drive PWM output, you may not be able to accurately measure the voltage across the armature, you really need a scope to do this correctly. Nothing to worry about as long as it works OK.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
I did connect /A,/B/M. I think the connection inside the encoder might be bad. The screw for the terminal was seized on /B and /M. The post the screw is in broke free before the screw did. ? The wires for the encoder are shielded and wraped with a naked wire thats not connected to anything, should this be tied to a earth ground?
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,096
That is not good. You will need to fix the connection.

The shield wire should be connected at one end only, either to earth or signal ground, depending on which works the best. I normally make the connection at the panel end.
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
Im not sure how the encoders are attached to shaft. I dont see a key. They seem to be attached with a spring looking shaft.

I do have some relay issues I need to track down. I pulled all the relays, and I can still press the power button and hold it down and it provides power to the SD. :rolleyes:
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,096
Normally encoders are attached with some kind of flexible coupling. I have even used a short piece of air hose and hose clamps. Also many tome the encoders are mounted on a flex plate of some kind, the idea is to allow the encoder to radialy and axialy float with a solid rotational joint.

My best guess is that the servo power button is directly connected to the servo SSR, and that is sealed in by one of the other relays. The E-stop should be in series with the servo power button.

Here is the way mine is wired

1573931422263.png
 

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
Think I found a small issue. (One of many, lol)The SD drivers are not turing on. I have 120vAC the the SD driver when my power button is pressed. Checked for 15v on pin J4, thats affirmed. Reading the Trouble shooting section of the SD manual, pin 14&15 are supposed to "pulled low"? I removed these and disconnected, all the limit switches. :rolleyes:. What does pulled low mean? and What should I be doing with pin 14&15.
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Platinum Supporter ($50)
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8,096
If the jumpers have been cut, I think to override the limit switch connection on pins 14 and 15, you need to connect those pins to pin 9 or 11 (power supply common & ground) (pulled low = connected to ground)
 
Last edited:

jeepguy88

Active Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
79
Had to order some molex connectors. Going to be a few days delay. :frown:
Ill work on encoders for a the next few days till the molex connectors get here
 
Top