Let's talk , Cincinnati Toolmaster 1A and 1B

Back up a little to extending the shaft. Did many, many broken and replacement shafts at my second shop of employment. Common way was to bore a hole in the end of the shaft, 45° chamfer heavily, and turn an oversized shaft piece down to a nub to fit the bore and 45° it as well. That way there is no real precision required to the bore. Just match the nub to it. About an inch of engagement is enough. Tight within 0.001 is fine. Tap it in, weld it out and steady rest the bearing journal on the original shaft and turn to match. Center drill if needed. Key if needed. Usually took less than an hour. Did motors up to about 150 hp or so. Never had a come-back.
 
first what wrench or tool? what gears? After high school I worked in Raytheon on the Applo project so
what I see doesnt scare me. But it does no good with out the "key diagram" we use to call it. Each
and every marked terminal goes somewhere & with out a key diagram, each and every one has to be
physically traced. Personally I see no need of all that. I ll bet there is extra terminals for add on
attachments. And that you are replacing the main motor "wouldnt it make more sense= line into master
disconect > from there to on & off buttons >from there to for/rev switch>from there to main motor.


On mine totally origional, brand new in there, my guess is with main on, power goes to on/off buttons,
from there power comes back to the (rear) juicing up relays & a step down transformer, then back
to table motor switch, coolant switch and for/rev switch main motor. Thats what I hear pushing the
on button. CLUNK! I' ve only had my panel off once Its heavier than me and I rememer that fuse and ill bet
its for what seems to be a stepdown trans. to 110vts probably for a light bulb (my lights plugged
directly in wall plug 110) I leave that master (rear on) all the time, I just shut the 220 down when
leaving the shop, cause they are always leaving air lines on, then the compressor runs all night.
electrical engineers? fun aint it.
 
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Also circled in green... What are these exactly?

87C87B33-2E2E-4645-B7CE-17266F6A1163-2912-000001C21C56AB54.jpg



Also is the 115v step down only for the light ? I'm not exactly sure what the "starter" is .

The devices circled in green are overload devices, they're like circuit breakers. Apparently the one on the bottom is for the saddle motor. There's another pair built into the bottom of the motor starter for 1M.

The step down transformer also powers the control circuit for motor 1M (probably the spindle motor. It's what makes the start and stop buttons work with the motor starter immediately above the transformer.

Cal

87C87B33-2E2E-4645-B7CE-17266F6A1163-2912-000001C21C56AB54.jpg

87C87B33-2E2E-4645-B7CE-17266F6A1163-2912-000001C21C56AB54.jpg
 
Back up a little to extending the shaft. Did many, many broken and replacement shafts at my second shop of employment. Common way was to bore a hole in the end of the shaft, 45° chamfer heavily, and turn an oversized shaft piece down to a nub to fit the bore and 45° it as well. That way there is no real precision required to the bore. Just match the nub to it. About an inch of engagement is enough. Tight within 0.001 is fine. Tap it in, weld it out and steady rest the bearing journal on the original shaft and turn to match. Center drill if needed. Key if needed. Usually took less than an hour. Did motors up to about 150 hp or so. Never had a come-back.

To do this do you pull the shaft out of the motor? I would think so in order to turn the shaft on the lathe correct ?

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The devices circled in green are overload devices, they're like circuit breakers. Apparently the one on the bottom is for the saddle motor. There's another pair built into the bottom of the motor starter for 1M.

The step down transformer also powers the control circuit for motor 1M (probably the spindle motor. It's what makes the start and stop buttons work with the motor starter immediately above the transformer.

Cal

I your opinion should I continue to use these or wire everything to breakers and then the main coming out of the box will take care of the main breaker. Looking at this thing maybe I can basically set this up like a breaker panel on the wall with a main and individual breakers or should these overload devices work fine? Can you explain to me the motor starter and how it actually works I've always been confused about these motor "starters" I understand capacitors for starting but this is not that. Is this for the purpose of sending a higher "jolt" at first to kick start the motor?

Also what fuse would you guys suggest I use in the red circle ? As I said it is a 3amp 230v that was in there originally or at least the last one put in the machine . It just seems awfully low on the the amperage .
 
first what wrench or tool? what gears? After high school I worked in Raytheon on the Applo project so
what I see doesnt scare me. But it does no good with out the "key diagram" we use to call it. Each
and every marked terminal goes somewhere & with out a key diagram, each and every one has to be
physically traced. Personally I see no need of all that. I ll bet there is extra terminals for add on
attachments. And that you are replacing the main motor "wouldnt it make more sense= line into master
disconect > from there to on & off buttons >from there to for/rev switch>from there to main motor.


On mine totally origional, brand new in there, my guess is with main on, power goes to on/off buttons,
from there power comes back to the (rear) juicing up relays & a step down transformer, then back
to table motor switch, coolant switch and for/rev switch main motor. Thats what I hear pushing the
on button. CLUNK! I' ve only had my panel off once Its heavier than me and I rememer that fuse and ill bet
its for what seems to be a stepdown trans. to 110vts probably for a light bulb (my lights plugged
directly in wall plug 110) I leave that master (rear on) all the time, I just shut the 220 down when
leaving the shop, cause they are always leaving air lines on, then the compressor runs all night.
electrical engineers? fun aint it.

On the top gear above the spindle which is the small gear there is two holes which seems to be for some sort of wrench . You can see it in the photo. Also if you download the schematic from my website you can see the full view of it and it makes sense to follow the wires. http://www.stellarsmithing.com/cincinnatiTM

I want to pull the gears directly above the spindle but have no idea what to call the tool that would do that.

I want to keep the unit as self contained as possible being one sole unit . Only one power cord into the machine and a few coming out of the center to power the shaper, spindle, and cross feed motor. I also am going to hard wire a light into it and a few receptacles . I have a few ideas .

I'm starting to get irritated now because I'm still waiting on my phase converter and now I'm waiting for their call but they won't call me back ... I'm going to call tomorrow about it again .

I also still need a coolant pump but I don't really know where to start with that. I don't even know what the style pump they use looks like or exactly what type I need .
 
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To do this do you pull the shaft out of the motor? I would think so in order to turn the shaft on the lathe correct ?

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Very rarely have I found a motor that I couldn't run the steady rest on the bearing journal with the rotor complete. IOW, no, no need to remove the shaft. That has its own complications that should be avoided whenever possible.

That reminds me of one motor I broke a file into 3 pieces with my forefinger.....when I trapped it in the cast aluminum cooling fins of the rotor. I still have no nerves in that fingertip. And that's been 34 years. I still have 2 pieces of the file. But kept 100% of the finger. :)
 
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I your opinion should I continue to use these or wire everything to breakers and then the main coming out of the box will take care of the main breaker. Looking at this thing maybe I can basically set this up like a breaker panel on the wall with a main and individual breakers or should these overload devices work fine? Can you explain to me the motor starter and how it actually works I've always been confused about these motor "starters" I understand capacitors for starting but this is not that. Is this for the purpose of sending a higher "jolt" at first to kick start the motor?

Also what fuse would you guys suggest I use in the red circle ? As I said it is a 3amp 230v that was in there originally or at least the last one put in the machine . It just seems awfully low on the the amperage .
There's absolutely no reason to change the controls unless they are damaged beyond repair. It's an old machine, but that doesn't mean that old parts don't work and work well. You wouldn't graft the spindle from an Chinese mill drill on the machine just because spindle is newer, would you? The electrical engineers who put the motors and controls on these machines were every bit as good as the mechanical engineers that designed the rest. In fact, most of those old EEs knew a heck of a lot more about motors and such than most control engineers in the field today. The fact that so many of these old machines are still running just fine on their vintage motors and controls is a testimony to how well the old EEs did their jobs.

The difference between the overload devices and the type of circuit breaker that you find in your electrical panel is the the overloads don't operate to directly interrupt the circuit. Each one has a switch that is normally closed and opens when the heater reaches a certain temperature. The switches for all of the overload devices are wired in series so that if any one of them reaches the overload state the main AC contactor will open and shut down power to the machine. Emergency stop buttons are also connected to the circuit. For example, it the feed motor overloads, you don't want the spindle to keep turning and vise versa. Imagine if the spindle stopped turning and the feed motor kept running? Somethings going to get broken.

On large single phase motors the motor starter is a relay or mechanical device that connects a start winding and usually a starting capacitor to power long enough to get the motor turning and then automatically disconnects the starting circuit. On most machine tools a different type of "motor starter" is used. They are basically big relays (electrically operated switches) and are often called contactors. Pressing the start button momentarily applies power to the contactor's coil circuit, causing the contacts to close if nothing is wrong. Now, all of the overload's switches, the emergency stop button(s) and any interlock switches have to be closed in order for the coil to get power and cause the contacts to close. An example of an interlock switch is a spindle lock interlock that prevents you from starting the machine if the spindle is locked. When the contactor closes one of its contacts is usually used to continue to power the coil circuit after the start button is released. This same system is used on all sorts of industrial machinery, some so large that you can't see the other side. If someone has pushed an emergency stop you have to go and pull it out before the machine can be started.

The 3A fuse only powers the work light and the contactor coil circuit, not the whole machine. The machine's motors are protected by the overload devices. Often there are also fuses and a knife-type disconnect switch in a box on the back or side of the machine where power comes in, but those fuses don't provide the primary protection for the machine's motors.

If any of that doesn't make sense, holler and I'll try again.

Cal
 
There's absolutely no reason to change the controls unless they are damaged beyond repair. It's an old machine, but that doesn't mean that old parts don't work and work well. You wouldn't graft the spindle from an Chinese mill drill on the machine just because spindle is newer, would you? The electrical engineers who put the motors and controls on these machines were every bit as good as the mechanical engineers that designed the rest. In fact, most of those old EEs knew a heck of a lot more about motors and such than most control engineers in the field today. The fact that so many of these old machines are still running just fine on their vintage motors and controls is a testimony to how well the old EEs did their jobs.

The difference between the overload devices and the type of circuit breaker that you find in your electrical panel is the the overloads don't operate to directly interrupt the circuit. Each one has a switch that is normally closed and opens when the heater reaches a certain temperature. The switches for all of the overload devices are wired in series so that if any one of them reaches the overload state the main AC contactor will open and shut down power to the machine. Emergency stop buttons are also connected to the circuit. For example, it the feed motor overloads, you don't want the spindle to keep turning and vise versa. Imagine if the spindle stopped turning and the feed motor kept running? Somethings going to get broken.

On large single phase motors the motor starter is a relay or mechanical device that connects a start winding and usually a starting capacitor to power long enough to get the motor turning and then automatically disconnects the starting circuit. On most machine tools a different type of "motor starter" is used. They are basically big relays (electrically operated switches) and are often called contactors. Pressing the start button momentarily applies power to the contactor's coil circuit, causing the contacts to close if nothing is wrong. Now, all of the overload's switches, the emergency stop button(s) and any interlock switches have to be closed in order for the coil to get power and cause the contacts to close. An example of an interlock switch is a spindle lock interlock that prevents you from starting the machine if the spindle is locked. When the contactor closes one of its contacts is usually used to continue to power the coil circuit after the start button is released. This same system is used on all sorts of industrial machinery, some so large that you can't see the other side. If someone has pushed an emergency stop you have to go and pull it out before the machine can be started.

The 3A fuse only powers the work light and the contactor coil circuit, not the whole machine. The machine's motors are protected by the overload devices. Often there are also fuses and a knife-type disconnect switch in a box on the back or side of the machine where power comes in, but those fuses don't provide the primary protection for the machine's motors.

If any of that doesn't make sense, holler and I'll try again.

Cal

Cal, Wow! This is explained very well to me and makes perfect sense.

I intend to use all of the electrical parts in this machine as they are . One question though... I have a knife type disconnect on the side that takes fuses as you predicted . No fuses where in there so I have nothing to go by but by the size of wire and amps the motors will pull it is safe to assume I can choose anything slightly above the amperage being pulled? Should I continue to use these style disconnects or change this over to breakers ? I'm fine with buying fuses to be honest .

If you had to guess what fuses would you choose? I will take a photo tomorrow evening of exactly what I have
 
Now I have a question Josh, back to the coolant. Its on the table back side there is only a little plate
call it a funnel and appears coolant just runs and drips all over knee ways. That drives me, so I made
another plate and brazed an elbow with that kinky 1/2" hose stuff now it drains into the drain no more
mess. So is yours like that just curious sam
 
...

I intend to use all of the electrical parts in this machine as they are . One question though... I have a knife type disconnect on the side that takes fuses as you predicted . No fuses where in there so I have nothing to go by but by the size of wire and amps the motors will pull it is safe to assume I can choose anything slightly above the amperage being pulled? Should I continue to use these style disconnects or change this over to breakers ? I'm fine with buying fuses to be honest .

If you had to guess what fuses would you choose? I will take a photo tomorrow evening of exactly what I have
There's no need to change the disconnect box. Breakers aren't necessary. The only reason that a fuse would blow is if something shorts out and that's not likely to happen unless someone makes a mistake while working on the machine's wiring. Unlike a household circuit, where you can plug too many things into a circuit and trip a breaker, the electrical load on the machine is fixed. There's no reason that a fuse will blow in normal operation.

The fuses are there to protect the wiring. The overloads protect the motors. The size of the fuse depends on the gauge of wire that was used to wire the machine. I would guess that #12 was used, in which case 20A, time delay fuses would be correct. If it's #14, use 15A fuses.

Cal
 
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