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Looking at a couple of South Bends

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kopeck

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#1
Hi,

I need a little bit of help. I currently have a Craftsman (Atlas) 6" Lathe. It's been fun bringing it back to life, I've made some parts on it that I couldn't have if I didn't have it so I can't complain but I'm quickly realizing it's limitations.

I've been looking for something bigger for a while, not necessarily a SB but something like a 9A is what I had in mind. A 9A and a Heavy 10 have come up for sale near me for pretty much the same money.

The 9A (644A) looks really clean from the pictures, a nice original machine, some of the parts are in SB boxes. I can still see scraping on the ways. It's pretty well equipped, 3 and 4 jaw, follow rest and milling attachment (something that I would like to have). It also seems to have all it's wrenches and other bits.

The Heavy 10 (CL 8187 A) isn't a looker, it's been painted and that paint is flaking off in places. It doesn't necessarily look abused mind you but pictures only tell you so much. None the less it's much more a used machine than the 9A. I know it comes with a 3 jaw chucks and some collets/drawbar. It might have more but I'm not counting on it.

I'm going to see the Heavy 10 on Sunday. There seems to be a lot of interest in it, the lady is letting me get first crack at it since I was the first to ask which is very nice of her.

I guess my question is, and maybe it's impossible to answer but what's the tipping point were the wear/tooling would make the 9A more attractive than Heavy 10? I kind of feel like if there's one or two more accessories with the Heavy 10 and it's not beat to snot it's the Heavy 10. If it is as it sits and it's a bit worn then it's far less clear. Adding things like a follow rest or a milling attachment ads up quickly as do repairs. Also, how would you know if the Heavy 10 had a hardened bed?

Sorry for the long post.

K
 

woodtickgreg

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#2
Heavy 10's with a hardened bed will have "flame hardened" cast into the bed. I would lean forward the 10 but I'm a bit biased because I own one. But it has a larger spindle bore pass through and usually will take a heavier cut too. I love my 10 but still have not found a great deal on a telescopic steady rest for it yet, they just keep going up in price. Does the 10 your looking at have the cast base or the sheet metal cabinet base?
 

kopeck

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#3
Over on the right hand side, right? I don't see it but the paint might be hiding it....

36280459_1790906077665655_8164092699180269568_n.jpg

K
 

woodtickgreg

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#4
If that's it that's got a lot of potential. I wouldn't call that horrible condition. Looks nicely tooled and has large dials and a 2 lever gear box.
 

kopeck

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#5
That's the Heavy 10 in question. It doesn't look all that bad but I can't see the bed and that where I'm worried about wear.

Here's a picture of the 9A:

00T0T_55LzrcLvwMz_1200x900.jpg
It looks really clean but it's not a Heavy 10 either....

K
 

Janderso

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#6
+1 on the 10
 

markba633csi

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#7
Actually they're both pretty good- buy em both! I'll buy one from ya LOL
The 8187 is the "toolroom" version which has/had the extra-precise leadscrew,
plus the 10 has the bigger spindle hole, bigger dials and can do 27 tpi compared to 9A
tough choice, eh? Too much of a good thing- looks like the 10 has the taper attachment too
hardened beds don't show the flaking marks- they are smooth- I think some of the early 40s/50s hardened ones are not labeled as such on bed

edit: Derf is correct, if it's hardened it will say so, I was mistaken
pss according to Doogie, I may not have been mistaken- ? he says not all hard beds were marked as such. But it's true that the carriage and tail would be still soft...
 
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derf

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#8
The flame hardened bed ways didn't come out until the late 60's, that one is earlier. Even if the wear was worse on the 10", I would still take it over the 9". The 10" is more versatile.
I have a 9A and a heavy 10 with about the same amount of wear (a lot) and it doesn't seem to handicap me from making good parts. It's all about getting to know your machine.
 

RWanke

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#9
Does the 9A have the motor/drive for it? Not seen in the pic.
 

kopeck

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#10
Does the 9A have the motor/drive for it? Not seen in the pic.
It does. It's in another picture. The lathe isn't "put together".

K
 

kopeck

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#11
The flame hardened bed ways didn't come out until the late 60's, that one is earlier. Even if the wear was worse on the 10", I would still take it over the 9". The 10" is more versatile.
I have a 9A and a heavy 10 with about the same amount of wear (a lot) and it doesn't seem to handicap me from making good parts. It's all about getting to know your machine.
I was reading and I think SB started with hardened beds before that as a option but I'm not really sure when. Not seeing scrapings sound like a quick and dirty way to tell.

I can't wait to see the 10, I'm hoping it's decent. I just don't want to buy a project, I would rather buy something that's usable.

K
 

kopeck

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#12
Actually they're both pretty good- buy em both! I'll buy one from ya LOL
The 8187 is the "toolroom" version which has/had the extra-precise leadscrew,
plus the 10 has the bigger spindle hole, bigger dials and can do 27 tpi compared to 9A
tough choice, eh? Too much of a good thing- looks like the 10 has the taper attachment too
hardened beds don't show the flaking marks- they are smooth- I think some of the early 40s/50s hardened ones are not labeled as such on bed

edit: Derf is correct, if it's hardened it will say so, I was mistaken
It does have have a taper attachment. It's a interesting problem to have. I've been looking for quiet some time and then boom, two show up.

Doing some googleing it sounds like maybe they did have hardened ways as a option. I guess it wasn't until the late 60s/70s that they were standard.

K
 

DoogieB

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#13
Not all hard bed South Bend lathes are marked with a badge. The easiest way to tell is to look for hand scraping around the head stock area where it won't wear away. The hard beds were ground, not scraped. A hard bed isn't a panacea, as the saddle and tail stock are still nice and soft and prone to wear.

The 9A has small dials, so at the latest it's early sixties? The 10L has the large dials, so it might actually be newer. Looking up the serial number would resolve this.

Since the 10L is UMD, it probably has a smaller footprint than the 9A. Never was that fond of table top lathes for that reason.

The 10L has the expanded range gear box, large dials and looks like 5C collets with the collet rack. Taper attachment as well? That's a pretty desirable SB lathe. If it's 5C collets it's definitely the big bore.

With metal working machinery, top things are: #1 condition, #2 price and #3 tooling. Nobody can tell you the condition by a photo.

Also, don't kid yourself, at best you are buying a 50+ year old lathe so you are getting a project regardless. Even the 9A, which looks pretty cherry, will at least need a felt job, which means you pretty much have to disassemble the entire lathe. That paint job on the 10L, ugh, I think I would have to strip & paint.

Good luck with your decision.
 

kopeck

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#14
DoogieB thanks for all the info.

Condition is key for me and what you said about them being 50+ year old machines is very true. I'm not expecting perfection but my little Craftsman ended up needing a lot of parts to make it work correctly and now I have a lathe that I have well more invested in than it's worth. Really though the learning experience made it all worth it but what I don't want to do it buy a machine that I'm going to have to sink a bunch of cash into just to make chips. The price on the 10L, if it's in OK condition, tooled as I see it is what I would consider fair to good. If it has more tooling and isn't worn much...well it might be a steal, at least in my area. You know I'm just going to post the price, it's fixed...someone is going to pay it if it's me or some one else. $1350.00.

The 9A sure looks like a cream puff and up until the 10L came up I was pretty excited to go look at it. I think if the 9" models had a larger spindle bore I would just get it as it probably is more than capable for what I want to do and is tooled nicely. Every time I look at that big spindle on that 10L plus the under mounted motor I think it's the machine for me though.

Sunday will settle a lot of things. :)



K

Edited to add price info.
 
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MrWhoopee

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#15
10L means that it has the large spindle bore.
My '63 10L has hardened ways, no flaking and no tag.
The collet closer is a big plus. Can't tell if it has the taper attachment. That's one of those "must have" accessories that is rarely used.

If you want pretty, get the 9. If you want a more capable machine, get the 10L.
 

MrWhoopee

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#16
double post
 

kopeck

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#17
Thanks for all the words of advice guys. Other than play in the head, chipped gears and wear in the ways are there other places I need to check on this 10L?

K
 

Silverbullet

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#18
Get the 10 , 5C collets make it well worth it over the 9" . Pluses it's stronger , bigger , all one piece cast , no added table to hold it and the motor .
Can't choose buy both . Viola
 

kopeck

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#19
I ended up passing on the lathe though it was really hard to do so.

The bed had some decent wear in it, more than enough to just catch you finger nail. The wear did seem pretty even over almost all the bed though which was interesting to me, on my little Atlas all the wear is up near the head stock. The head stock was sound, no gear issues and the spindle seemed nice and tight. The 3 jaw chuck was kind of beat up, you could see it had been crashed a few times. It's run out wasn't anything to write home about but that's 3 jaws for ya. It did come with an assortment of 5c collets though a lot of them were odd sizes. It also came with a follow rest and a stead rest which did make it much more attractive.

I think the price was right and I'm sure they sold it to the guy behind me. I had a hard time saying no, I almost said yes but at the end of the day I felt that it really needed to be completely torn down before it was used. There was plenty of rust and grime. The fellow that owned it used it for wood turning so everything was kind of sticky. I, like a lot of you I'm sure, have so many projects going on I just felt like this one was a bit more than I wanted to bite off at the moment.

I did meet some really nice people, I felt bad saying no simply because they were so accommodating. I also found out I REALLY like Heavy 10s. There's real feel of quality there, it ran quiet and smooth even with the tumblers engaged, nothing like my Atlas. I see a nice Heavy 10 as my goal at some point. I wouldn't mind paying more for one that was cleaner with less wear, more a long term investment. I might settle for a 9A or a 10K in the mean time if one comes up for the right price (I'm pretty sure the 9A I posted above sold this weekend as well). I have a few projects that are out of the scope of my little 6". I guess I might need a "bridge lathe". :)

Thanks for all the insight, I hope to become more a regular around these parts.

K
 

kopeck

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#20
Well, I solved the problem. Another SB 9A showed up online with one not so great picture. After a few questions and some extra pictures I went to take a look and ended up buying it. I hope to pick it up this week, it's in a basement so I'll have to take it out in pieces.

The selling factor was the shape it was in, it shows very little wear and it is pretty well tooled. It's also on a SB cabinet which I really like.

It's not a heavy 10 but to get a heavy around here in the same condition it was going to be 3 or so times the price I paid for the 9A. I'm excited, though not so excited to take it apart...

I'll post some pictures once I get it.

K
 

kopeck

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#21
Teaser picture....

IMG_1350.jpg

K
 

TerryH

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#22
Thread was a great read. Thanks for sharing your journey. Looks like a nice lathe. Congrats. Oh how I wish these sorts of things would show up in my area. :rolleyes:
 

Smithdoor

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#23
There advance to 9N /10K lots of tooling and. Parts can be found. Most parts on 9N are same as the 10K and the tooling.
For same shop the is better and can be move easily in the shop

The 9N is a ligher duty lathe

Dave

Hi,

I need a little bit of help. I currently have a Craftsman (Atlas) 6" Lathe. It's been fun bringing it back to life, I've made some parts on it that I couldn't have if I didn't have it so I can't complain but I'm quickly realizing it's limitations.

I've been looking for something bigger for a while, not necessarily a SB but something like a 9A is what I had in mind. A 9A and a Heavy 10 have come up for sale near me for pretty much the same money.

The 9A (644A) looks really clean from the pictures, a nice original machine, some of the parts are in SB boxes. I can still see scraping on the ways. It's pretty well equipped, 3 and 4 jaw, follow rest and milling attachment (something that I would like to have). It also seems to have all it's wrenches and other bits.

The Heavy 10 (CL 8187 A) isn't a looker, it's been painted and that paint is flaking off in places. It doesn't necessarily look abused mind you but pictures only tell you so much. None the less it's much more a used machine than the 9A. I know it comes with a 3 jaw chucks and some collets/drawbar. It might have more but I'm not counting on it.

I'm going to see the Heavy 10 on Sunday. There seems to be a lot of interest in it, the lady is letting me get first crack at it since I was the first to ask which is very nice of her.

I guess my question is, and maybe it's impossible to answer but what's the tipping point were the wear/tooling would make the 9A more attractive than Heavy 10? I kind of feel like if there's one or two more accessories with the Heavy 10 and it's not beat to snot it's the Heavy 10. If it is as it sits and it's a bit worn then it's far less clear. Adding things like a follow rest or a milling attachment ads up quickly as do repairs. Also, how would you know if the Heavy 10 had a hardened bed?

Sorry for the long post.

K
 

kopeck

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#24
Thread was a great read. Thanks for sharing your journey. Looks like a nice lathe. Congrats. Oh how I wish these sorts of things would show up in my area. :rolleyes:
I know machinery does have "hot spots" across the country but Maine probably isn't high on the list and I was able to make a purchase I'm happy with. Just keep looking. I started casually almost as soon as I bought my Craftsman last summer. A lot of that was needing parts but I got a feel for what was out there. The selection was pretty thin for the last few months then stuff just started popping up. I've been looking on Craigs List and the Facebook Marketplace. This lathe came off Facebook, I tend to see better deals there for some reason.

Like I said above a Heavy 10 would have been ideal but for my budget a good one didn't fit unless some crazy deal showed up (which they do from time to time) or it was worn pretty well. I settled for this 9A and I'm happy, the more I look at it the better shape it's in. The cross slide and compound have very little back lash, the ways other than the scraping marks being a bit worn off near the headstock shows zero ridge. It's a good tight machine. It's also pretty well tooled, 3 & 4 jaw (the 4 jaw looks like it just came out of it's package), collets, drive plate and a pile of drive dogs, micrometer carriage stop, steady rest, full set of arm strong tool holders and a turret type holder plus all the original wrenches and some miscellaneous HHS and the other random stuff lathes often come with. Tooling was just as important to me as condition, adding stuff after the fact gets expensive quickly! The only thing I would like to add is a follow rest and I'll probably jump for a quick change tool post once I get everything up and going. I'm lucky that this machine came in under my budget so I do have some wiggle room and I hope to sell my Craftsman to recoup a bit more.

Sorry, that got long winded. I guess what I would say is wait and get something your comfortable with, don't buy a unit just because it's there.

K
 

DoogieB

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#25
We expect better pictures! :)

Condition and tooling means a lot. Looks like it's on the same cabinet as my lathe. This will certainly be a big upgrade from your 6" Craftsman.

A QCTP is really nice. While I've used the steady rest many times over the years, I have yet to attach the follow rest. I would also highly recommend a Shars magnetic-back dial indicator for measuring saddle travel.
 

Smithdoor

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#26
The Harding bed way good if forget to oil

The swing of 9N is 9 1/4" and the 10L is 10 1/8" very close
Swing over the cross slide is almost the same too 9N is 5 1/2" and 10L is 5 7/8"

My self I own 4 sb 9N each time I think I do need a small lathe when I had larger new lathes. They just work great for small work over a larger lathe.

If ever buy a larger lathe DO NOT sell the 9N

Dave
It does have have a taper attachment. It's a interesting problem to have. I've been looking for quiet some time and then boom, two show up.

Doing some googleing it sounds like maybe they did have hardened ways as a option. I guess it wasn't until the late 60s/70s that they were standard.

K
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kopeck

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#27
We expect better pictures! :)

Condition and tooling means a lot. Looks like it's on the same cabinet as my lathe. This will certainly be a big upgrade from your 6" Craftsman.

A QCTP is really nice. While I've used the steady rest many times over the years, I have yet to attach the follow rest. I would also highly recommend a Shars magnetic-back dial indicator for measuring saddle travel.
I will, promise!

My Craftsman didn't come with any tool post so I bought an OXA kit from The Little Machine Shop. It's all I've ever used. The lantern will work just fine in the mean time but I suspect I'm going to be missing the quick change.

Yeah, those mag base indicators look slick. I'll have to add one to my wants list!

K
 

DoogieB

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#28
It will take you about a week to get sick of the lantern after using a QCTP. :)

It seems Shars is out-of-stock of the combo right now on Ebay, but here's the store link for future reference:

http://www.shars.com/products/measu...ds/magnetic-indicator-back-w-1-dial-indicator

IMHO, of all the cheap dial indicators the ones from Shars are by far the most legible. I should probably pick up another as a spare.

Here's a random picture of one in use.

magind.jpg
 

Superburban

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#29
Agreed, I have that same magnetic indicator. My go-to tool for a lot of things. Works easily for the saddle as shown, or the compound. I also slap it to the QCTP, and use it for centering parts in the 4 jaw. My Shop fox, has a flat top on the tail stock, so that is the indicators home. As I get things going on my SB 16", I'll get one for it.

I like having both the Atlas 6", and the shop fox 13", But I think the SB will be my main lathe when I get it going, save the Shop Fox for the stuff that needs accuracy, that the well worn SB can't do.
 

Smithdoor

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#30
If ever want the book How to Run a Lathe
I have about 10 books left that slowly selling
Back in the 80'S I give the to all my employees and had few left

Dave

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